Space Travel & Exploration

[PACOX]

It still feels weird. I always felt space exploration is the apotheosis of science and as such, pretty much the antithesis of religion. (I was pretty enraged by Contact.)

How do you deal with people who will inevitably use contact as a way to affirm or deny theism (not any particular religion but 'god' in general)? Especially coming from the scientific community where any claim must be testable. Even an 'idk' would need to be followed with why you can't know.

How do you curve cult like behavior when we've seen people kill themselves over passing comets believing there were aliens of divine origin behind it? NASA would need to learn how to address philosophical questions even if the answer is 'that's not or department'.

Hell many (probably not a majority) scientists self-reported as being on some sort of spectrum between agnostic and theist. They would surely be interesting in exploring how contact may or may not reconcile the gap between the realm of science and their spirituality.

Theism is not scientific because it is not testable. Doesn't mean theism is true or false. Contact with alien intelligence could possibly change that.

[Easo]

In some other news aside from the telescope - China complained about Starlink supposedly making their space station change it's course twice this year. This was immediately followed by the Chinese bot/couch patriot army decrying SpaceX, Musk and everything else.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59806499
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59824404

[PACOX]

In some other news aside from the telescope - China complained about Starlink supposedly making their space station change it's course twice this year. This was immediately followed by the Chinese bot/couch patriot army decrying SpaceX, Musk and everything else.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59806499
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59824404

Starlink is a problem and many are definitely hypocritical about it. The main placing satellite constellations into orbit similar to Starlink is largely unregulated but impacts everyone. Starlink isn't the only project like it, just the most successful/further along.

Starlink has become an issue with astronomers at the very least. There's discussion about what happens when other projects catch up and other ventures start launching their own small sat LEO constellations. There's going to have to be an international discussion about the emerging issue of a much more crowded LEO.

[cubby]

It still feels weird. I always felt space exploration is the apotheosis of science and as such, pretty much the antithesis of religion. (I was pretty enraged by Contact.)

And I agree with you completely. The very notion of consulting with religion for things of a scientific nature makes my skin crawl. But here we are. Ignorance never seems to stop shining.

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You pretty much said why I think it doesn't make sense. "Some kind of god/deity/whatever". How can you possibly tailor a message around even half of all that, when the message is "aliens are real, here's what we know"? People are going to react how they are going to react.

Besides, whatever awesome message they are going to make, it's going to get twisted regardless, from whatever news (or "news") outlet they prefer watching. And the religious leaders are going to either call it fake news, or just accept it with a spoonful of "God moves in mysterious ways".

It's pointless.

Exactly. That's why they are consulting with them to figure it out. To me it's ridiculous to even care why a religion group would need to be hand held back into reality. The two things are mutually exclusive in my mind.

[Dezerte]

Eh, I just see it as them hiring a science communicator. God knows we need more of them

But yeah, it seemed weird at first to me as well.

[Easo]

Starlink is a problem and many are definitely hypocritical about it. The main placing satellite constellations into orbit similar to Starlink is largely unregulated but impacts everyone. Starlink isn't the only project like it, just the most successful/further along.

Starlink has become an issue with astronomers at the very least. There's discussion about what happens when other projects catch up and other ventures start launching their own small sat LEO constellations. There's going to have to be an international discussion about the emerging issue of a much more crowded LEO.

Musk's words about space being fuckhueg are still true. With better tracking/reporting/cooperating systems it really should not matter if we put more sattelites up there. I will agree that we need those things asap, though.
And sorry if I take anything from China with a grain of salt.

[Nerraw]

Port-side sunshield boom has been extended. Starboard boom extension expected in the next few hours as well.

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Opposite boom has been extended, sunshield is now in its diamond shape! Next up is tensioning the layers.

[tikcol]

It still feels weird. I always felt space exploration is the apotheosis of science and as such, pretty much the antithesis of religion. (I was pretty enraged by Contact.)

It might be uncommon but I'm sure there are religious people working there. Besides, it's like a bridge between the potential scientific discovery and the billions of religious people outside of nasa. I don't think it's a bad idea

[Julian Rayne]

I wonder if there's some site ticking off all the single points of failure that have been safely passed.

[Nerraw]

I wonder if there's some site ticking off all the single points of failure that have been safely passed.

Well, 107 of them were the pins that secured the sunshield for flight. Those were safely undone in the past couple of days.

[Easo]

If Webb finds the markers of life on an exoplanet it will possibly be the most impactful event in the history of Theology (not to mention in the history of humanity, really), so figuring out what to do and how to broach it with the public in that potential eventuality seems like a good idea. It's worth figuring out now how to present it to prevent any kind of freak-out or mass-nihilism or whatever, hell, they may conclude it'll just be taken in stride as part of the "moves in mysterious ways" cop-out. But it's never bad to have a plan for all the possibilities and have your presentation ideas figured out in advance.

I don't recall Webb having the capabilities to get that much info out of what it will take images of. Can you explain a bit more what you mean by markers of life in this case, cause it seems a bit too far fetched for me.

[Forogil]

I don't recall Webb having the capabilities to get that much info out of what it will take images of. Can you explain a bit more what you mean by markers of life in this case, cause it seems a bit too far fetched for me.

There are claims that it can check atmospheres of some exo-planets and possibly find that https://earthsky.org/space/james-web...-1-exoplanets/ https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45400144

However, those are not the most likely candidates for life and they are quite close, so the likely answer is that there isn't life there - but possibly somewhere else that JWST cannot find.

[Julian Rayne]

I don't recall Webb having the capabilities to get that much info out of what it will take images of. Can you explain a bit more what you mean by markers of life in this case, cause it seems a bit too far fetched for me.

There are some thermodynamically unstable chemicals that would be a very strong indication of life. For example free oxygen used to be considered a marker for photosynthesis. I think that's what they mean. James Webb would be capable of analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets through spectroscopy. So if it found some of those chemicals it would strongly increase the probability of life.

I still thing theology has no place in science. They might as well hire psychics, anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, astrologers and homeopaths while they're at it.

[PC2]

I still thing theology has no place in science. They might as well hire psychics, anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, astrologers and homeopaths while they're at it.

That's simply correct. Any discipline can be scientific as long as they constrain their explanations to those that are physically testable. Theologists can't make their most important explanations testable though because then they'd be proven wrong shortly afterwards...

[Twdft]

That's... strange.

What could theologians possibly tell, that random people from the street, can't? And what does one even do with such information? Alien life exists, but not tell anyone, because people might freak out? Alien life exists, but tell it in some religious way? Or is this just some odd way or trying to secure more funds in the future?

I just don't understand...

A lot of good behaviour by religious people is due to fear/love of their god. Now imagine the believe of billions of people is shook in its foundations. How many will go nutjob and start shall we say bad behaviour because why the fuck not when there is no god anymore punishing you and the hell you wanted to avoid all your life is a lie too.

So finding a strategy how to break the news to religious people seems needed.

Btw, I think religions will just adapt with some kind of "yeah well God is such a great guy, he made them aliens too".

[PC2]

A lot of good behaviour by religious people is due to fear/love of their god. Now imagine the believe of billions of people is shook in its foundations. How many will go nutjob and start shall we say bad behaviour because why the fuck not when there is no god anymore punishing you and the hell you wanted to avoid all your life is a lie too.

So finding a strategy how to break the news to religious people seems needed.

Btw, I think religions will just adapt with some kind of "yeah well God is such a great guy, he made them aliens too".

I don't think your argument is a big concern though because even in a secular society it's not in an individual's best long term interest to be immoral. A moral society will improve over the long run, an immoral one won't. No amount of religion or a lack of belief in religion can change that.

[Easo]

There are claims that it can check atmospheres of some exo-planets and possibly find that https://earthsky.org/space/james-web...-1-exoplanets/ https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45400144

However, those are not the most likely candidates for life and they are quite close, so the likely answer is that there isn't life there - but possibly somewhere else that JWST cannot find.

There are some thermodynamically unstable chemicals that would be a very strong indication of life. For example free oxygen used to be considered a marker for photosynthesis. I think that's what they mean. James Webb would be capable of analyzing the atmospheres of exoplanets through spectroscopy. So if it found some of those chemicals it would strongly increase the probability of life.

I still thing theology has no place in science. They might as well hire psychics, anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, astrologers and homeopaths while they're at it.

Thanks, that makes it clearer. This clearly does not need theologians though, for two reasons - first, we won't know if there actually is life on planet X (read, aliens), only that planet X might actually support life and second - that theologions have no place in science, as already said. But that is such a can of shit it better should be left unoppened.
For humorous example - an event from Latvia this year comes to mind when the official public debate about euthanasia had only 2 doctors but 4 priests. Make of it what you will.

[Tsarez]

I swear guys if you bring problems to this thread with your religious talk... just don't address that topic at all. NASA is trying to cover as many aspects as possible for the miniscule off chance that they might discover something out there. Let's leave it at that.

[PC2]

I swear guys if you bring problems to this thread with your religious talk... just don't address that topic at all. NASA is trying to cover as many aspects as possible for the miniscule off chance that they might discover something out there. Let's leave it at that.

Yeah true, in my experience it's always best to frame that topic in terms of the 'supernatural' instead of religion. That's one way to talk about the same topic without it being against the rules and without being offensive.

Also as far as aliens go one reason why aliens cannot be inherently incomprehensible to human beings is because their bodies and minds must operate based on the exact same laws of physics that control homo-sapiens. Thinking that advanced aliens can't be understood by humans and vice versa must be wrong because it implies there is something supernatural about them that can't be explained.

Oh and does anyone know how many species of life on Earth can survive in a (near) zero gravity environment like outer space without it interrupting their biological processes? I wonder if it's like 99% or 60%, or if it were a minority of species that can survive in space then homo-sapiens got slightly lucky with our biology.

[Tsarez]

Yeah true, in my experience it's always best to frame that topic in terms of the 'supernatural' instead of religion. That's one way to talk about the same topic without it being against the rules and without being offensive.

Also as far as aliens go one reason why aliens cannot be inherently incomprehensible to human beings is because their bodies and minds must operate based on the exact same law of physics that control homo-sapiens. Thinking that aliens can't be understood by humans and vice versa must be wrong because it implies there is something supernatural about them that can't be explained.

Oh and does anyone know how many species of life on Earth can survive in a (near) zero gravity environment like outer space without it interrupting their biological processes? I wonder if it's like 99% or 60%, or if it were a minority of species that can survive in space then homo-sapiens got slightly lucky with our biology.

We cannot really survive in space though. Reproduction in space is most likely not possible, or at least severely impacted, and we have to wear suits so that we don't boil and freeze at the same time when exposed to outer space directly.

But you're right when you say that the same laws of physics apply to us and them.

However, think of it as you trying to commnunicate with a shark. You know the shark can feel blood from miles away. A shark would still be forever unable to explain to you how he does it.

Maybe if the alien race was advanced enough to establish a common communication with us and we're not talking about only an animal-type alien, then we could better understand each other. The problem is still the old saying, that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Though my hopes are slim anyway. Whatever Webb finds, it will be millions opon millions of years old. If there WAS some signature of life out there, there is no way to bring forth definitive proof that there is still something out there.