WoW Classic - Season of Mastery Updates, Finkle Einhorn Renamed to Pip Quickwit

[TheRevenantHero]

Pretty much this.

It's Jim Carrey. He is the literal KING of over-exaggeration. Did people just watch this movie in a fricking bubble, and ignore *literally* every other reaction he has in the film?

Oh wait, yeh, because that fits the narrative.

It wasn't JUST Jim. At the end of the movie, there was a whole room of EVERYONE doing it.

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Identity theft and disguise aren't transphobic.

It's almost like you didn't actually read what I said. I explained why it's transphobic. Read the whole comment instead of skimming.

[Yarathir]

The only thing this exemplarily of is of this relatively recent archetype of the individual seeking some type of validation by signaling his allyship online. Pathetic

It's quite a peculiar phenomenon, isn't it?

Heavily fed into by social media and the way it rewards seeking dopamine rushes from retweets and likes/favorites/whatever.

[Darknessvamp]

This name change has probably been done for the dumbest reason so far and I honestly thought the most offensive thing about this character was his introduction by Vore. Ah well can't wait for everyone to realise the inevitable deadnaming jokes to arise as a result of this stupidity.

Also is it really a plus when I can still make fun of Pelagos for being a brain washed cult member yet the only thing he remembers to care about is that he could become a blue man group member in death?

[Yarathir]

Ok let me rephrase. It's just like if a white guy is making really fucked up and racist comments about black men. It's called "punching down".

Only incorrigible ideologues think "punching down" is a thing.

[FelPlague]

I mean... you can only reply to this Des Mephisto's tweets if he tags you in the tweets. That says a lot about the kind of mentality he has if he abstains from seeing anyone's point of view that doesn't agree with him.

he had to set that up becuase his earlier tweet about it was filled with fucking disgusting responses, nevermind the fact his dm's are filled with them too...

[Yarathir]

All you're doing is trying to trivialize how damaging to the trans community that "joke" in the first Ace Ventura movie is. That's all. Either that or you are ignorant to the exceptionally toxic attitude people have against trans individuals in the USA. There are still NUMEROUS states that allow the trans panic defense and shit like the Finkle "joke" just help reinforce it.

Not really directly related to the discussion anymore, but that entire thing can't exist if trans people are upfront about it in the first place.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

The character that underwent extensive medical procedures in order to convincingly present as female.



And I'll repeat it again, because apparently I need to. Whether or not Finkle/Einhorn is actually trans is not the point. I'll try to demonstrate it nice and simple.

Version 1: Finkle is faking

• Presents the idea of a man pretending to be a woman to do crimes - a transphobic idea that has been used repeatedly to deny trans woman fair treatment.
• Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you accidentally did a gay thing as the "normal" reaction (since it's not just Ace, an outlier, that has that reaction) - this is homophobic. It's literally stating that a man's lips touching another man's lips is "sickening".
• Ace's reaction to discovering the "truth" of Finkle's identity, that entire scene playing out like he had just been a victim of rape... classic gay panic. "The gay man tricked him into kissing! That's comparable to rape!"

Version 2: Einhorn is really trans

• Has characters, including the main character with whom we are supposed to sympathise and agree, insisting that the trans woman isn't really a woman because she still has "Sargeant Winky". There's two ways to take that. It's either saying "you're not a real woman unless you're born a woman" or it's saying "you're not a real woman unless you've had the surgery". both of those are transphobic.
• Presents exaggerated vomiting after finding out you kissed a trans person as a normal reaction. I should think that's pretty obviously transphobic.
• And Ace's reaction to the revelation. Treating the fact that he unknowingly kissed a trans woman as equivalent to having been raped is super gross.

Hell, let's go past all of that and just look at Finkle/Einhorn as a character.
Either he's a gay man who pretends to be a woman to "trick" straight men into sexual encounters, or she's a trans woman who predates on unsuspecting straight male victims.

One of those is homophobic as shit, the other is transphobic as shit.

I'm sorry - I love the movie, but its big twist has aged phenomenally fucking poorly. Something I believe even the writers themselves have admitted.

I'm sorry, but that is the normal reaction. Maybe slightly exaggerated for comedic effect, but it's normal. And it's not homophobic or transphobic (at least not if you're willing to be reasonable). Kissing a dude is gross to most straight men. Kissing a biological male who just identifies as a female is gross to most straight men. That is the normal reaction. Sorry if you don't like it - that's just the way it is.

That aside - stop trying to twist jokes into "harmful messages" by over-analyzing them and projecting the most sinister possible motivations onto the writers. Stop trying to police people's mindsets / ideas.

