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  1. #181
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Then they can leave the order. If a Forsaken is part of the Argent Crusade he has already forsaken his original allegiances anyway. Isn't there an ex-Forsaken in the Crusade who even denounced Sylvanas as a tyrant?
    I'd think being non-Alliance citizens based in Hearthglen, Light's Hope Chapel, and Tyr's Hand (already reclaimed and most likely repopulated, just not reflected in-game) already makes them members by default; I'd think Leonid and Judkins would assume being members of the Alliance would be death sentence to them, in their perspective considering how they see the Alliance's racism.

    edit: I'd assume they're still technically Horde even if they denounced Sylvanas' cruelty, just that they refuse to recognize her as the leader of the Forsaken by then

    But still, I think Turalyon should occupy, sanction, and punish the Argents for doing nothing for the Lordaeronians who died in Southshore, Hillsbrad, Fenris Keep, and the Lordaeronians who were tortured to death by Garrosh's loyalists under Orgrimmar, and the entirety of the Fourth War; and the Horde should interfere like Eitrigg's personal debt to Tirion - just as how the Alliance interfered in the Horde's invasion of Gilneas
    Last edited by Ardenaso; 2021-10-25 at 10:55 AM.
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  2. #182
    Loa of Death Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Plus there are seeds of her insanity, like her making a deal with Troll Satan, she is not a good person. It wouldn't surprise me if she somehow escalated tensions because she's still mad her father chose the wrong side during a war and paid the ultimate price.
    'Troll Satan'

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  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I'd think being non-Alliance citizens based in Hearthglen, Light's Hope Chapel, and Tyr's Hand (already reclaimed and most likely repopulated, just not reflected in-game) already makes them members by default; I'd think Leonid and Judkins would assume being members of the Alliance would be death sentence to them, in their perspective considering how they see the Alliance's racism.

    edit: I'd assume they're still technically Horde even if they denounced Sylvanas' cruelty, just that they refuse to recognize her as the leader of the Forsaken by then

    But still, I think Turalyon should occupy, sanction, and punish the Argents for doing nothing for the Lordaeronians who died in Southshore, Hillsbrad, Fenris Keep, and the Lordaeronians who were tortured to death by Garrosh's loyalists under Orgrimmar, and the entirety of the Fourth War; and the Horde should interfere like Eitrigg's personal debt to Tirion - just as how the Alliance interfered in the Horde's invasion of Gilneas
    After the novel Before the Storm, where the Alliance made genuine efforts to reconnect with their Undead brethren before Sylvanas messed everything up, there's no excuse for any Forsaken to be afraid of the so-called "Alliance racism".

    Within the Alliance we literally have V O I D elves and L I G H T draenei, there is factually no racism within the Alliance. The modern one at least.

    I don't know why you think they'd still be Horde when the Horde is not the Argent Crusade. They are even tagged as Neutral in-game-

  4. #184
    The thing is, they need credible warmongers on both sides to make it not ridiculous.

    When Alliance were doing nothing but singing Kumbaya around a campfire and pushing for world peace, Sylvanas deciding they were such an imminent threat that she needed mass genocide to save themselves from destruction was completely stupid. (Even if that has now been retconned as part of her great 5D chess moves).

    If Genn had posed a credible imminent threat to the Horde it would have all been different. Imagine if Anduin was incapacitated by some rogue Orcs (possibly a false-flag) and it looked like Genn might take over and retaliate against the Horde capitals. THEN the whole dynamic of the start of BFA would be different and, though still abhorrent, there'd be reasoning in Sylvanas' actions.
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I'd think being non-Alliance citizens based in Hearthglen, Light's Hope Chapel, and Tyr's Hand (already reclaimed and most likely repopulated, just not reflected in-game) already makes them members by default; I'd think Leonid and Judkins would assume being members of the Alliance would be death sentence to them, in their perspective considering how they see the Alliance's racism.

    edit: I'd assume they're still technically Horde even if they denounced Sylvanas' cruelty, just that they refuse to recognize her as the leader of the Forsaken by then
    People who denounced Sylvanas fundamentally couldn't be Forsaken, because the Forsaken always have been Sylvanas's followers specifically. That's like saying Tirion was a member of the Defias Brotherhood, because he was human.

