Poll: Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, if writers could whistle a tune and tie their shoelaces at the same time, the war of thorns could have never happened. Still, one BS episode doesn't excuse another, does it?
    At this point i may even settle for equally bad writing for both, with a clause that Horde dosent get those genocidal fiestas they seem to receive like some twisted holiday every year.

  2. #202
    Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.

  3. #203
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.
    Tbh even Thrall was a quite crappy warchief. He may not have been a genocidal maniac, but he doomed his people to hunger and poverty when he decided to settle in such an unhospitable place as Durotar because of green guilt. He didn't bother to expand the Horde, thus indirectly weakening it - as a matter of fact, it was the Tauren who poked Thrall to induct the Forsaken into the Horde, ditto for Sylvanas and belfs. Aside from Theramore, he systematically tried to appease the Alliance and ultimately failed, when Varian declared war during the coup d'état at the Undercity. After such an unblemished service record, he threw the hot potato to someone who by self admission was unfit to lead, and went to Sue his merry way all around Azeroth.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.
    Thrall was a shitty leader that is only remembered as "good" because that was his intended moral alignment...

    He was a terrible leader that abandoned his post during a time of war so he could go bang his wife and have a kid that the lore deliberately forgot. He did some good things in founding the horde but due to having to be the 'good' leader that plays nice with everyone he wound up being a rather piss poor warchief trying to play at being Moses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, if writers could whistle a tune and tie their shoelaces at the same time, the war of thorns could have never happened. Still, one BS episode doesn't excuse another, does it?
    I mean.. to be fair. that story arc didn't start out so bad... but yeah the execution was atrocious.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Utigarde View Post
    Purely by her actions? I would lean towards yes. Aside from Thrall, she diversified the Horde more than any other leader, and built them up to be strong enough to apparently take on both the entire Alliance and parts of the Horde had the second Siege not been stopped. If they'd stuck with her motives in A Good War, she'd have been a genuinely interesting leader in regards to questioning the morality of your actions on your enemies when it comes at the benefit of your own people.

    Her motives, however, are obviously what corrupt this (inconsistent as they are), and going by her most recent ones, her reasons for building up the Horde so much wouldn't really have it last long.
    The first reply is the best reply, /thread

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefall View Post
    The first reply is the best reply, /thread
    its mostly wrong as she barely did what he say and mostly seized what was already there to use.

    who build the horde to be strong was Garrosh back in cata, the pillars and core things he done is what made the horde that it is now.

    and rly "diversifying" the horde is a controversial point if tis good or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post

    I mean.. to be fair. that story arc didn't start out so bad... but yeah the execution was atrocious.
    the premise of BfA was awful, making horde the villains again, it already start bad, it would be wishful thinking believe it would end any different than awful

    aalmost 90% of the problems with Bfa could be solved if the alliance attacked undercity first, and in retaliation horde attacked teldrassil, but something went wrong and the tree was set ablaze

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the premise of BfA was awful, making horde the villains again, it already start bad, it would be wishful thinking believe it would end any different than awful

    aalmost 90% of the problems with Bfa could be solved if the alliance attacked undercity first, and in retaliation horde attacked teldrassil, but something went wrong and the tree was set ablaze

    really the way they handled teldrassil was atrocious.

    Demolishers out of nowhere after hyping Azerite weaponry, a deadly ritual envoking a goddess that... really didn't do much of anything.... Malfurion surviving to not do anything outside of a single cutscene.

    Really if they had just not made the burning so blatant and not done in a relatively controlled manner....ugh...

    Like a near miss on an Azerite Bomb done at the same time as say, Tyrande invoking Elune's Wrath to bring vengeance on the world and some vague uncertainty about which was it that did more dmg and maybe the story could have worked out better.

    edit:
    What really irks me more about BFA isn't that they wrote the horde as unqestionably the villains out the gate.. it's that they wrote all parties as blithering idiots. Like Alliance forces giving chase in hot pursuit..... STRAIGHT into a port acting surprised when a navy did them dirty for entering another nations waters... Horde all just going along moping that Sylvanas was doing things... A whole ass cutscene with Baine and Saurfang acting like a couple highschoolers at the lunch table talking about Sylvanas and Galywix...
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-10-22 at 10:10 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Theramore has been involved in fighting the Horde for the entirety of Cataclysm, to the point of running out of troops and Theramore forces preceded both Garrosh being Warchief and the Shattering by taking Honor's Stand. It's about as neutral as Orgrimmar itself. The rest of the argument I don't follow - if the Horde could seize the weapon by force and deploy it what else is really needed? The mana bomb is a blood elven weapon, the only thing different about is the power source and given what we've seen of the mana bomb in Outland the only real difference is in the relative yield, with Kirin Var likely being comparable to Theramore.

    Jaina did ultimately change her mind, but only after she'd already tried twice. If I shoot someone with a gun, but he's wearing a vest and I then give up on it, I still went through with attempted murder, outside factors just happened to stop me. In any case what I'm getting at is that both the Focusing Iris and the krakens were things that the Horde had to seize before hand in order to deploy.

    The Horde doesn't need to be equal to the Legion in terms of firepower, the Legion has endless amounts of spaceships and if the demon down there hadn't taken down the Xenedar any number of other elements would have. The case is more that if a Legion demon of no particular consequence was able to take the Xenedar down with one shot, there's no reason the Horde shouldn't be able to take down a comparable ship, especially if it's the BFA-era Horde where both factions have access to Warcraft plutonium in azerite. The Horde doesn't need to have the Legion's strength to take it down, only equal to or more strength than a demon so irrelevant it receives no commentary before or after its singular scene.




