Page 12 of 21 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
... LastLast
  1. #221
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Azores, Portugal
    Posts
    11,257
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    So first not "mentions or depictions" but OFFENSIVE mentions and depictions. That's why blizzard is removing them. (And no I'm not saying that humour should be banned or outlawed. But I get why blizzard don't want them in thier 12+ game)

    Anyway moving on you get how race/gender etc of a person is different then car accidents and Sucuide (depending on the reason)? (I grant you depression as a mental illness falls in with my examples). One group are awful events that happen and another are the core of people identities?Hence by joking on what set you are inherently joking about people indentities?

    - - - Updated - - -
    Doesn't matter.

    Read my accusation above.

    We're talking about situations that may be triggering to others. My oldest brother died in a car crash. My mother suffered from depression and tried to commit suicide. I could very well embark on a campaign to have these things removed cause they trigger me. Alas, they do not. Would you like to know why? Because infantilizing and fragilizing people is definitely the subpar way to empower people.

    That's what you're suggest people do and endorse. To put a blanket over certain things because of the risk they might offend someone.

    And to reiterate my other point once again. Stop. Please stop. You are not talking on the behalf on anyone else other than yourself. You're banking on the vague notion that you'll find your opinion endorsed by others and that somehow validates your stance.

    Also, what was that we called painting groups of people in broad strokes? What is it that we can possible call treating people in a homogenous way, assuming that they all share the same opinions, beliefs, and traits? I wonder what we call that.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoto View Post
    The trans character that was never considered trans, just a man dressing up as a female to escape the law. A character people like you are obsessed with being trans because it better fits your agenda.

    That last part you posted is actually giving me brain damage trying to understand how you come to that conclusion, maybe I should stop reading your posts if I want to live longer. As I said before, you are the perfect definition of square pegs round holes.
    The character that underwent extensive medical procedures in order to convincingly present as female.



    And I'll repeat it again, because apparently I need to. Whether or not Finkle/Einhorn is actually trans is not the point. I'll try to demonstrate it nice and simple.

    Version 1: Finkle is faking
    • Presents the idea of a man pretending to be a woman to do crimes - a transphobic idea that has been used repeatedly to deny trans woman fair treatment.
    • Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you accidentally did a gay thing as the "normal" reaction (since it's not just Ace, an outlier, that has that reaction) - this is homophobic. It's literally stating that a man's lips touching another man's lips is "sickening".
    • Ace's reaction to discovering the "truth" of Finkle's identity, that entire scene playing out like he had just been a victim of rape... classic gay panic. "The gay man tricked him into kissing! That's comparable to rape!"


    Version 2: Einhorn is really trans
    • Has characters, including the main character with whom we are supposed to sympathise and agree, insisting that the trans woman isn't really a woman because she still has "Sargeant Winky". There's two ways to take that. It's either saying "you're not a real woman unless you're born a woman" or it's saying "you're not a real woman unless you've had the surgery". both of those are transphobic.
    • Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you kissed a trans person as a normal reaction. I should think that's pretty obviously transphobic.
    • And Ace's reaction to the revelation. Treating the fact that he unknowingly kissed a trans woman as equivalent to having been raped is super gross.






    Hell, let's go past all of that and just look at Finkle/Einhorn as a character.
    Either he's a gay man who pretends to be a woman to "trick" straight men into sexual encounters, or she's a trans woman who predates on unsuspecting straight male victims.

    One of those is homophobic as shit, the other is transphobic as shit.

    I'm sorry - I love the movie, but its big twist has aged phenomenally fucking poorly. Something I believe even the writers themselves have admitted.

  3. #223
    Lmao I only check back once a month to see if anything is being done to the game that's worth resubbing for and after half a year the best we got is finklehorn and defatassmo saying something about train rights?

    Okay see you all in 2022.

  4. #224
    I really enjoy watching this shitshow from a distance, and by this i mean a distance from the game and that kind of extreme woke culture. Personally i consider that treating any human being as a snowflake based on any trait is way more offensive than any silly joke from a silly movie. And yes, jokes can be offensive because in the end jokes are mostly not targeted towards particular individuals but towards stereotypes that exist for everything. Learning this and learning the difference between a joke an an insult will help way more than removing stuff that you think it's offensive but in reality no one, not even those who you think are offended, gives a fuck about it or is offended by it.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Gangresnake View Post
    How is this mega-yikes ? He's a straight man that was tricked into kissing another man. He has a right to feel disgusted. What happened to "consent matters" ?
    Oh, don't get me wrong. Informed consent does matter, and Ace absolutely has the right to feel violated in that moment. But presenting "I accidentally kissed a gay" as "I was raped" is super gay-panic-y and gross.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Doesn't matter.