    But still, I think Turalyon should occupy, sanction, and punish the Argents for doing nothing for the Lordaeronians who died in Southshore, Hillsbrad, Fenris Keep, and the Lordaeronians who were tortured to death by Garrosh's loyalists under Orgrimmar, and the entirety of the Fourth War; and the Horde should interfere like Eitrigg's personal debt to Tirion - just as how the Alliance interfered in the Horde's invasion of Gilneas
    Attacking Argents of all people would be absolutely asinine, from Turalyon's position, because of how well regarded by everyone they are. If anything Turalyon would want to get some of that Scarlet business, because they're the faction most ideologically compatible, with AotL.

  6. #186
    Turalyon, under the influence of Lothraxion.

  7. #187
    War between the factions is clearly over for good, if you don't like the idea of that or grouping with the opposite faction to do pve you may need another game.
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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    After the novel Before the Storm, where the Alliance made genuine efforts to reconnect with their Undead brethren before Sylvanas messed everything up, there's no excuse for any Forsaken to be afraid of the so-called "Alliance racism".
    Yeah, this is just false on multiple fronts. First of all, the Gathering included only a handful of humans because of how many refused to come at all. Further ones rejected their Forsaken family members despite coming to the Gathering. And the Gathering was messed up by Anduin not living up to his part of the deal and letting in a usurper to Sylvanas' throne sneak into the Gathering, which he admitted.
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  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, this is just false on multiple fronts. First of all, the Gathering included only a handful of humans because of how many refused to come at all. Further ones rejected their Forsaken family members despite coming to the Gathering. And the Gathering was messed up by Anduin not living up to his part of the deal and letting in a usurper to Sylvanas' throne sneak into the Gathering, which he admitted.
    Anduin screwed up, but it's made very clear that Calia acted on her own against the wishes of Anduin and even she didn't plan to do it. As good of a hook as it would have been for BfA it just boils down to the Forsaken having an adverse reaction to having spotted Calia and Calia proceeding to vindicate every single one of their concerns. Message of the story? Purple lady bad!

  10. #190
    @Varodoc I always love the bullshit from Hordies trying to pin everything on "racism". It's advocating idiocy in the form of "well, just because all rattlesnakes are venomous, that doesn't mean THIS one is!"

    The Forsaken approached Stormwind in the retcon, only to be driven off? Well, no shit, it's almost like the Scourge completely wiped out Lordaeron and famously used trickery and deception to gain a foothold to do so. Trust these undead after that? You'd have to be insane. The Forsaken, instead of recognizing completely legitimate fears, immediately get butthurt and start proving those fears correct by developing plagues to destroy the living, torturing and experimenting on civilians. Sylvie ordered these actions (or at least did in the vanilla WoW canon, no doubt it's been updated to absolve the waifu) and was arrogant enough to keep a pet Dreadlord. Thrall, who ought to have slammed the brakes on Forsaken membership in the Horde solely due to that pet (orcs supposedly hate the Legion, right?) gargled the idiot ball and let her do her own thing while extending the Horde's protection. Yes, that does in fact mean all those atrocities are on the Forsaken and the Horde.

    But noooo, the problem is somehow "racism". If the Alliance would just accept that torturing peasants to death for plagues is Forsaken culture, all would be the happy hand-holding singalong that morons like Anduin's writers envision, right?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Varodoc I always love the bullshit from Hordies trying to pin everything on "racism". It's advocating idiocy in the form of "well, just because all rattlesnakes are venomous, that doesn't mean THIS one is!"