    Guilty as charged, I'd have enjoyed BFA exponentially more if I had the chance to actually be involved in all the bullshit the narrative spent all of my time whinging about anyway rather than killing my own faction in defense of the enemy while the NPCs hog all the fun. The main thing is that what the Alliance player sees of the Horde in BFA has jack to do with what the Horde player does. In the Alliance content you fight gleeful tards involved in the faction war enthusiastically and kill them, then have your guys tell you how fighting is wrong because the narrative is written by people who's conception of morality is out of whack in the way only western urban writers can be. In the Horde content in BFA you spend 90% of your time losing to the Alliance and the rest of the time killing your own dudes while they tell you about how they wish they were born blue, also for the same reason.

    This has little stake in the actual content of the game either as initially envisioned or initially presented. The fact that Theramore and the like can even be debated whereas any talk of BFA comes with an asterisk of having to avoid all the contrivances is what stands out. As regards Jaina, the reasons you point out is why her BFA storyline remains the most overrated element of that expansion. It's entirely a Doylist construction existing because the writers want world peace. Her character, and indeed any character could not have organically reached the conclusions she did.
    Hmm, yes, you're right, Theramore was part of the Alliance. But i still think it's still much more neutral than the regular Alliance and Horde soldiers and Jaina was constantly trying to bring peace between the Alliance and the Horde. I'm also not sure if what you used in the example was a direct order from Jaina. Many people in Theramore wanted a war with the Horde as seen in The Cycle of Haatred and Jaina was totally against it. Once again, mana bombs are okay, there are no blue dragons to use such a powerful weapon. As we have noticed, only the Horde does this kind of thing.

    But this is not the same. You didn't shoot someone, you wanted to shoot and you were prevented.

    By this logic, wouldn't the Alliance in Bfa also be able to strengthen the Vindicaar even more?
    Last edited by darkoms; 2021-10-24 at 03:01 AM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I think it's still much more neutral than the regular Alliance and Horde soldiers and Jaina was constantly trying to bring peace between the Alliance and the Horde. Once again, mana bombs are okay, there are no blue dragons to use such a powerful weapon. As we have noticed, only the Horde does this kind of thing.

    But this is not the same. You didn't shoot someone, you wanted to shoot and you were prevented.

    By this logic, wouldn't the Alliance in Bfa also be able to strengthen the Vindicaar even more?
    The main use of Vindicaar is quick troop transport through the beacons, which they did utilise to some extent. And if it really became an insurmountable problem it'S not like the Blelves haven't taken much much bigger spacecraft of similar craft, in the past. Or use any number of other methods to assault it, while it gets in position to do it's laser.

    Well shooting someone, in bodyarmor still constitutes as shooting someone... The matter of giving up after the first 2 rounds proved ineffective doesn't change that lol.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    thats the thing m8, Varian came with the power of an wild god, that means he was completely rested and powered up by goldrin against a garrosh who was fighting all day, much fair amright?

    Varian coming out of nowhere and the worgens to help was an deus ex machina moment.


    and this is factually wrong, you pretend like alliance don't use "artifacts" and other powers as well, mind you, the alliance only win something when the horde fight itself.

    pot meet kettle


    deus ex machina to win


    the horde was winning before she did the deal with "evil force"

    do you realize Sylvanas goal never was to win? if her goal was that she would win for sure, she would win right in the war of thorns


    how? did you actually read the quests of anything?

    Malfurion had an axe with his spine, her and saurfang fuck up the thing and let him live

    the goal was to capture teldrasil/darnasus and make the alliance bleed figthing in two fronts while controlling an powerful position, taking their resources and hostages,.




    Show me that the spaceship destroyed a city then we can talk about

    - the whole firepower of the spaceship showed in legion was to open a tiny hole in antorus, and thats it.
    - it can't attack from space hoping it will land, as it showed it had to enter in the planet to damage antorus

    you are claiming "im making up fantasies" while doing your own.



    Goblin technology works perfectly when it mean to explode and destroy, rest assure that if alliance ever want to bring the war into nuclear level they respont no time.
    Garrosh didn't even fight personally, and what does that have to do with it? Varian and Garrosh had a duel and Varian won with the blessing of the wild god, yes. But the Alliance army had already won and without their dupe. Um, and the magnataurs that came out of nowhere weren't that moment? I mean, the worgen were literally staying with the Night Elves at the time, they weren't that far to come to their rescue, you know.


    When was the last time the Alliance attacked blue dragons for super artifacts? Lol where did you get this. Nathanos literally says in 8.1 that there are a couple of weeks left before the victory of the Alliance, and that was before the uprising of Bane or Saurfang. On the contrary, the Horde didn't lose just because Sylvanas made a deal with Azshara. I don't remember the Alliance ever making a deal with someone like Archimonde to destroy the Horde troops.


    Oh, nice to meet you. Then stop presenting your fantasies as facts.

    Oh yes, the worgen who came to the aid of the elves, with whom they literally lived, is a deus ex machine. Not Northrend Magnataurs, no. I wonder if a Stormwind guard starts to fight the Horde when invading Stormwind, is this a deus ex machine?

    Matthias Shaw and Nathanos literally stated that there were a couple of weeks left before the Alliance would win. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHPHAVHPAVHPAVHPHAVH you literally recognize Sylvanas as a goddess and say that everything happens the way she wants? Thanks dude


    Yes, you know, Legion buildings are more durable than Horde buildings.