    Read my accusation above.

    We're talking about situations that may be triggering to others. My oldest brother died in a car crash. My mother suffered from depression and tried to commit suicide. I could very well embark on a campaign to have these things removed cause they trigger me. Alas, they do not. Would you like to know why? Because infantilizing and fragilizing people is definitely the subpar way to empower people.

    That's what you're suggest people do and endorse. To put a blanket over certain things because of the risk they might offend someone.

    And to reiterate my other point once again. Stop. Please stop. You are not talking on the behalf on anyone else other than yourself. You're banking on the vague notion that you'll find your opinion endorsed by others and that somehow validates your stance.

    Also, what was that we called painting groups of people in broad strokes? What is it that we can possible call treating people in a homogenous way, assuming that they all share the same opinions, beliefs, and traits? I wonder what we call that.
    It does matter. But I'll engage with your situation.

    Right ok yes of course if you wanted to you would be well within your rights to do so. However people's whose family's die in car crashes aren't systematicly opressed by society. Sucuide is a different story. But fundementally it's not just about "triggering" context matters. Negative deceptions (based on the identities in question) enforce the society's negative view on minorities.

    No I understand that a company might want to remove offensive depictions. I also understand some things aren't also appropriate. Barney the dinosaur doesn't need to be making suicide joeks where as south park could. If they feel like throwing up trigger warnings good it means people can find Media they enjoy.

    You're just wrong there. I'm talking on my own opinions I make no claims about anyone else. My opinion is wow doesn't need offensive depictions of minorities. And yes offensive by my own measure which I agrue for.

    People can be grouped by shared characteristics or material conditions. Doing so isn't whatever insert-ism you're getting at. Being prejudice a group would be
    Last edited by Newname1234567890; 2021-10-14 at 11:36 AM.

  7. #227
    Meanwhile on FFXIV you have a char who was sold as s child to be a prostitute but i was done tastefully and with a good narrative behind

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoto View Post
    "The fact that they present as female, got gender reassigning surgery,"

    You said this, then changed your mind. You talk that much shit you forget what you say. Unless the GRS was his jawline and shoulders? lmao.
    *Sigh*.

    Dude.

    Breast implants. Skeletal feminization.

    There's more to your body than just your dick.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy View Post
    Presents the idea of a man pretending to be a woman to do crimes - a transphobic idea that has been used repeatedly to deny trans woman fair treatment.
    It's not a transphobic idea. It's a thing that men have actually been doing since forever. Numerous examples can be found in seconds. Should this not be portrayed in films anymore?

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Reasonman View Post
    Yeah to evade the police capture Einhorn had a lot of expensive surgery done to present as a woman. Now I will say this: I am a cis white male, if I so will myself to get gender reassignment surgery to evade the police (As ridiculous as it is, I'd rather just go to Mexico. but then again I don't have a revenge complex so I am not Einhorn.) am I now trans?
    Nah. I'm just trying to say that there isn't actually anything in-movie to suggest that Einhorn wasn't really trans, on top of being a criminal. The only suggestion that they're faking it comes from Ace himself, who clearly isn't an objective source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reasonman View Post
    Agree with you right here! I highly doubt Jim Carrey is some deep closeted transphobe. Maybe one day some dirt will leak but for now he is alright. haha.
    For sure. Aside from seemingly biting into the whole "vaccines cause autism" thing, Carrey seems wholesome as fuck. I'd hate to live in a world where it comes out that he's actually not.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by reemi View Post
    Ah wait.. anything related with sex/genre is bad but killing is okay? Soon we won't be allowed to kill in this game.
    Nah it's USA. Killing is OK as long as you don't say sex innuendos.

    Also, if you're male, you can perfectly go with only a loincloth, but if you go with a bikini is sexist:


  12. #232
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Azores, Portugal
    Posts
    11,257
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    It does matter. But I'll engage with your situation.

    Right ok yes of course if you wanted to you would be well within your rights to do so. However people's whose family's die in car crashes aren't systematicly opressed by society. Sucuide is a different story. But fundementally it's not just about "triggering" context matters.