    The Forsaken approached Stormwind in the retcon, only to be driven off? Well, no shit, it's almost like the Scourge completely wiped out Lordaeron and famously used trickery and deception to gain a foothold to do so. Trust these undead after that? You'd have to be insane. The Forsaken, instead of recognizing completely legitimate fears, immediately get butthurt and start proving those fears correct by developing plagues to destroy the living, torturing and experimenting on civilians. Sylvie ordered these actions (or at least did in the vanilla WoW canon, no doubt it's been updated to absolve the waifu) and was arrogant enough to keep a pet Dreadlord. Thrall, who ought to have slammed the brakes on Forsaken membership in the Horde solely due to that pet (orcs supposedly hate the Legion, right?) gargled the idiot ball and let her do her own thing while extending the Horde's protection. Yes, that does in fact mean all those atrocities are on the Forsaken and the Horde.

    But noooo, the problem is somehow "racism". If the Alliance would just accept that torturing peasants to death for plagues is Forsaken culture, all would be the happy hand-holding singalong that morons like Anduin's writers envision, right?
    Well, I don't even have a problem admitting that the Alliance might have had some racism 15 years ago, but now they have clearly changed for the better. They welcomed warlocks, death knights, demon hunters, Ren'dorei, Lightforged Draenei, Dark Irons, etc. all under the same banner. They were even willing to welcome the Forsaken in Before the Storm until the tyrant Sylvanas, afraid to lose her grip on her people, started slaughtering her own kin and stopping them from reuniting with their Alliance brethren.

    However, since Sylvanas is finally defeated and the Forsaken are freed from her tyranny, there might be a new union in the future. I could see Calia negotiating and fighting for a new acceptance between the Forsaken and the Alliance. After all, all the evil Forsaken like Sylvanas, Nathanos, and in general the Banshee's Loyalists are gone.

  12. #192
    Mechagnome Archmage Xaxxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    War between the factions is clearly over for good, if you don't like the idea of that or grouping with the opposite faction to do pve you may need another game.
    I'm fine with working with the 'opposite faction' seeing as I play both and value their perspectives equally.

    I'm also alright with there being no actual war if that ends up being the case, however as I stated previously since the OP, I do believe that War-Desiring Characters are a must-have in this fantasy world even if they do not come to blows.

    And really, thing is there is no 'another game.' I'm not one of these false loyalists who will jump to the nearest MMO because WoW is lacking in one way or another. It's not about a game, it's about my investment into the storytelling of Azeroth/the World of Warcraft and the characters who ended up there, nameless or named alike.

    Sure, I play a few other titles, mostly for their own identities as IPs though. I don't play Halo 3 or Minecraft on occasion because it's the closest thing to WoW, just as I wouldn't play WoW to get those unique experiences from those two titles.

    The Warcraft Art on my walls can't be replaced with a bunch of cat-girls and have the same impact, not for me, fortunately.
    Last edited by Archmage Xaxxas; 2021-10-25 at 06:14 PM.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Anduin screwed up, but it's made very clear that Calia acted on her own against the wishes of Anduin and even she didn't plan to do it. As good of a hook as it would have been for BfA it just boils down to the Forsaken having an adverse reaction to having spotted Calia and Calia proceeding to vindicate every single one of their concerns. Message of the story? Purple lady bad!
    I know she did. Anduin was still responsible for the people brought on his side like the human Priests that Calia sneaked in as, just as Sylvanas was responsible for the people on hers. As per the conditions of the Gathering that he himself proposed, for that matter. Again, in his talk with Genn Anduin essentially admits that Sylvanas' retort about how it was him who violated the treaty was right and that contrary to his initial reaction in the heat of the moment he had no leg to stand on to do anything against the Horde over it. To the point he felt he couldn't even ask Stormwind itself to retaliate despite being its king, let alone the rest of the Alliance.