    Oh really? Then I'm sorry, I'm sure the goblins lay down to win the whole war with one button, ahahahahahahahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    The main use of Vindicaar is quick troop transport through the beacons, which they did utilise to some extent. And if it really became an insurmountable problem it'S not like the Blelves haven't taken much much bigger spacecraft of similar craft, in the past. Or use any number of other methods to assault it, while it gets in position to do it's laser.

    Well shooting someone, in bodyarmor still constitutes as shooting someone... The matter of giving up after the first 2 rounds proved ineffective doesn't change that lol.
    Yes, I know, and yet it can shoot. On Argus, you literally have the ability to ask the Vindicaar to fire and this deals Light damage to all the demons around. It's not even that the Vindicaar can destroy buildings, the point is that he can destroy troops. He can just fly and shoot Horde soldiers.

    Once again, I have already said that this comparison is wrong because it must be compared with the fact that you wanted to shoot and were interrupted twice, and then you changed your mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Given how spotty your lore knowledge is, it's not surprising canon lore hurts you. Nothing I said there was incorrect. If it was you'd be able to actually point out which part of what I said was incorrect. Instead you're harping on how you haven't said that the Horde teamed up with the Blue Dragonflight, even though, you know, I didn't say you have either. So you and your "lore knowledge" are tilting at windmills right here. You did however try to built a narrative that the Horde wasn't fighting alone just because they nabbed an artifact off of them. All the while merrily ignoring that at the same time the Alliance had three neutral parties assisting Theramore.

    Also, it's goddamn hilarious that when the Horde steals the Focusing Iris it's "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" but when Jaina uses it this tangent magically disappears into the nether from which you initially pulled it. Horde using beasts though? Would you look at that, "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" returns in an instant. I guess no one ever told you about the Alliance using horses or nightsabers.

    And it's endearing that you're parroting what I told you to prove... whatever it is you convinced yourself you're proving by doing so. It's still not an actual argument, but hey, it's closer than you were before. You're welcome, I guess.




    This is just you trying to desperately split hairs. Whatever creatures the Horde subdues are a part of their forces. Also, the Horde didn't subdue the dragons because they felt they had no other option to win during the Second War. They subdued them because they stumbled upon an opportunity to do so and simply followed up on it, because why gimp themselves.




    You literally called them "not the Horde's actions". So what's this? Are you by per chance trying to squirm out of your blatantly wrong argument? How can it be when you have such pristine lore knowledge, I wonder. You should stand by the arguments it created, no?




    The Exodar was messed up during transit, actually. It "landed" precisely because of that. And given how we kill those Antaen without an issue later, they weren't exactly some mystical obliterators of doom with unmatched firepower.




    Uh-huh. You knew about it so well that you repeatedly argued that the Horde was not fighting alone while mentioning nothing of the sort for the Alliance. I don't have to try to catch you at all. You do it for me by arguing yourself into a hole time and time again. But please do tell me more about how you're the god king of lore knowledge and that I somehow "get confused by not giving no evidence", when: 1. you haven't sources squat so far so I don't have to either, 2. I can source literally everything I said if needs be, all the while you're spreading some hot takes about the Xenedar being shot down by Fel cannons (or, in your subsequent reply to @Super Dickmann, that Theramore wasn't even an Alliance member at the time of its destruction when it's been one since at least Vanilla, with Jaina outright referring to Varian as her king at one point).




    Why does it seem that opening tiny holes in the outer walls of a fortress is a far cry from destroying entire cities, which is what you claimed about the Vindicaar just one post earlier? Oh, right, because it is. Also, the Goblin in the quest you linked talks about the Re-Sizer v9.0.1 gun. Not sure what a gun has to do with Azerite War Machine or what a random Goblin not understanding the tool he was provided with proves in regard to the Azerite War Machine, but I guess it's something your totes superior lore knowledge led you to. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Horde stole the plans for the Azerite War Machine when the Alliance had no clue what they were facing when Sylvanas deployed it at Lordaeron and their only response to seeing it was "let's smack it till it's dead", with the Alliance building one only after the fact.




    It's really damn hilarious that you're trying to insult my brain in the very same sentence in which you showed that you don't know something as basic to argumentation as what a positive claim is, to the point it left you completely flabbergasted. MMO-C once again delivers.




    Technically the AU in which she did drown Orgrimmar ended up with the Horde destroying the Alliance.
    Oh god dude, how bad you know lore. It almost pains me to read your messages. If you studied lore you wouldn't say such nonsense. You literally pointed out that I said that the Horde had allied with the blue dragons, I pointed out that I don’t say that. Memory problems?

    LOL what? The Horde left it there and several Horde soldiers were sent to retrieve it (and Jaina killed them). And in the end, she only used it to kill the Krakens (again, because the Horde does not know how to fight honestly and cannot defeat the Alliance in a naval battle). Please, child, stop embarrassing yourself.


    AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAH, as you say) Yes, the Horde constantly uses such opportunities and shows that it cannot defeat the Alliance only on its own.


    Could you not express yourself like an ogrin from Warhammer 40k? I did not understand anything from the nonsense that you wrote.

    Yes, as I said, the blood elves sabotaged it from within. Are you dyslexic? Do you not understand what I am writing? And again, nonsense. Seriously, don't disgrace yourself. Durability has nothing to do with destructive power. Just because a Horde character can kill an Antaena does not mean that he can do the same. For example, Anduin destroys an Azerite Tank. Does that mean Anduin can do the same thing as this tank? No, really, you at least try to think before you answer me?