    No I understand that a company might want to remove offensive depictions. I also understand some things aren't also appropriate. Barney the dinosaur doesn't need to be making suicide joeks where as south park could.

    You're just wrong there. I'm talking on my own opinions I make no claims about anyone else. My opinion is wow doesn't need offensive depictions of minorities. And yes offensive by my own measure which I agrue for.

    People can be grouped by shared characteristics or material conditions. Doing so isn't whatever insert-ism you're getting at. Being prejudice a group would be
    Then we're back to the same things.

    First of all, let's get the "offensive depictions" out of the way part, as well as the "appropriate". You cannot make this claim by yourself without having to contrast it with the experience of the specific person that might feel that way. As such, you took the "offended" route, in so far, you chose to assume that were you in someone else's shoes you'd find such depictions offensive.

    Your remark My opinion is wow doesn't need offensive depictions of minorities. reinforces the comment above. Your assertions aren't made in a vacuum.

    Furthermore, your position just reinforces one of my main criticisms (and overall positions): that you find the continuous fragilization of people to be the optimal path. Yes, I know you did not say that, but that's what it is. The removal of things, anything, that might contribute to making someone uncomfortable (yes there are exception where it takes longer) doesn't help in empowering them.

    It's the complete opposite. It infantilizes, fragilizes, and frankly it's patronizing to them. What is more condescending than people asking for protection for minorities because such "attacks" fragilizes them? I'm dumbfounded that such self-promoted guardians do not see - or more accurately refuse to see - how incredibly patronizing they actually are.

    As for your last point, that is also wrong, once more, reinforced by your previously quoted remark. You're assuming that "minorities" all share of the same emotional and cognitive space, therefore making outrage their only possible response to such situations. Let's not forget that "minorities" is a statement of size. Do you not see how bigoted it is to pain a large swathe of people in the same way because they share in the same collective label? It robs them of their individuality.

    And that's a central point here, the negation of people's individuality in order to push something that aligns with an idea that has been decided for them

  13. #233
    god, this is all sooo /yawn

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It's not a transphobic idea. It's a thing that men have actually been doing since forever. Numerous examples can be found in seconds. Should this not be portrayed in films anymore?
    It's happened less times than... anything, really? I literally can't think of a single thing that has happened less times than "man pretends to be woman to do crimes".

    Maybe we should at least stop portraying it until people stop using it as an excuse to deny trans people fair, equal treatment?

  15. #235
    The character that underwent extensive medical procedures in order to convincingly present as female.
    That doesn't make you trans. So I will go ahead and say, no Finkle was definitely not trans. Wearing an elaborate and expensive costume is what was happening. And why he not trans? Mental state. Which has never been established. Which we went over.

    And I'll repeat it again, because apparently I need to. Whether or not Finkle/Einhorn is actually trans is not the point. I'll try to demonstrate it nice and simple.

    Version 1: Finkle is faking
    Presents the idea of a man pretending to be a woman to do crimes - a transphobic idea that has been used repeatedly to deny trans woman fair treatment.
    Where is there a recording, in any form of media, where transwomen were directly marginalized using the reasoning that, "You are just a man pretending to be a woman so you can commit crimes." Not a ad hoc rationalization but a direct reference.

    Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you accidentally did a gay thing as the "normal" reaction (since it's not just Ace, an outlier, that has that reaction) - this is homophobic. It's literally stating that a man's lips touching another man's lips is "sickening".
    This totally. I rewatched that clip and yeah that does come off as homophobic.

    Ace's reaction to discovering the "truth" of Finkle's identity, that entire scene playing out like he had just been a victim of rape... classic gay panic. "The gay man tricked him into kissing! That's comparable to rape!"
    I am sorry but this reaching. Remember Ace's character is extreme. Zany, over the top, energetic. Overacting is kind of his thing. You may perceive this as a slight against trans people, but it isn't.

    Version 2: Einhorn is really trans
    Has characters, including the main character with whom we are supposed to sympathise and agree, insisting that the trans woman isn't really a woman because she still has "Sargeant Winky". There's two ways to take that. It's either saying "you're not a real woman unless you're born a woman" or it's saying "you're not a real woman unless you've had the surgery". both of those are transphobic.
    Finkle isn't trans but again context, there isn't a overarching message of transwomen not being women. There is your interpretation however.


    Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you kissed a trans person as a normal reaction. I should think that's pretty obviously transphobic.
    This is in the same family as the homophobic comment and I agree with that.