    But yes, I agree with how Blizzard completely failed to follow up on this as a hook. As garbage as this book was (even by WoW books "standards") this was one of the few things that could have led to something. Yet it's not even mentioned in passing in A Good War when Sylvanas was trying to convince Traitorfang that war with the Alliance was imminent and it was solely a question of "when" and not "if" where it'd be an interesting example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The Forsaken approached Stormwind in the retcon, only to be driven off? Well, no shit, it's almost like the Scourge completely wiped out Lordaeron and famously used trickery and deception to gain a foothold to do so. Trust these undead after that? You'd have to be insane.
    It isn't a retcon. The Forsaken had always been spurned by the living. That's where they got their name from. Even the part where Anduin confirms it was Stormwind specifically and apologized for what Stormwind did isn't a retcon, because it, you know, doesn't contradict anything. Also, the Forsaken are quite clearly not the Scourge, vide the part where they approached the living only after winning a civil war against the Scourge, firmly establishing them as non-Scourge enemies of the Lich King. And the Alliance's instant admission of Death Knights also throws a wrench into this whole thing. So does the part where Quel'Thalas, a kingdom infinitely more fucked by the Scourge than Stormwind, was somehow capable of spotting that the Forsaken split away from the Scourge and did not throw a hissy fit in response to them.

    Oh, and there's still not a single known survivor of Garithos' forces for Alliance to have any knowledge about the Forsaken's "famous" deception and trickery, making their claim to fame rather suspect and making it rather unlikely it contributed in any way, shape or form to the Alliance's decision making, because the Alliance can't act on something it doesn't know about.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-10-25 at 06:32 PM.
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  14. #194
    Alleria and Turalyon. At the very least, they can make the Alliance interesting again before Blanduin regains his rightful throne. I just hope they'll go out like Garrosh with their dignity intact and completely free from Blanduinism.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I know she did. Anduin was still responsible for the people brought on his side like the human Priests that Calia sneaked in as, just as Sylvanas was responsible for the people on hers. As per the conditions of the Gathering that he himself proposed, for that matter. Again, in his talk with Genn Anduin essentially admits that Sylvanas' retort about how it was him who violated the treaty was right and that contrary to his initial reaction in the heat of the moment he had no leg to stand on to do anything against the Horde over it. To the point he felt he couldn't even ask Stormwind itself to retaliate despite being its king, let alone the rest of the Alliance.

    But yes, I agree with how Blizzard completely failed to follow up on this as a hook. As garbage as this book was (even by WoW books "standards") this was one of the few things that could have led to something. Yet it's not even mentioned in passing in A Good War when Sylvanas was trying to convince Traitorfang that war with the Alliance was imminent and it was solely a question of "when" and not "if" where it'd be an interesting example.




    It isn't a retcon. The Forsaken had always been spurned by the living. That's where they got their name from. Even the part where Anduin confirms it was Stormwind specifically and apologized for what Stormwind did isn't a retcon, because it, you know, doesn't contradict anything. Also, the Forsaken are quite clearly not the Scourge, vide the part where they approached the living only after winning a civil war against the Scourge, firmly establishing them as non-Scourge enemies of the Lich King. And the Alliance's instant admission of Death Knights also throws a wrench into this whole thing. So does the part where Quel'Thalas, a kingdom infinitely more fucked by the Scourge than Stormwind, was somehow capable of spotting that the Forsaken split away from the Scourge and did not throw a hissy fit in response to them.

    Oh, and there's still not a single known survivor of Garithos' forces for Alliance to have any knowledge about the Forsaken's "famous" deception and trickery, making their claim to fame rather suspect and making it rather unlikely it contributed in any way, shape or form to the Alliance's decision making, because the Alliance can't act on something it doesn't know about.
    Being rejected still a weak ass excuse for immediately turning into a bad copy of Nazi germany. If Alliance had some huge "deus vult" type force attacking them constantly then yes, it would have being a somewhat measured response. But it was not, it was like grabbing a knife and stabbing someone repeatedly for being told to shove off after you bumped into them on the street. And if they for example restricted their violence to Scarlets only, then it could have being made more excusable.

    And besides... The story of WoW (especially recently) Clearly tell us that any retaliation for any wrong is also WRONG. Why would those poor, rotten corpses choose renewal? Wouldnt it be just marvelous? Imagine the beauty of it...