    Sorry what? Has the Alliance captured the magnataurs? Asked Azshara for help? Used kraken? I agree that Jaina asked Rhonin for help and this was fully compensated by Thalen's actions. So far, you have provided me with nothing but your fantasies.


    Once again, Horde buildings are not the same as Legion buildings. Or do you think the Vindicare cannot destroy the huts in Mulgore? And by the way, the Vindicare can also just shoot the Horde soldiers. On Argus, you can literally invoke the power of the Vindicaar to shoot the demons with beams of Light. Although how do you know about this, because Sylvanas is not involved in this quest. God, you really have trouble reading, these are two different things. I talked about this https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Doom%27s_Howl
    ''Doom's Howl was created from stolen Alliance engineering plans''


    I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just pointing out that you literally don't know anything. Your arguments literally boil down to the fact that if the Horde can kill a demon, then the Horde can do everything the same as that demon.


    LOL what? Where did you get the bullshit about the Horde winning this timeline? Kalecgos simply says that after the destruction of Orgrimmar, everyone died in the war, not a word about the victory of the Horde. Could you stop pulling things out of your ass and start pulling them out of books? Oh yes, I forgot, the death of everyone is considered a victory for the Horde, because even then Sylvanas worked for the Jailer and wanted it, even if she was not a Warchief.
    Last edited by darkoms; 2021-10-24 at 03:05 AM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Yes, I know, and yet it can shoot. On Argus, you literally have the ability to ask the Vindicaar to fire and this deals Light damage to all the demons around. It's not even that the Vindicaar can destroy buildings, the point is that he can destroy troops. He can just fly and shoot Horde soldiers.

    Once again, I have already said that this comparison is wrong because it must be compared with the fact that you wanted to shoot and were interrupted twice, and then you changed your mind.
    Even if it is that effective the Horde has previously displayed that it's more than capable of dealing with airborne weapons platforms(Including the Tempest Keep, which is like that, except several times over, with a capital ship) so keeping it out of range and using it's utility is actually a sound decision. (basically the problem with any aircraft larger than a 1 person plane/mech suit is that the enemy can just teleport a bomb onto it, for example)

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Oh god dude, how bad you know lore. It almost pains me to read your messages. If you studied lore you wouldn't say such nonsense. You literally pointed out that I said that the Horde had allied with the blue dragons, I pointed out that I don’t say that. Memory problems?
    First of all, even if you were right, which you are not as per usual, this wouldn't reflect on my lore knowledge one way or another, because the issue at hand here is what I said or did not say about your claim few posts up the chain. Making your remarks about my lore knowledge here utterly hollow. It appears like you've lost track what you're even arguing at this point. And it just so happens I did not say a word about your claim being that the Horde allied with the blue dragons. This is what I actually said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    This is just more of your patent nonsense. The only way in which Theramore wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle would be because there were neutrals aiding the Alliance. Including the only member of the Blue Dragonflight participating in the conflict, for that matter. Garrosh didn't team up with the dragons. He stole a magical artifact from them and ordered the very much Horde Blood Elves to construct a bomb. All the while being completely hush-hush how the Alliance used it as well, just ineffectively.
    Where do you see me accusing you of making the claim that the Horde allied with the dragons? Because it's nowhere in that post. What your claim however was that Theramore was a piece of evidence for your claim that the Horde can't win fights on its own. And me pointing out that the Horde did not ally with the Blue Dragonflight was made to disprove that. In no language does it mean you were claiming the opposite.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    LOL what? The Horde left it there and several Horde soldiers were sent to retrieve it (and Jaina killed them). And in the end, she only used it to kill the Krakens (again, because the Horde does not know how to fight honestly and cannot defeat the Alliance in a naval battle). Please, child, stop embarrassing yourself.
    And how is the method of acquisition supposed to change the fact that Jaina used an artifact you classified as outside help for the Horde? Unless you want to tell me it's not the usage of the Focusing Iris that constituted them having outside help but it's the act of Horde soldiers attacking the blue dragons guarding itself that's supposed to be the outside help they had at Theramore. But that'd make even less sense than this double standard of yours that you're trying to distract people from here, so I'm not sure why you even bothered.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAH, as you say) Yes, the Horde constantly uses such opportunities and shows that it cannot defeat the Alliance only on its own.
    This doesn't really answer the paragraph that you were addressing here.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Could you not express yourself like an ogrin from Warhammer 40k? I did not understand anything from the nonsense that you wrote.
    Not that this would particularly surprise me if you were genuine about it, but you somehow immediately addressed both of the points from the paragraph in question immediately below. So this is just you lashing out (because you have to fill your reply with something given the lack of arguments). Which does nothing to give this post any credibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Yes, as I said, the blood elves sabotaged it from within. Are you dyslexic? Do you not understand what I am writing? And again, nonsense. Seriously, don't disgrace yourself. Durability has nothing to do with destructive power. Just because a Horde character can kill an Antaena does not mean that he can do the same. For example, Anduin destroys an Azerite Tank. Does that mean Anduin can do the same thing as this tank? No, really, you at least try to think before you answer me?
    Your question is rather ironic, given what you opened this reply with (and other gems later on). And yes, I understand what you wrote just fine. Which is why I understood that you made the false claim that Exodar was was defeated upon landing. Which, you know, is why I corrected it. Mind = blown. Very effective deflection you got there. Furthermore, my point had nothing to do with the Antaen's durability. It's with us surviving a fight with it while it was attacking us, because the Antaen didn't just stand there and take it until its durability failed it. But yes, I'm totally disgracing myself with your lack of understanding what you're even replying to


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Sorry what? Has the Alliance captured the magnataurs? Asked Azshara for help? Used kraken? I agree that Jaina asked Rhonin for help and this was fully compensated by Thalen's actions. So far, you have provided me with nothing but your fantasies.
    The Alliance had non-Alliance Worgen, which I already pointed out and which you merrily tried to hand-wave away and, when that failed, started to completely ignore because you have no way to counter it. And do you mean Thalen, the member of the Horde? Very outside help right there. Also, Jaina didn't ask just Rhonin for help. She asked the Kirin'tor in general. And Sha'tar too. And the Blue Dragonflight. Is one Blood Elf supposed to compensate for all of them?