    And Ace's reaction to the revelation. Treating the fact that he unknowingly kissed a trans woman as equivalent to having been raped is super gross.
    His overraction is his character.

    You really have the same three points of contention you just paint it as either homophobe or transphobe pending on whether or not Ray Finhorn is trans (he isn't by the way.)

    And all of them, except for the second point in both scenarios are just reaching.

    Hell, let's go past all of that and just look at Finkle/Einhorn as a character.
    Either he's a gay man who pretends to be a woman to "trick" straight men into sexual encounters, or she's a trans woman who predates on unsuspecting straight male victims.

    One of those is homophobic as shit, the other is transphobic as shit.
    Do homosexuals and transsexuals sexually assault people? Obviously not every single member of these communities but are there bad apples among the people? If so it is a depiction of a despicable character. Which yeah it is bad to force yourself unto someone regardless of your gender or sexual preferences.

  16. #236
    He turned replies off on the tweet. Guess he didn't want to know transpeople have rights already.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy View Post
    Nah. I'm just trying to say that there isn't actually anything in-movie to suggest that Einhorn wasn't really trans, on top of being a criminal. The only suggestion that they're faking it comes from Ace himself, who clearly isn't an objective source.

    For sure. Aside from seemingly biting into the whole "vaccines cause autism" thing, Carrey seems wholesome as fuck. I'd hate to live in a world where it comes out that he's actually not.
    Damnit he thinks vaccines cause autism? My life... oh well he is nearly ok. Hahahah

    There is no evidence that he was trans either. And the null position is the default we don't believe things unless we have evidence to confirm it or increases the likelihood of it. Which in earlier conversations we established some ways that could have been expressed.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Reasonman View Post
    That doesn't make you trans. So I will go ahead and say, no Finkle was definitely not trans. Wearing an elaborate and expensive costume is what was happening. And why he not trans? Mental state. Which has never been established. Which we went over.
    I'm saying that there's no reason to believe they're not trans. They go to great lengths to present as female, and the only thing "deconfirming" them as trans is Ace himself saying so.
    The movie claims Finkle was sent to a mental hospital and was "completely insane", but that's just what the 90's would've said about a mentally unstable person who also happens to be trans.

    The whole "getting cosmetic surgery and stealing someone's identity" thing, too. Finkle could've done all that and stolen the identity of a man. But no, "he" chose a woman specifically.


    All that said, if the writers ever said their intention was for Finkle to not be trans, I'd believe it. I'm just saying that distinction is not well-presented in the movie itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reasonman View Post
    Where is there a recording, in any form of media, where transwomen were directly marginalized using the reasoning that, "You are just a man pretending to be a woman so you can commit crimes." Not a ad hoc rationalization but a direct reference.
    Dude, do you not remember all the panic over letting trans people use their preferred public bathrooms? It was only a few years ago.
    "But what if a man pretends to be trans to do crimes in the public bathroom?!" was all fuckin' over the place. And it was used exclusively to oppose allowing trans people to use their preferred bathrooms.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy View Post
    How is "I accidentally kissed a trans person so now I'm going to vomit and cry in a corner" not transphobic?
    It's not about the trans person.
    It's about a hetrosexual penis wielding person attracted to other humans with a vagina, who comes to the realization that the person he kissed in fact also wields a penis. This does not align with his sexuality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy View Post
    You can kiss someone you're not attracted to and NOT feel the need to vomit uncontrollably.
    Yes, yes you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixxy View Post
    Imagine the scene playing out exactly the same way, except instead of "she has a winky", the joke was "her skin is darker than you thought it was". Would you still be defending that?
    That is so unreasonably far away I don't even understand how you can ask this question.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Reasonman View Post
    Damnit he thinks vaccines cause autism? My life... oh well he is nearly ok. Hahahah
    Yeah. He's expressed that he's against injecting "neurotoxins" into children, but... eh. No one's perfect. He's not ENTIRELY antivax, he just bought into the "we're poisoning children" part of antivaxery.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cayumi View Post
    It's not about the trans person.
    It's about a hetrosexual penis wielding person attracted to other humans with a vagina, who comes to the realization that the person he kissed in fact also wields a penis. This does not align with his sexuality.
    And it's not about the sexuality. It's about the massive overreaction. Not just from Ace, but from all the "normal" people in the police force at the end of the movie.
    The film presents "painful projectile vomiting" as a normal, default response to "accidentally kissed the wrong gender".

    That's the part I take (admittedly minor) issue with.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •