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  1. #1
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Space Travel & Exploration

    Please post constructively and politely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    No idea what they are doing. ISS is old and expensive, then there are the politics, vague plans of their own space station like in the good old times and all of these goes together with lack of cash, no matter what propaganda says.
    It's nuts - three separate events, all from the Russians, threatening the ISS. I know the ISS is slated to retire in this decade (IIRC, it was 2024, but was "extended" to 2030).

    There is no way Russia can afford their own space station. Not funding the whole thing. It's possible they are sabotaging the ISS so perhaps we'll abandon it - and they can have the dregs to rebuild? That doesn't really make any sense though - we'd know what they were up to and more than likely cut them off, so to speak. Plus, we're probably looking to salvage some modules from the ISS to add to our new Space Station.

    Thank goodness we have independent human launch capability.

    Plans for Gateway are underway and expected to launch the first two modules in 2024, however that is NOT the replacement for the ISS, despite what some articles are saying.

    Gateway is the Lunar orbiting module, the "base" for the Moon landings.

    NASA was interested in commercial proposals for Space Stations orbiting Earth. We'll see how that goes.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-10-19 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Russia absolutely cannot afford their own space station right now and if they could - it would take years and years to get it online, there is nothing built at all as of now. And whatever they could make, or anyone else, would pale in comparision to ISS, no one separately can afford such project.
    Sabotaging is pretty much a conspiracy theory, no one is that dumb to attempt something like that. It is much more likely that the old shit is failing (as already noted ISS was supposed to be much shorter term project), and the new module simply is "buggy".
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  3. #3
    The Lightbringer bladeXcrasher's Avatar
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    Russia is pissed that a Soyuz seat is almost twice as much as a Crew Dragon seat so there is literally no reason NASA, ESA, JAXA, or CSA would pay to send up crew on Soyuz anymore outside of the safety assurance the vehicle has developed over it's lifetime.

    The new module was destined to fail, it was delayed 14 years.

  4. #4
    Reminds me, need more space for my PS5... need to use that expansion slot.

  5. #5
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Russia absolutely cannot afford their own space station right now and if they could - it would take years and years to get it online, there is nothing built at all as of now. And whatever they could make, or anyone else, would pale in comparision to ISS, no one separately can afford such project.
    Sabotaging is pretty much a conspiracy theory, no one is that dumb to attempt something like that. It is much more likely that the old shit is failing (as already noted ISS was supposed to be much shorter term project), and the new module simply is "buggy".
    Yeah, I really do think this is a case of "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence".

    As much as a marvel as the ISS is, it really is just a matter of it nearing the end of its usable life - there's not really that much in terms of new research it offers that can't be accomplished using telemetry operated orbital systems, and it's badly positioned to serve any practical function as a waystation for exploration deeper into space. Winding down operations and shifting the funding to newer projects is probably the best option.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
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  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    In regards to the ISS @Easo is correct. Even if the Russians wanted to abandon the ISS, they would try to sell abd/or decouple their part to recoup some of the cost. Sabotaging it would be insane. The othet agencies would also decouple if they actually thought Russia was being reckless and the recent problems aren't just bugs.

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    For all discussions related to space.

    Please post constructively and politely.

    .

    I love my space.

    But i really hate it when people get really close to you behind in line. Are they so afraid someone will jump in front of them if they give me some room?? This really hasn't changed much during COVID.

    6 foot rule should be applied since the start of time regarding my personal space.





    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Reminds me, need more space for my PS5... need to use that expansion slot.
    damn you for beating me to the joke....."being a wise ass"
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  8. #8
    Just to make sure that horse never gets back up


  9. #9
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    In general, please ask a moderator or admin for mega-thread creation. Creating one on your own can cause confusion to users and disrupts the flow of similar topics. It usually requires all similar threads to be closed and discussion to continue in one place (enforced by moderator action). At the moment, there isn't a need for this to be done and if there was, it'd be in one of the existing threads (usually the first or most active).

    Edit:
    After discussion, it was still deemed unnecessary to make this a mega-thread.
    1) Mega-threads aren't just big topic-specific threads, they have a unique functionality on our end which isn't needed here.
    2) A Space Mega-Thread is too broad a topic to close off all future topics just for mentioning space in any capacity.
    3) While some users chose to self-contain in the SpaceX thread, that doesn't mean others will want to do the same for their more niche interests.