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Once again, Horde buildings are not the same as Legion buildings. Or do you think the Vindicare cannot destroy the huts in Mulgore? And by the way, the Vindicare can also just shoot the Horde soldiers. On Argus, you can literally invoke the power of the Vindicaar to shoot the demons with beams of Light. Although how do you know about this, because Sylvanas is not involved in this quest.
    Weird, all you're talking about is buildings and soldiers. How is that supposed to prove your claim that the Vindicaar can destroy entire cities, exactly? Also, I know about the Vindicar's ability to shoot at soldiers just fine. Which is why I know it had a hefty recharge time. Weird how a lore mastermind like you failed to mention that.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    God, you really have trouble reading, these are two different things. I talked about this https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Doom%27s_Howl
    ''Doom's Howl was created from stolen Alliance engineering plans''
    You said "the Azerite tank of the Horde". In no way did you specify which one you were talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just pointing out that you literally don't know anything. Your arguments literally boil down to the fact that if the Horde can kill a demon, then the Horde can do everything the same as that demon.
    Right ,right, the remark about my brain was totes legit not meant to offend me. And it's funny how all of your examples of me not knowing anything in this post are all cases of you misreading what you're replying to, vide the remark about Antaen that you're harping on again here.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    LOL what? Where did you get the bullshit about the Horde winning this timeline? Kalecgos simply says that after the destruction of Orgrimmar, everyone died in the war, not a word about the victory of the Horde. Could you stop pulling things out of your ass and start pulling them out of books? Oh yes, I forgot, the death of everyone is considered a victory for the Horde, because even then Sylvanas worked for the Jailer and wanted it, even if she was not a Warchief.
    I am getting my "bullshit" from the books. Meanwhile you're quite explicitly getting your "wisdom" from just the summary on wowpedia, given how your wording matches what's written there 100%. Had you actually read the book you'd have known that when our Kalec asked the evil Kalec who he meant when he was talking about how they're "all gone", the evil Kalec clarified how he was talking about the people he actually gave a damn about, like Jaina, the blues and Anveena. Kalec has never cared much for the Horde. Meanwhile he fought for it at Theramore.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Hmm, yes, you're right, Theramore was part of the Alliance. But i still think it's still much more neutral than the regular Alliance and Horde soldiers and Jaina was constantly trying to bring peace between the Alliance and the Horde. I'm also not sure if what you used in the example was a direct order from Jaina. Many people in Theramore wanted a war with the Horde as seen in The Cycle of Haatred and Jaina was totally against it. Once again, mana bombs are okay, there are no blue dragons to use such a powerful weapon. As we have noticed, only the Horde does this kind of thing.
    "More neutral" makes no sense. You're either neutral or you're not. And Jaina was so much "more neutral" than the rest of the Alliance that it's Theramore's Northatch forces that attacked the Barrens before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale and Theramore's Northwatch Expeditionary Force that spearheaded the Alliance offensive in central Kalimdor, taking part in fighting in Northern and Southern Barrens, Stonetalon, Durotar and Azshara, attempted to invade Mulgore and planned an attack on Orgrimmar right at the very start of the war.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    But this is not the same. You didn't shoot someone, you wanted to shoot and you were prevented.
    Except as @Super Dickmann quite clearly pointed out, she did shoot. The "bullet" was simply blocked.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-10-25 at 10:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    really the way they handled teldrassil was atrocious.

    Demolishers out of nowhere after hyping Azerite weaponry, a deadly ritual envoking a goddess that... really didn't do much of anything.... Malfurion surviving to not do anything outside of a single cutscene.

    Really if they had just not made the burning so blatant and not done in a relatively controlled manner....ugh...

    Like a near miss on an Azerite Bomb done at the same time as say, Tyrande invoking Elune's Wrath to bring vengeance on the world and some vague uncertainty about which was it that did more dmg and maybe the story could have worked out better.

    edit:
    What really irks me more about BFA isn't that they wrote the horde as unqestionably the villains out the gate.. it's that they wrote all parties as blithering idiots. Like Alliance forces giving chase in hot pursuit..... STRAIGHT into a port acting surprised when a navy did them dirty for entering another nations waters... Horde all just going along moping that Sylvanas was doing things... A whole ass cutscene with Baine and Saurfang acting like a couple highschoolers at the lunch table talking about Sylvanas and Galywix...
    thats why i said bfa is prob the worst expansion on lore by a mile, if we start digging more we can discover even more BS, and if we start talking about it just make then worse

  14. #214
    A good warchief has yet to exist.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Garrosh didn't even fight personally´
    Clearly you didn't read the book, Garrosh always fought personally when he could.
    and what does that have to do with it? Varian and Garrosh had a duel and Varian won with the blessing of the wild god, yes
    it was not fair, it was something OUTSIDE of the two factions that made the alliance win, why using the bless of a wild god is fine but an arcane artifact isn't?

    at least the mana artifact isn't a deus ex machina, it makes sense in the narrative, as we saw before, it was build by specialists and did the job.
    But the Alliance army had already won and without their dupe.
    they won simple because the writers want it.
    Um, and the magnataurs that came out of nowhere weren't that moment?
    ?? it was said he brought then from nortrend, something cohesive with the narrative, we even have the reasons why they would obey.