[TheRevenantHero]

Nope, that is you reading FAR too much into it. It is a light-hearted comedy, where a guy literally just steals an identity. The gender is irrelevant.

Women dress as men in order to get into football matches in Iraq. Is that transphobic? A woman dressing as a male character from a TV show, is that transphobic? A woman pretending to be a man to evade police in a light hearted kids adventure?
Is "Yentl" with Barbara Streisand where she pretends to be a man to get religious training transphobic? Is "Victor Victoria" where Julie Andrews pretends to be a boy transphobic? Both of these being MAJOR gay and trans community icons btw...

Literally none of what you have said is anything but your own view and mentality literally twisting a light-hearted kids movie to fit some hate narrative you have in order to preach whatever bullshit you are selling.

It doesn't paint anything unless you read that into it. The only bigot here, is yourself, sad to say, and I am done with this shit before it even starts.

lmfao wow. Really going to pull the whole "I'm not a bigot! The real bigot is you!" None of the examples you gave have ANYTHING to do with what happened in Ace Ventura. But go off I guess.

[StillMcfuu]

I'm going to blow minds here and actually explain why Finkle Einhorn is potentially offensive.

The character is not Trans, number one, that's out of the way. When they go to the Mental Hospital and Finkle's room there is absolutely nothing indicating any kind of gender confusion. The reason why Ray Finkle chooses Louis Einhorn is 2-fold and right there in the movie, he sees the news article explaining her disappearance and everyone knows what he looks like in Miami. Ace Ventura realizes the ruse when Ray Finkle's face gets obscured by hair making him look like Einhorn; indicating that the resemblance is still there. I can't believe I have to explain the plot of a not very clever slapstick comedy. Not to mention the writers wouldn't have anywhere near a modern understanding of being trans, this movie was written a couple of years outside of the decade that gave us "Aids is a disease from God to kill blacks and gays". Even if the writers came out and said Einhorn was meant to be trans, it would be a lie to self promote, like most BS is these days.

What makes the reference potentially an issue is the whole plot taken as a whole and put into context of current events. A mentally unstable, obsessed killer, who has and would kill more, decides to use the cover of being a female in order to gain access to a target to kidnap and torture them. If you can't see the clear parallel to states like NC and their bathroom laws then God help you. Not to mention that current psychiatry is potentially pushing back on gender dysmorphia being a mental illness and having a clearly completely mentally ill man pretending to be female, and then the "reaction" to them being outed is definitely insensitive in current climate. Along with the insinuation that Finkle took full advantage of being "female" to sexually harass/manipulate the entire police force, it definitely has the men can't be raped vibe.

There is a secondary issue to the removal though. It's where do we stop. What is to taboo and should be removed vs what do we not find offensive a leave in. I'm sure there are plenty of references to regular mentally ill fictional characters (probably non-fiction too) that are still included, is that not offensive to people struggling with depression, bipolarism, etc?

I am of the mindset that no one being safe is the only true non-bigotry. Because when you censor like Blizz is doing it just confirms their bias, whatever jokes slip in and whatever they determine is ok to remain, clearly show they are bias to the targeted audience.

[DarkAmbient]

It's almost like you didn't actually read what I said. I explained why it's transphobic. Read the whole comment instead of skimming.

I didn't skim it. You just made an illogical leap from 'male criminal using female disguise' to 'transphobia'. It's not transphobic to depict a male doing that. It actually happens in real life.

Also where the fuck are the mods, lol.

[TheRevenantHero]

Not really directly related to the discussion anymore, but that entire thing can't exist if trans people are upfront about it in the first place.

Wow. Way to defend those disgusting laws. "They lied to me so I should be allowed to murder them, your honor."

[justandulas]

imagine being so offended about a HARMLESS Ace Ventura joke that they remove it from the game.

Their devs are insanely out of touch with their players, reality, and far removed from common sense. I'm a liberal, but it's liberals like that that make the rest of us look like looney tunes to the masses.

I'm glad i'm unsubbed because clearly, blizzard has no concept of reality anymore, or even a fake reality within WoW. They are letting their most ardent crusaders run the company now, and it WILL hurt the product.

the next 2 quarterly reports are going to be shockingly abysmal, and it won't necessarily be about the sexual harrassment story anymore but their incompetent responses to it.

[taydan5780]

... will join the 41% where trash like you belongs...

Did...did you just tell this dude to go kill himself? Or are you so ignorant that you don't even know what the number you are referring to means? I rarely read these forums and even more rarely sign in. But I did it today just to report you. Get rekd, pos bigot...

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm going to blow minds here and actually explain why Finkle Einhorn is potentially offensive.

The character is not Trans, number one, that's out of the way. When they go to the Mental Hospital and Finkle's room there is absolutely nothing indicating any kind of gender confusion. The reason why Ray Finkle chooses Louis Einhorn is 2-fold and right there in the movie, he sees the news article explaining her disappearance and everyone knows what he looks like in Miami. Ace Ventura realizes the ruse when Ray Finkle's face gets obscured by hair making him look like Einhorn; indicating that the resemblance is still there. I can't believe I have to explain the plot of a not very clever slapstick comedy.

What makes the reference potentially an issue is the whole plot taken as a whole and put into context of current events. A mentally unstable, obsessed killer, who has and would kill more, decides to use the cover of being a female in order to gain access to a target to kidnap and torture them. If you can't see the clear parallel to states like NC and their bathroom laws then God help you. Not to mention that current psychiatry is potentially pushing back on gender dysmorphia being a mental illness and having a clearly completely mentally ill man pretending to be female, and then the "reaction" to them being outed is definitely insensitive in current climate. Along with the insinuation that Finkle took full advantage of being "female" to sexually harass/manipulate the entire police force, it definitely has the men can't be raped vibe.

There is a secondary issue to the removal though. It's where do we stop. What is to taboo and should be removed vs what do we not find offensive a leave in. I'm sure there are plenty of references to regular mentally ill fictional characters (probably non-fiction too) that are still included, is that not offensive to people struggling with depression, bipolarism, etc?

I am of the mindset that no one being safe is the only true non-bigotry. Because when you censor like Blizz is doing it just confirms their bias, whatever jokes slip in and whatever they determine is ok to remain, clearly show they are bias to the targeted audience.

You're trying to explain things to people in this thread that don't care and would rather keep being bigots. I've tried explaining the same points and just got called a "snowflake". It's literally pointless.

[Yarathir]

Wow. Way to defend those disgusting laws. "They lied to me so I should be allowed to murder them, your honor."

Nobody should be allowed to murder anyone except those that are a direct harm to them, but that's not exactly the crux of the argument here, is it?

You're implying that you either have to be okay with willful deceit and dismissal of people's sexualities or you have to be okay with murder.

[FelPlague]

Imagine being offended by REFERENCE to the COMEDY movie from 90's for TEENAGERS.
It really looks like they hired person to check every single name, item, achievement etc if any of these are possibly 'bad'... meanwhile bots still got clown fiesta ruining servers economies.
DesMephisto really impressed me by pumping many warriors records in leveling... but i will not follow him anymore.

so should we add black faced characters with bright red lips because its a reference to how loony toons used to do so back in the day?
References can be outdated, jokes can be outdated.

[justandulas]

Finkle in the movie did not identify as a woman. He took the identity of a dead and missing woman in order to evade police. That's why it's considered transphobic. It paints transpeople as only doing it for nefarious reasons and it helps fuel the whole "they're going to sexually assault people in bathrooms!" despite that never happening. It also helps fuel toxic trans panic defense laws.

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Ok let me rephrase. It's just like if a white guy is making really fucked up and racist comments about black men. It's called "punching down".

A joke is a joke, period. It doesn't have to reflect anything more than an INDIVIDUAL, and not an entire segment of people.

Secondly, anyone mocking ace ventura as transphobic honest to god needs a therapist and a year off the computer

[TheRevenantHero]

A joke is a joke, period. It doesn't have to reflect anything more than an INDIVIDUAL, and not an entire segment of people.

Secondly, anyone mocking ace ventura as transphobic honest to god needs a therapist and a year off the computer

So are you ok with white comedians making negative jokes about black people? Are you ok with straight comedians making negative jokes about gay people?

Because based on your comment, it makes me think that you're totally fine with bigotry.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Ok let me rephrase. It's just like if a white guy is making really fucked up and racist comments about black men. It's called "punching down".

That's what we call a double standard. A white guy making racist comments about a black guy is no better or worse than a black guy making racist comments about a white guy. How "advantaged" vs. "oppressed" you may or may not be is irrelevant as to whether your individual action is good or bad.

Intentionally treating different groups of people differently because one is advantaged and one is disadvantaged is not going to fix the division. Treating people equally will.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

So are you ok with white comedians making negative jokes about black people? Are you ok with straight comedians making negative jokes about gay people?

Because based on your comment, it makes me think that you're totally fine with bigotry.

If it's a joke all in good fun - it's fine. If it's mean-spirited mockery / hatred (actual bigotry) than it's not okay. The same standard applies if the roles are reversed, you know - because people should be treated equally.