    However, that doesn't mean this can't be a regular thread. The main issue presented was that posters were replying in a thread that was too specific instead of making their own. Ideally, this sentiment (along with the OP's approval) would've been enough to alter that thread to make it more accomodating but the matter's been pushed to this alternative. This thread has been re-opened and the title changed to be more inclusive to the type of topics people wanted to discuss. It should meet what was wanted, without being too stringent.

    All that said, continue as you wish. Any further questions need to go to PMs or the Contact Us tool.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2021-10-19 at 03:43 PM.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post

    Edit:
    After discussion, it was still deemed unnecessary to make this a mega-thread.
    1) Mega-threads aren't just big topic-specific threads, they have a unique functionality on our end which isn't needed here.
    2) A Space Mega-Thread is too broad a topic to close off all future topics just for mentioning space in any capacity.
    3) While some users chose to self-contain in the SpaceX thread, that doesn't mean others will want to do the same for their more niche interests.

    However, that doesn't mean this can't be a regular thread. The main issue presented was that posters were replying in a thread that was too specific instead of making their own. Ideally, this sentiment (along with the OP's approval) would've been enough to alter that thread to make it more accomodating but the matter's been pushed to this alternative. This thread has been re-opened and the title changed to be more inclusive to the type of topics people wanted to discuss. It should meet what was wanted, without being too stringent.

    All that said, continue as you wish. Any further questions need to go to PMs or the Contact Us tool.
    Thanks Rozz!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    In general, please ask a moderator or admin for mega-thread creation. Creating one on your own can cause confusion to users and disrupts the flow of similar topics. It usually requires all similar threads to be closed and discussion to continue in one place (enforced by moderator action). At the moment, there isn't a need for this to be done and if there was, it'd be in one of the existing threads (usually the first or most active).

    Edit:
    After discussion, it was still deemed unnecessary to make this a mega-thread.
    1) Mega-threads aren't just big topic-specific threads, they have a unique functionality on our end which isn't needed here.
    2) A Space Mega-Thread is too broad a topic to close off all future topics just for mentioning space in any capacity.
    3) While some users chose to self-contain in the SpaceX thread, that doesn't mean others will want to do the same for their more niche interests.

    However, that doesn't mean this can't be a regular thread. The main issue presented was that posters were replying in a thread that was too specific instead of making their own. Ideally, this sentiment (along with the OP's approval) would've been enough to alter that thread to make it more accomodating but the matter's been pushed to this alternative. This thread has been re-opened and the title changed to be more inclusive to the type of topics people wanted to discuss. It should meet what was wanted, without being too stringent.

    All that said, continue as you wish. Any further questions need to go to PMs or the Contact Us tool.

    Man look at all that wasted space....




    ok I'll stop now. :P
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  12. #12
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    https://spaceflightnow.com/2021/10/1...-rolls-to-vab/

    SLS is done. Orion (the capsule that sits on top of Orion) is about to be stacked. Artemis 1 may actually fly within 3 months.

    The project might have been a shit show everyone involved but all the engineers and assemblers deserve praise for what was handed to them.

    Orion is so old I forgot its actually built from refurbished shuttle parts like SLS. ULA is pretty humble. Musk has people thinking no one has ever reused or refurbished parts until he came up with the idea. This would be the 2nd stack ULA has made from old parts if you exclude the shuttles themselves.

    Damn the long as time it took but impressive nonetheless.

    Next is mating Orion to the rest of the rocket. That takes a couple of days but they are giving themselves until the beginning of November.

    Then two fueling cycles. One is a test, the second would be for the actual flight. Whether permitting, should be the end of December or January.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ite/ar-AAPtLBU

    The James Webb telescope (kind of replacement for Hubble and another NASA project that's been in development hell for a long time) has arrived at its launch site an expected to be launched in December. NASA will be using the European Ariane 5 to send the satellite up.
    Last edited by PACOX; 2021-10-19 at 10:29 PM.

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  13. #13
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yeah, I really do think this is a case of "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence".

    As much as a marvel as the ISS is, it really is just a matter of it nearing the end of its usable life - there's not really that much in terms of new research it offers that can't be accomplished using telemetry operated orbital systems, and it's badly positioned to serve any practical function as a waystation for exploration deeper into space. Winding down operations and shifting the funding to newer projects is probably the best option.
    Thinking on it for even a few moments, I would have to agree with you and @Easo - it would make zero sense for the Russians to sabotage the ISS.

  14. #14
    So what were the reasons given behind the holes found?
    They had drill marks from the inside.
    Did we ever find out?
    If not intentionally malicious, is space cabin fever a thing lol
    Also Easo, not quite true, Tianhe launched in April so there's that one too.
    Not complete yet obviously but China can and is.

  15. #15
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Thinking on it for even a few moments, I would have to agree with you and @Easo - it would make zero sense for the Russians to sabotage the ISS.
    In your defense, it's not an unreasonable assumption given their prior history. There are just far more likely explanations before intentional sabotage.

    And again, it's largely immaterial - even if they were actively trying to sabotage it, the fact remains the ISS program has reached the limit of its contributions. All that would result is a largely obsolete space station being destroyed and the Russians being locked out of any further international projects.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  16. #16
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    So what were the reasons given behind the holes found?
    They had drill marks from the inside.
    Did we ever find out?
    If not intentionally malicious, is space cabin fever a thing lol
    Also Easo, not quite true, Tianhe launched in April so there's that one too.
    Not complete yet obviously but China can and is.
    IIRC, the holes that happened awhile ago, the Russian "investigation" ended up blaming them on the "hysteria" of a female U.S. astronaut. I think that response from the Russians is where my thought process creeped along to nefarious deeds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    https://spaceflightnow.com/2021/10/1...-rolls-to-vab/

    SLS is done. Orion (the capsule that sits on top of Orion) is about to be stacked. Artemis 1 may actually fly within 3 months.

    The project might have been a shit show everyone involved but all the engineers and assemblers deserve praise for what was handed to them.

    Orion is so old I forgot its actually built from refurbished shuttle parts like SLS. ULA is pretty humble. Musk has people thinking no one has ever reused or refurbished parts until he came up with the idea. This would be the 2nd stack ULA has made from old parts if you exclude the shuttles themselves.

    Damn the long as time it took but impressive nonetheless.

    Next is mating Orion to the rest of the rocket. That takes a couple of days but they are giving themselves until the beginning of November.

    Then two fueling cycles. One is a test, the second would be for the actual flight. Whether permitting, should be the end of December or January.

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...ite/ar-AAPtLBU

    The James Webb telescope (kind of replacement for Hubble and another NASA project that's been in development hell for a long time) has arrived at its launch site an expected to be launched in December. NASA will be using the European Ariane 5 to send the satellite up.
    That's very exciting news - and solidly impressive work from the engineers on that task. January launch would be awesome - the U.S. needs, imo, 3 separate agencies/companies (I'm struggling for the right combo there) to launching major rockets into space. The Chinese are moving quickly to get their own space station up and running, with a 6 month crew already slated to arrive soon. While still behind the U.S. and Russia, they are rapidly catching up, and have even passed us in one milestone - the lander on the far side of the moon.

    Musk would love for people to think he's the first guy to think up reuseable rockets, but NASA literally invented his designs initially, with SpaceX cribbing from past designs and their engineers standing on the shoulders of giants. And the Space Shuttle program was a great example of using some pieces over and over again. NASA's designs on gradieur were always hampered by funding and political bullshit. I think it's the sine que non of any ground breaking space agency and also it's worst enemy.

    Can't wait to see SLS go up. Gateway by 2024!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    In your defense, it's not an unreasonable assumption given their prior history. There are just far more likely explanations before intentional sabotage.

    And again, it's largely immaterial - even if they were actively trying to sabotage it, the fact remains the ISS program has reached the limit of its contributions. All that would result is a largely obsolete space station being destroyed and the Russians being locked out of any further international projects.
    And it's easy to go "unreasonable" with the Russians. Thank you for that. And I totally agree there are far more likely explanations for what happened - I mean, how old is the ISS? 20 years from it's first major component? We don't keep most cars that long.

    I understand NASA is full steam ahead for the Gateway moon transit station, and is leaving the ISS replacement up to private endeavors.

  17. #17
    6 month crew already launched.

    https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sc...on-2021-10-15/

    Edit from article:

    China on Saturday launched a rocket carrying three astronauts - two men and one woman - to the core module of a future space station where they will live and work for six months, the longest orbit for Chinese astronauts.

    A Long March-2F rocket carrying the Shenzhou-13 spacecraft, which means "Divine Vessel", blasted off from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the northwestern province of Gansu at 12:23 a.m. (1623 GMT on Friday).
    Last edited by Hollycakes; 2021-10-20 at 01:54 AM.

  18. #18
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    And it's easy to go "unreasonable" with the Russians. Thank you for that. And I totally agree there are far more likely explanations for what happened - I mean, how old is the ISS? 20 years from it's first major component? We don't keep most cars that long.
    To be fair, the ISS wasn't designed with planned obsolescence in mind like most consumer car. True, the technology might be ancient by modern standards, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of it; there's a reason why analog controls are still preferred in a lot of areas over touchscreens, to cite one example..

    I understand NASA is full steam ahead for the Gateway moon transit station, and is leaving the ISS replacement up to private endeavors.
    Therein is the thing; there's not really a reason to replace the ISS as is. It was always a compromise between the American and Russian space programs.

    Truth be told, there's not really a reason for private enterprises to even have a space station because space tourism simply isn't profitable. It's a vanity project for the mega rich, nothing more.
    The Were/Was Army: "Nooo you can't just vaporize my entire armored division, we had such a manly recruitment ad!"
    The They/Them Army: "Omg integrated fire support?? Go off queen sksksks, JDAMs are such a gemini thing."

  19. #19
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    6 month crew already launched.

    https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sc...on-2021-10-15/

    Edit from article:

    China on Saturday launched a rocket carrying three astronauts - two men and one woman - to the core module of a future space station where they will live and work for six months, the longest orbit for Chinese astronauts.

    A Long March-2F rocket carrying the Shenzhou-13 spacecraft, which means "Divine Vessel", blasted off from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in the northwestern province of Gansu at 12:23 a.m. (1623 GMT on Friday).
    Pretty sweet.

    I was doing some back-of-the-envelope math. If the U.S.'s new rocket force - SLS, SpaceX, Virgin (IIRC, Bezos is getting people to space, but has yet to achieve LEO - should if I'm off on that assessment) - can each launch significant weight, the U.S. might be able to get a pretty good weight portion of the ISS into space. In other words, replacing the old ISS, on a commercial basis, might not be that relatively difficult. Obviously, it would need to be designed and built, but none of the private agencies have been bothered in the past with cribbing NASA plans.

    Unity was the habitable portion of the ISS and it weighed 11,600kg. That's nothing in the realm of the lift capacity we have today. Size would be another issue, of course, but still, it's feasible. Just a thought.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    To be fair, the ISS wasn't designed with planned obsolescence in mind like most consumer car. True, the technology might be ancient by modern standards, but there's something to be said for the simplicity of it; there's a reason why analog controls are still preferred in a lot of areas over touchscreens, to cite one example..
    Agreed. The automobile is a terrible example, of course, for the very reason you mentioned. I'm NASA knew it was going to run it's course, but it wasn't planned obsolescence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Therein is the thing; there's not really a reason to replace the ISS as is. It was always a compromise between the American and Russian space programs.

    Truth be told, there's not really a reason for private enterprises to even have a space station because space tourism simply isn't profitable. It's a vanity project for the mega rich, nothing more.
    I'm not following how Gateway will be the replacement to ISS. It's my understanding that Gateway will be an outpost orbiting the Moon that provides vital support for a long-term human return to the lunar surface. If it's orbiting the moon, it's going to be too far away for any LEO missions.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    So what were the reasons given behind the holes found?
    They had drill marks from the inside.
    Did we ever find out?
    If not intentionally malicious, is space cabin fever a thing lol
    Also Easo, not quite true, Tianhe launched in April so there's that one too.
    Not complete yet obviously but China can and is.
    Not comparable, the finished size will be 1/5th of what ISS is. That was my point, individually not even States will spend that much cash to build it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

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