    Nathanos literally says in 8.1 that there are a couple of weeks left before the victory of the Alliance, and that was before the uprising of Bane or Saurfang. On the contrary, the Horde didn't lose just because Sylvanas made a deal with Azshara.
    the horde would literally win the war in teldrasil lmao.

    I don't remember the Alliance ever making a deal with someone like Archimonde to destroy the Horde troops.
    the alliance only won the second war because the horde fought itself

    Yes, you know, Legion buildings are more durable than Horde buildings.
    proof
    Oh really? Then I'm sorry, I'm sure the goblins lay down to win the whole war with one button, ahahahahahahahaha
    who said that? you are just making a strawman here, i merely said they would respond in the same level if the allianc wanted nuclear war kind of deal

  16. #216
    Nope, Horde basicly lost on every front in this war.
    We gained nothing under her leadership only lost things.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    First of all, even if you were right, which you are not as per usual, this wouldn't reflect on my lore knowledge one way or another, because the issue at hand here is what I said or did not say about your claim few posts up the chain. Making your remarks about my lore knowledge here utterly hollow. It appears like you've lost track what you're even arguing at this point. And it just so happens I did not say a word about your claim being that the Horde allied with the blue dragons. This is what I actually said:


    Where do you see me accusing you of making the claim that the Horde allied with the dragons? Because it's nowhere in that post. What your claim however was that Theramore was a piece of evidence for your claim that the Horde can't win fights on its own. And me pointing out that the Horde did not ally with the Blue Dragonflight was made to disprove that. In no language does it mean you were claiming the opposite.




    And how is the method of acquisition supposed to change the fact that Jaina used an artifact you classified as outside help for the Horde? Unless you want to tell me it's not the usage of the Focusing Iris that constituted them having outside help but it's the act of Horde soldiers attacking the blue dragons guarding itself that's supposed to be the outside help they had at Theramore. But that'd make even less sense than this double standard of yours that you're trying to distract people from here, so I'm not sure why you even bothered.




    This doesn't really answer the paragraph that you were addressing here.




    Not that this would particularly surprise me if you were genuine about it, but you somehow immediately addressed both of the points from the paragraph in question immediately below. So this is just you lashing out (because you have to fill your reply with something given the lack of arguments). Which does nothing to give this post any credibility.




    Your question is rather ironic, given what you opened this reply with (and other gems later on). And yes, I understand what you wrote just fine. Which is why I understood that you made the false claim that Exodar was was defeated upon landing. Which, you know, is why I corrected it. Mind = blown. Very effective deflection you got there. Furthermore, my point had nothing to do with the Antaen's durability. It's with us surviving a fight with it while it was attacking us, because the Antaen didn't just stand there and take it until its durability failed it. But yes, I'm totally disgracing myself with your lack of understanding what you're even replying to




    The Alliance had non-Alliance Worgen, which I already pointed out and which you merrily tried to hand-wave away and, when that failed, started to completely ignore because you have no way to counter it. And do you mean Thalen, the member of the Horde? Very outside help right there. Also, Jaina didn't ask just Rhonin for help. She asked the Kirin'tor in general. And Sha'tar too. And the Blue Dragonflight. Is one Blood Elf supposed to compensate for all of them?




    Weird, all you're talking about is buildings and soldiers. How is that supposed to prove your claim that the Vindicaar can destroy entire cities, exactly? Also, I know about the Vindicar's ability to shoot at soldiers just fine. Which is why I know it had a hefty recharge time. Weird how a lore mastermind like you failed to mention that.




    You said "the Azerite tank of the Horde". In no way did you specify which one you were talking about.




    Right ,right, the remark about my brain was totes legit not meant to offend me. And it's funny how all of your examples of me not knowing anything in this post are all cases of you misreading what you're replying to, vide the remark about Antaen that you're harping on again here.




    I am getting my "bullshit" from the books. Meanwhile you're quite explicitly getting your "wisdom" from just the summary on wowpedia, given how your wording matches what's written there 100%. Had you actually read the book you'd have known that when our Kalec asked the evil Kalec who he meant when he was talking about how they're "all gone", the evil Kalec clarified how he was talking about the people he actually gave a damn about, like Jaina, the blues and Anveena. Kalec has never cared much for the Horde. Meanwhile he fought for it at Theramore.




    "More neutral" makes no sense. You're either neutral or you're not. And Jaina was so much "more neutral" than the rest of the Alliance that it's Theramore's Northatch forces that attacked the Barrens before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale and Theramore's Northwatch Expeditionary Force that spearheaded the Alliance offensive in central Kalimdor, taking part in fighting in Northern and Southern Barrens, Stonetalon, Durotar and Azshara, attempted to invade Mulgore and planned an attack on Orgrimmar right at the very start of the war.




    Except as @Super Dickmann quite clearly pointed out, she did shoot. The "bullet" was simply blocked.
    I'm just pointing out to you how poorly you know lore. Perhaps if Sylvanas weren't the only thing you're interested in, you wouldn't be so embarrassed.

    Then why did you point this out at all? This is exactly what I was talking about, the Horde cannot win in a fair war and attacks dragons for their artifacts, why did you even mention uniting with dragons at all.