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Being rejected still a weak ass excuse for immediately turning into a bad copy of Nazi germany. If Alliance had some huge "deus vult" type force attacking them constantly then yes, it would have being a somewhat measured response. But it was not, it was like grabbing a knife and stabbing someone repeatedly for being told to shove off after you bumped into them on the street. And if they for example restricted their violence to Scarlets only, then it could have being made more excusable.

    And besides... The story of WoW (especially recently) Clearly tell us that any retaliation for any wrong is also WRONG. Why would those poor, rotten corpses choose renewal? Wouldnt it be just marvelous? Imagine the beauty of it...
    Old school Aliance and modern Aliance were very different beasts. The messengers thing was a neat bit of lore trivia, for a long time, where they did try to re-establish some sort of a working relationship, but never heard fromt he messengers again. Their skirmishers with Dalaran's outskirts, Southshore and so forth aren't really explored either and to be honest, at the point where we pick it up it'S kind of past the point of the inciting incident even being relevant, in their skirmishes. The church of Anduin has clearly done a lot of damage, but there still are the likes of Rogers to keep the torch burning.

    Yes, Tyrande's story should have been better, but there is a LOT of that going about lately... some semblance of coherence is more than most characters can hope for these days

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Old school Aliance and modern Aliance were very different beasts. The messengers thing was a neat bit of lore trivia, for a long time, where they did try to re-establish some sort of a working relationship, but never heard fromt he messengers again. Their skirmishers with Dalaran's outskirts, Southshore and so forth aren't really explored either and to be honest, at the point where we pick it up it'S kind of past the point of the inciting incident even being relevant, in their skirmishes. The church of Anduin has clearly done a lot of damage, but there still are the likes of Rogers to keep the torch burning.

    Yes, Tyrande's story should have been better, but there is a LOT of that going about lately... some semblance of coherence is more than most characters can hope for these days
    Rogers began hating Forsaken after they killed all the people she knew in Southshore.

    There was really never the "both sides" thing with Forsaken VS Humans. Orcs VS Humans? Yeah maybe. Trolls VS Humans? Sure. But Forsaken were always on the attack and always committing disproportionally horrible atrocities and using unnecessary brutal tactics.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Turalyon, under the influence of Lothraxion.

    This would be an interesting development.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Alleria and Turalyon. At the very least, they can make the Alliance interesting again before Blanduin regains his rightful throne. I just hope they'll go out like Garrosh with their dignity intact and completely free from Blanduinism.
    And then it ends with Turalyon coming out of his haze and finally seeing reason/the truth... and is forced to put Alleria out of her misery for succumbing to the shadow's whispers.

  19. #199
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    After the novel Before the Storm, where the Alliance made genuine efforts to reconnect with their Undead brethren before Sylvanas messed everything up, there's no excuse for any Forsaken to be afraid of the so-called "Alliance racism".

    Within the Alliance we literally have V O I D elves and L I G H T draenei, there is factually no racism within the Alliance. The modern one at least.

    I don't know why you think they'd still be Horde when the Horde is not the Argent Crusade. They are even tagged as Neutral in-game-
    Sylv's plan with the Gathering was to show the Forsaken how foul Alliance would be for them. Some returned early, bitter that they were rejected by their living family. The rest, those who had a good time, were killed in what appeared to be them attempting to defect to the enemy side. So the conclusion to the Gathering was that the Forsaken were left even more bitter and hateful towards the Alliance. Soon after they lost their city and much of their lands to said faction.

    Having said that, they are currently in a place where their minds can be swayed once more, as Sylv is gone and Calia is acting as their psychiatrist. Left to that they may once more turn their gaze towards their relatives in Stormwind.

    Conquest of Lordaeron would mess that up though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Varodoc I always love the bullshit from Hordies trying to pin everything on "racism". It's advocating idiocy in the form of "well, just because all rattlesnakes are venomous, that doesn't mean THIS one is!"

