About Matthias Shaw and his weird takes (for a spymaster).

[VladlTutushkin]

Credit for giving me that idea goes to Ainh, a dwarf fan and Alliance of Lordaeron supporter, however misguided he can be at times in his zeal.

So, Mathias Shaw, the leader of the SI7 and generally man in charge of Alliance spy network and other cloak and dagger operations. The Man of Mystery... supposedly. So far only mystery about his is how that babbling, bumbling baboon managed to end up as the head spymaster of the whole Alliance.

Aside from his many, many fuckups on the spying front there is one thing in particular that struck me as odd and dumb.

He talks shit about Garithos (in a clumsy attempt from the writers to whitewash the Forsaken which just fails entirely because EVEN IF we decide that "he was rude and racist" is a good reason for betrayal and murder that still does not excuse killing his army and other Lordaeron survivors with them). But even ALL THAT aside... Isnt that a bit weird how a SPY MASTER throws shade at a commander for... underhanded actions and agendas? So... he criticizes Garithose's morality and his moral choices and etc, while being a leader of a secret service.

So what, he , as a spy, a master of spies in fact, thinks that underhanded decisions, secret agendas, morally questionable choices and ruthlessness is... wrong? That would explain a lot why his and his agents work is so laughably inefficient and fucked. Imagine being a spy who operates without ruthlessness, deception, morally dubious tricks and without having several different agendas in mind.

[Soon-TM]

<snip>

Matt is just another poor soul who has fallen prey to Anduinism. You cannot possibly have any subordinates of Our Treasure doing shady, or even questionable things now, can you? Him trashtalking Garithos is just icing on the cake.

[Feanoro]

This just in, Blizz knows jack shit about intelligence agencies, black ops, and so on. Shocking I know, given their deep understanding of warfare, military tactics and strategy, agriculture, sanitation, food to population requirements, logistics, economics...

[VladlTutushkin]

This just in, Blizz knows jack shit about intelligence agencies, black ops, and so on. Shocking I know, given their deep understanding of warfare, military tactics and strategy, agriculture, sanitation, food to population requirements, logistics, economics...

Even for people who watched a single Bond movie or read a single shitty spy novel it will be clear that SPIES BE DOING SHADY THINGS.

Blizz seem to be dumber then literal single cell organisms by now.

[Al Gorefiend]

SI:7 is just from back when Blizzard needed to create a human faction for each possible class

[Mehrunes]

I'm pretty sure he condemned Garithos for being a racist ass-hat that cost the Alliance Quel'Thalas by throwing the Blood Elves to the Scourge simply because he hated them, not "underhanded actions and agendas".

On top of that, even if this still technically classifies as a "morally questionable choices", it's not the kind of morally questionable choice that's relevant to the work of a spymaster or even a military commander. Garithos simply let his prejudice drive his actions, shooting the Alliance in the foot in the process. Meanwhile the morally dubious work of spymasters is supposed to be for the benefit of their nation. Kinda a significant difference.

Furthermore, even if he condemned Garithos for what you projected at him, Garithos was the leader of the Alliance at the time. His position required a different approach than that of a spymaster, particularly in regards to politics. A spymaster has the benefit of working from the shadows, where their underhanded antics remain hidden. Garithos was a public figure and his methods alienated his allies. Which was particularly damning under the dire circumstances. So even if you weren't misrepresenting Shaw's commentary, you'd still comparing apples to oranges.

Don't get me wrong, Shaw is still a terrible person for the job, vide all the times he and his SI:7 had been made utter fools by the Alliance's enemies. The biggest offender being the time when he listened to Anduin's utter idiocy and agreed to send his agents to Orgrimmar while ordering them to make their presence known to Sylvanas, which allowed her to feed the Alliance whatever bullshit spectacle she wanted. But this thread has squat to do with that and instead is "Alliance posters twisting the lore only to then cry about what they headcanoned into existence" thread #523407629376423.

[Shadowtwili]

Garithos was the leader of the Alliance at the time.

Source?

Because the Alliance saw Garithos as the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron's military at best and a very succesful warlord at worst.

By that logic you could sooner say Jaina was the leader of the Alliance at the time since she led the survivors of Lordaeron, with fleets from the other major nations, to Kalimdor.

Ignorant of Garithos' policies, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge sent him aid, recognizing him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government, and certainly the strongest warlord in the area.

~Ask CDev Answers - Round 3

[Ardenaso]

friendly reminder that's Shaw's incompetence is one of the greatest reasons for the Night Elf genocide

[Powerogue]

When did he talk shit about Garithos?

I mean, that immediately makes me like him more, but I can't find it on his wowpedia page.

I mean, talking shit about Garithos is basically a WoW character rite of passage.







And of course, my absolute favorite:

[Soon-TM]

I mean, talking shit about Garithos is basically a WoW character rite of passage.