    I point out that first it is used by the Horde (because it cannot win in any other way), and then it is used by Jaina to balance that the Horde will again use some other things (in this case, the Kraken)

    I just pointed out that I barely understand you, because you are talking some nonsense.


    What? What is a false statement? I told you bluntly that sabotaging a ship from the inside is not the same as shooting it down from the outside. Should I explain such simple things? And again you write nonsense. How does the fact that we survived the battle against Antaen indicate that the Horde can bring down the Vindicaar? Antaen had to shoot at his feet to kill us or what? Not to mention the fact that as far as I remember, in order to shoot him first you need to concentrate and aim, which is quite difficult when a bunch of mortals are running under your feet and constantly hitting you. Again, I ask you not to write such nonsense, because it is a little tiring to explain such things to you. By the way, the heroes once killed Archimonde (with the help of Khadgar, Yrel and Grommash). Does this mean that the heroes can survive the explosion of the planet? Or can they blow up the planet themselves because Archimonde can? Have you ever come across such a concept as logic in your life, or do you just think that if A is stronger than B, then A has all the abilities of B?


    I told you literally three times that the worgen's help compensated the magnataurs and I still don't understand why you are saying this nonsense. The worgen were already practically in the Alliance, their entry was discussed before this battle and the worgen lived in the territory of the night elves. Are you suggesting that the worgen were supposed to look like the night elves who sheltered them? Now compare that to the magnataurs who were forcibly captured and used as weapons. I mean, should I, then, complain that the bronze dragon helped the hero of the Horde gain access to Draenor, even though the bronze dragon is not part of the Horde? Or that goblins are much more inclined to help the Horde? And I'm not talking about playable goblins, but goblins in Tanaris. In Before the Storm, it is explicitly stated that they remain neutral, but have closer ties with the Horde and can tell them information that they do not tell the Alliance. These are the things that can be compared, not that the worgen went out to defend practically their new home (because the Horde destroyed the original one). The Alliance did not attack the Wo or force them to help. Can't you really see the difference? And Thalen was there as a member of the Kirin Tor, but decided to help the Horde. And yes, I think it was even (especially considering how helpful Thalen's actions were). Another mistake. She only asked for the Kirin Tor. Shattrath's forces arrived at Khadgar's request. Sorry what? Is this another stupid joke? Blue dragons? You mean those blue dragons that the Horde attacked in the first place and took their artifact? They should have just forgotten about it, how did Odyn forget about Sylvanas? How often does the world have to adjust to the Horde so that they continue to do bullshit with impunity?



    I am simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your claim that if the Vindicare could only pierce a small gap in Antorus, he would not do anything in Orgrimmar. Not to mention the fact that the Vindicaar was not supposed to punch any huge holes, the whole plan was for a group of heroes to enter Antorus and kill the leaders of the Legion (this is what the heroes have always done). Of course it has a recharge time. This does not mean that he will not kill a bunch of Horde soldiers in one volley.


    Um, what exactly should I have pointed out to you? I told you that the Horde Azerite Tank was crafted from stolen Alliance blueprints, what did you confuse it with?


    Do not be offended, I didn’t on purpose.


    Once again, what the hell did you write? I read the book (and I even checked this passage on purpose before answering you) and although I read it translated into my language, I doubt they missed it. Sorry what? Does the fact that Jaina died mean the Horde won the WAR? Are you ... Are you serious now? This is literally the dumbest thing you've ever written on this thread (and that's a big achievement, seriously). Do you think Jaina's death is an auto-blame for the Horde or what? The fact that Kalec does not care about the Horde means that the Horde won because Kalec only mentions the death of those he loves ... No, really, my brain boiled from such stupidity. You are such a fanboy of the Horde (although more likely of Sylvanas) that you literally come up with lore and distort the opinions of the characters to make your argument look adequate. Please never write such nonsense again and only say what you can prove, not make it up.

    Truth? Was that Jaina's order? Because in The Cycle of Hate, it was revealed that many in Theramore hate the Horde, and Jaina did not share their opinion.


    Except I already pointed out that this is a dumb example. This can be compared to the fact that you want to shoot and at this moment someone hits you on the hand. Shooting a bulletproof vest would be comparable to the fact that the buildings of the Horde were so strong that the flood did nothing for them, and all the inhabitants were able to evacuate or climb so high that the water did not touch them and they survived.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Clearly you didn't read the book, Garrosh always fought personally when he could.


    it was not fair, it was something OUTSIDE of the two factions that made the alliance win, why using the bless of a wild god is fine but an arcane artifact isn't?

    at least the mana artifact isn't a deus ex machina, it makes sense in the narrative, as we saw before, it was build by specialists and did the job.


    they won simple because the writers want it.


    ?? it was said he brought then from nortrend, something cohesive with the narrative, we even have the reasons why they would obey.




    the horde would literally win the war in teldrasil lmao.



    the alliance only won the second war because the horde fought itself



    proof


    who said that? you are just making a strawman here, i merely said they would respond in the same level if the allianc wanted nuclear war kind of deal
    Oh yes, the same Garrosh who killed a million night elves alone. Don't be silly, by the time he met Varian he was full of energy.

    Maybe because Goldrinn blessed only Varian and only at the time of his duel with Garrosh (which still did not affect anything because the Alliance was already winning due to the intervention of the worgen) and did it of his own free will? He was not forced as magnataurs or attacked as blue dragons.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHPAHVPHAVH, okay, now you're just trolling. Anything can be justified by the phrase that the writers want it. What's the point of arguing if you reduce everything to this argument because you have no others? Theramore was destroyed because the writers wanted it, the wild gods ignored the destruction of Teldrassil because the writers wanted it, Odin forgot about Sylvanas because the writers wanted it.