    The Forsaken approached Stormwind in the retcon, only to be driven off? Well, no shit, it's almost like the Scourge completely wiped out Lordaeron and famously used trickery and deception to gain a foothold to do so. Trust these undead after that? You'd have to be insane. The Forsaken, instead of recognizing completely legitimate fears, immediately get butthurt and start proving those fears correct by developing plagues to destroy the living, torturing and experimenting on civilians. Sylvie ordered these actions (or at least did in the vanilla WoW canon, no doubt it's been updated to absolve the waifu) and was arrogant enough to keep a pet Dreadlord. Thrall, who ought to have slammed the brakes on Forsaken membership in the Horde solely due to that pet (orcs supposedly hate the Legion, right?) gargled the idiot ball and let her do her own thing while extending the Horde's protection. Yes, that does in fact mean all those atrocities are on the Forsaken and the Horde.

    But noooo, the problem is somehow "racism". If the Alliance would just accept that torturing peasants to death for plagues is Forsaken culture, all would be the happy hand-holding singalong that morons like Anduin's writers envision, right?
    You're misfiring with your rant. The question wasn't about whether or not the Forsaken were in the right, but rather how they'd feel about joining the Alliance in their current situation. If the Argents bend the knee to Turalyon I feel Judkins and Leonid would rather choose Calia's Forsaken.
    Last edited by Zuben; 2021-10-25 at 10:08 PM.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It isn't a retcon. The Forsaken had always been spurned by the living. That's where they got their name from. Even the part where Anduin confirms it was Stormwind specifically and apologized for what Stormwind did isn't a retcon, because it, you know, doesn't contradict anything. Also, the Forsaken are quite clearly not the Scourge, vide the part where they approached the living only after winning a civil war against the Scourge, firmly establishing them as non-Scourge enemies of the Lich King. And the Alliance's instant admission of Death Knights also throws a wrench into this whole thing. So does the part where Quel'Thalas, a kingdom infinitely more fucked by the Scourge than Stormwind, was somehow capable of spotting that the Forsaken split away from the Scourge and did not throw a hissy fit in response to them.

    Oh, and there's still not a single known survivor of Garithos' forces for Alliance to have any knowledge about the Forsaken's "famous" deception and trickery, making their claim to fame rather suspect and making it rather unlikely it contributed in any way, shape or form to the Alliance's decision making, because the Alliance can't act on something it doesn't know about.
    Against my better judgment, I'll respond in hopes of civil discussion.

    The bit about Forsaken emissaries to Stormwind is new, it wasn't around at the time of vanilla WoW. Stormwind and most of the Alliance wasn't aware of the Forsaken being different from the Scourge, largely because Sylvanas promptly betrayed and slaughtered all witnesses to those events as you yourself have stated. The idea that they should have known the emissaries weren't Scourge is what makes it a retcon, or perhaps glaring inconsistency would be more correct. What they knew at the time was the Scourge had wiped out Lordaeron and had initially used treachery like the poisoned grain. It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to see how the sight of undead would cause panic, or among cooler heads, suspicion that this was a Scourge trick. I didn't say the Forsaken were famous for deception and trickery, because at the time they were not being distinguished from Scourge, who definitely use those tools.

    There are also several years between the rejection of the Forsaken and the acceptance of the Death Knights. The DKs were accepted because the Alliance had learned from the existence of the Forsaken that anti-Lich King undead could and did exist. Trying to claim equivalence between the two events completely ignores in game context.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    You're misfiring with your rant. The question wasn't about whether or not the Forsaken were in the right, but rather how they'd feel about joining the Alliance in their current situation. If the Argents bend the knee to Turalyon I feel Judkins and Leonid would rather choose Calia's Forsaken.
    I realize that. Even so, the cries of "racism" are patently ridiculous and almost always ignore context.

    @Varadoc That's the thing though, the Alliance of fifteen years ago had damn good reasons not to trust the various Horde peoples. Being on guard against a snake because it will bite you isn't racism.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2021-10-25 at 10:30 PM.

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