Maybe in WC3. In WoW proper, there aren't any references to him, which is extremely jarring in some parts of the game such as the Forsaken and especially the Blood Elf starting zones. You'd expect belfs to remember very clearly the name of the guy who almost got their prince killed... But he isn't even mentioned.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Maybe in WC3. In WoW proper, there aren't any references to him, which is extremely jarring in some parts of the game such as the Forsaken and especially the Blood Elf starting zones. You'd expect belfs to remember very clearly the name of the guy who almost got their prince killed... But he isn't even mentioned.

Most of those people probably died or followed Kael. Its been awhile but I feel like Kaels story goes from going to help the Alliance to being in jail to being on the run essentially. I doubt they would just start erecting "we hate Garithos" monuments.

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Even for people who watched a single Bond movie or read a single shitty spy novel it will be clear that SPIES BE DOING SHADY THINGS.

Blizz seem to be dumber then literal single cell organisms by now.

Being racist is different than "spy shit."

[Rozz]

Probably because doing shady stuff that's ultimately against their best interest vs shady stuff for their greater benefit is different...
Plus Shaw didn't intentionally ever act to widdle down his own allied forces and was loyal to the needs of the nation. Garithos was loyal to his own self-interests.

[Biomega]

If anything, a severe case of myopia when it comes to your own actions vs. other people's is a standard characteristic of many spymasters. What you do is always justified, while what others do is misguided or dangerous. Comfortable head space to live in, I guess.

That's how many real-world intelligence agencies work, too. If the CIA 'marginalizes' someone it's a righteous act in the name of democracy; if Russia does it, it's a vicious assault on freedom. And so on and so forth. And I'm sure that extends to hierarchies within the agency, too, where your own ops are all brilliant strokes of genius, while other people's ops are foolhardy risk-taking.

[Vaedan]

Don't get me wrong, Shaw is still a terrible person for the job, vide all the times he and his SI:7 had been made utter fools by the Alliance's enemies. The biggest offender being the time when he listened to Anduin's utter idiocy and agreed to send his agents to Orgrimmar while ordering them to make their presence known to Sylvanas, which allowed her to feed the Alliance whatever bullshit spectacle she wanted. But this thread has squat to do with that and instead is "Alliance posters twisting the lore only to then cry about what they headcanoned into existence" thread #523407629376423.

Don't forget that humans are major espionage force within the Alliance, completely forgeting night elves, (who are natural masters of stealth), worgen (who have been shown to be pretty stealthy too and their physique allows them to easily climb, vault and infiltrate), gnomes (who have superior tech and their small size also works well for being hard to notice) and void elves (who have the ability to open Void rifts, which they used many times already in Fourth War to infiltrate various hard to get places).

Shaw become poor parody of James Bond and as you say, he was doomed to serve as a sidekick to beloved character of a writer largely responsible for story development.

[melzas]

So Shaw is a shit spy because he doesn't like racist Garithos? What is this thread, some form of convoluted racism apologism?

[Garymorilix]

They want Shaw to simultaniously be a happy little buddy-cop movie character and a ruthless spymaster who sends weapons secretly to an old-god worhsipping blood fanatic group of crazed trolls just because it provides an advantage in the war.

See, the second one makes sense and it would actually make his character in-universe interesting in a fantasy setting but Blizzard for some reason thinks a ruthless spymaster daydreaming about green grass fields in his inner monologue is "more interesting".
Also, for some reason he was the candidate for being the token gay character. Which again, must be much more interesting in a fantasy game then doing actual spymaster things.

[Newname1234567890]

I remember all the times in Bond films where he drops racistat slurs. Since as we know being a morally dubious spy and being racists are the same sort of immortality.

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So Shaw is a shit spy because he doesn't like racist Garithos? What is this thread, some form of convoluted racism apologism?

It does feel like OP thinks racism is ok

[Surfd]

Maybe in WC3. In WoW proper, there aren't any references to him, which is extremely jarring in some parts of the game such as the Forsaken and especially the Blood Elf starting zones. You'd expect belfs to remember very clearly the name of the guy who almost got their prince killed... But he isn't even mentioned.

Probably because almost none of the Quel-thelas elves have ever even heard of the guy?

I mean, the events in WC3 were basically:
- Kael is out of the city with his army doing shit when they run into Garithos, who conscripts their force under the name of the Alliance.
- Kael then runs several missions under Garitho's command, before being sent out on a suicide mission.
- Kael survives the suicide mission with the help of Vashj, which gets his entire army locked up by Garithos, awaiting execution for "treason".
- Kael escapes to outland with his army.

It isn't until a long time later (basically the events that kick off the TBC expantion) that Kael returns to Quel'thalas, but he's basically a puppet of the legion by that point.

In the intervening time his people basically have absolutely no idea where he has been, and I doubt Kael or his propagandists actually told the Elves in Quel'thalas what went down with Garithos.

[Combatbutler]

Probably because almost none of the Quel-thelas elves have ever even heard of the guy?

Rommath was part of that group, so the elves in Quel'thalas knew about it in detail, the moment he returned to rebuild the nation and teach the population how to drain magic.

[Nerovar]

Didn't Garithos almost retake Lordaeron for the humans?

Yeah, totally makes sense that humans would hate him.