    I may be wrong, but didn't the magnataurs obey because the Horde captured their children?


    How? In Elegy, there is a moment in which Sylvanas thinks that Teldrassil will sooner or later have to be burned, because she will not be able to hold him while Malfurion is alive, who will appear out of nowhere and kill Horde soldiers (they explained this on Twitter when they were asked why Sylvanas wanted to burn Teldrassil from the start).


    The Horde didn't lose in 8.1 just because Azshara intervened. At the moment of 8.1, the Horde was not fighting with itself and the Alliance was still winning. As the Alliance always does. Defeats the Horde. The last time the Horde defeated the Alliance in a war was Warcraft 1. Do you miss those days?


    Proof that Horde buildings are as durable as Legion buildings. I have a lot of free time, and you?


    The Horde Azerite Tank was built from the stolen Alliance blueprints, so I'm sorry I doubt the goblin tech isn't as cool as you might think and I don't believe in this goblin cannon.
    Last edited by darkoms; 2021-10-27 at 11:32 PM.

  18. #218
    A good Warchief is someone who is willing to put their life on the line to protect the Horde, there's no way around this. And Sylvanas was the complete opposite of this. She used the Horde as meat shield and threw them into the meat grinder in the service of Satan.

    Between her, Blackhand, and Garrosh, it's a good contest on who was the worst scum who ever got the title.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by tromage2 View Post
    Nope, Horde basicly lost on every front in this war.
    We gained nothing under her leadership only lost things.
    Words that Sylvanas' fanboys will never recognize

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    A good Warchief is someone who is willing to put their life on the line to protect the Horde, there's no way around this. And Sylvanas was the complete opposite of this. She used the Horde as meat shield and threw them into the meat grinder in the service of Satan.

    Between her, Blackhand, and Garrosh, it's a good contest on who was the worst scum who ever got the title.
    Again, as I pointed out in the original post, we are not comparing motives, but actions. Did her actions benefit the Horde in the long term or harm?

  20. #220
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Oh yes, the same Garrosh who killed a million night elves alone. Don't be silly, by the time he met Varian he was full of energy.
    He wasn't, again, you didn't read the book, stop talking like you did.

    when both of then were rested and Varian didn't had wild god pwoers Garrosh kick his ass.

    Maybe because Goldrinn blessed only Varian and only at the time of his duel with Garrosh (which still did not affect anything because the Alliance was already winning due to the intervention of the worgen) and did it of his own free will? He was not forced as magnataurs or attacked as blue dragons.
    your sole pint is that one was "fre will" and the other was "forced'? this is a bs argumment

    both of the events happened outside the spectre of the factions, at least if you forced something to obey means you at least had work to do and it was not given to your lap that easily.

    Plus, forcing magnataurs to obey is more coherent than a wild god sudenly wanting to give aa HUMAN his powers, instead of a night elf or, another worgen.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHPAHVPHAVH, okay, now you're just trolling. Anything can be justified by the phrase that the writers want it. What's the point of arguing if you reduce everything to this argument because you have no others? Theramore was destroyed because the writers wanted it, the wild gods ignored the destruction of Teldrassil because the writers wanted it, Odin forgot about Sylvanas because the writers wanted it.
    i mean, this is where the things revolves, people saying shit about how the alliance didn't win the war because the writers didn't want it, how the horde still survive because the writers want it, im merely turning the logic to the people who like saying that.

    I may be wrong, but didn't the magnataurs obey because the Horde captured their children?
    exactly, it was not a deus ex machina, isn't like the magntaurs "joined the horde as their own free will" who would be bullshit(and prob would happened if it was the alliance


    How? In Elegy, there is a moment in which Sylvanas thinks that Teldrassil will sooner or later have to be burned, because she will not be able to hold him while Malfurion is alive,
    EXACTLY

    they would have killed malfurion, like the plan, and, win the war afterwards.

    The Horde didn't lose in 8.1 just because Azshara intervened.
    The alliance didn't lose in 8.0 because elune interned to stop Saurfang, and/or the writers to make him dumb. sooooo
    At the moment of 8.1, the Horde was not fighting with itself and the Alliance was still winning.
    you must have slept that expansion cause one, sylvanas wanst' trying to win the war, obviouslly the alliance would have the upperhand, fighting an enemy who wasn't trying to win

    second the hrode was already starting to "fight itself"
    As the Alliance always does. Defeats the Horde.
    alliance only defeated the horde back in wc2 because gul'dan betrayed the horde and they fought itself

    Alliance didn't defeat the horde in MOP, they helped the horde to defeat Garrosh.
    The last time the Horde defeated the Alliance in a war was Warcraft 1. Do you miss those days?
    funny how the horde wins everytime they fought fairly isn't?

    Proof that Horde buildings are as durable as Legion buildings. I have a lot of free time, and you?
    you said they aren't, its up to you to show that, regardless of that being besides the point as the ship lazers where show to barely destroy rocks in antorus where you get treasures., ia ssume you played the expansion right?

    The Horde Azerite Tank was built from the stolen Alliance blueprints, so I'm sorry I doubt the goblin tech isn't as cool as you might think and I don't believe in this goblin cannon.
    i don't know if they rly stole, cause i need a source of that, but they were the first to build, as the first azerite war machine was show in battle of lordaeron in possession of the horde

    plus, just looking at the iron horde tech it is far ahead any alliance shenanigans in the destructiond epartment.

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