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  1. #421
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    The Fact remains the rational assumption the Dark Rangers would have had, based on her earlier comments & combined with her her rather shameless power grab within forsaken society, is that Calia had planned this defection.

    Sylvanas has a cold & strategic mind: Serving her is voluntary, but threatening her power? That's something that cannot be allowed. And she's no different from the other leaders in this way.
    sure you can assume any thing you want that doesn't make it any less unsupported head canon even more so when the book gives us Sylvanas's view on the matter with her "broken and bitter" bit.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #422
    The character is not important tho. His story is so short nobody would care if he is gone. I’d say the dog should be killed and that alliance spy Baine.

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    As others already said, it was more then clear who was and who wasnt defecting. It was not anywhere near some “blasting the crowd” and hitting innocent and guilty alike. It was just killing everybody by pure paranoia, even those would would kiss her boots in loyalty.
    To reiterate from the book. It's clearly stated that it's impossible to tell to what extent they're compromised and if they just got cold feet on last second. Not really a complex situation to unravel.

    Dar’khan was more like Godfrey then like Vereesa. Also Vereesa just wasnt about to become undead, her “betrayal” is just absolutely normal desire to live, she wasnt some treacherous snake betraying Sylvanas, no natter how psycho banshee spins it.
    Vereesa did betray and abandon her(and failed to prevent WoD by proxy). It wasn't malicious for Vereesa's part, but it is a significant thing to note.

    Also she is insane, y’know? Split soul and all. And now she got her soul back! Now she is a good girl.

    Good girl Sylvie will be quite upset about her actions. Amazing, isnt it?
    Cant wait for her to exchange hugs and eternal friendship with Tyrande, on top of assassinating the last 20 years of story by removing all her agency, even harder than it already was anyway. /s

    So you basically defending actions of someone who even the Almighty Plot deems shizo. Your soul is split too? Shame, shame. But it can be helped.
    For my part this whole thing spun off me saying that the Forsaken don't need Calia, because they still have the Desolate Council. Altho the Uther soulmerge did offer a semblance of hope that it won't be a complete disaster and we could still recognise the new Sylvanas, as the same character. (the missing part was literally called "courage", in the Vereesa shortstory i believe.) And given the context even Anduin said that that time she was in the right and the goodest boy is incapable of being wrong ;P
    Last edited by sighy; 2021-11-02 at 02:36 AM.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    The character is not important tho. His story is so short nobody would care if he is gone. I’d say the dog should be killed and that alliance spy Baine.
    Only if we also genocide a horde race and turn a few of your zones into ruins.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=sighy;53451315]To reiterate from the book. It's clearly stated that it's impossible to tell to what extent they're compromised and if they just got cold feet on last second. Not really a complex situation to unravel.



    Vereesa did betray and abandon her(and failed to prevent WoD by proxy). It wasn't malicious for Vereesa's part, but it is a significant thing to note.

    Also she is insane, y’know? Split soul and all. And now she got her soul back! Now she is a good girl.

    Good girl Sylvie will be quite upset about her actions. Amazing, isnt it?]/quote]
    Cant wait for her to exchange hugs and eternal friendship with Tyrande, on top of assassinating the last 20 years of story by removing all her agency, even harder than it already was anyway. /s



    For my part this whole thing spun off me saying that the Forsaken don't need Calia, because they still have the Desolate Council. Altho the Uther soulmerge did offer a semblance of hope that it won't be a complete disaster and we could still recognise the new Sylvanas, as the same character. (the missing part was literally called "courage", in the Vereesa shortstory i believe.) And given the context even Anduin said that that time she was in the right and the goodest boy is incapable of being wrong ;P
    You keep hoping , you keep hoping… In order to save her from consequences of her own actions they will polish that rotten shit to the crystal shine Calia will feel jealous of.

    Sylvanas wanting her sister and her children to die was just another pure psychosis move on her part.

    Also, Tyrande was worfed, character assassinated and fucked up so many times that it dosent even matter anymore.

    But for you? Oh the pure, unmolested, prideful Horde… for you the depths of despair shall gape so wide… All that genocidal hatred and froth… All that eagerness for war. For you, this “renewal” shall hurt more then any wound.

    If you think ANY Horde story, forsaken story, character assassination or dumbass plot was bad, just look at Alliance and specifically night elves and rejoice that you aint having THAT at least.

    You can tear your own eyes arguing but it will not change the sheer depth of doom Blizz kept casting the blue and gold faction into. And especially purple nocturnal elves for some reason.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I like the idea S'era raised her, & Sera was a Naaru who had fallen & become a Void Lord, then essentially "resurrected." In a way, the only "undead" Naaru. So the people she resurrected are undead. That's an interesting idea.

    Problem is that doesn't make Calia herself interesting. And certainly not a character Forsaken players are going to latch on to. The big thing forsaken players had was Sylvanas, who died a noble death & became undead, then reformed Lordaeron from complete annihilation into a real kingdom again. And even after her we had Liliana. The main problem being here is that Liliana & Sylvanas have both actually done things. Calia hasn't done anything substantial & suddenly she's exerting her royal claim to the throne. Shouldn't one of the many other Dark Rangers become the leader of the Forsaken? Some have even expressed feeling abandoned by Sylvanas & they've been fighting for the Forsaken for decades: Not some random royal who everyone thoughy was dead until very recently. My take on the Forsaken is that they didn't even really care about Royal bloodlines after the King's son killed everybody. It seems like the devs are made up of people who don't understand why Forsaken fans like the Forsaken.

    Plus, how is Calia supposed to asset herself against the Alliance? She might feel protective of the Forsaken but what happens when Turalyon wants to assert himself as a "son of Lordaeron" and declare "Lordaeron for the living"? Calia's New Boyfriend is Jaina's Brother. And suddenly they're supposed to be on opposite sides of a war? A truly thoughtless storyline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Alliance was literally formed to commit genocide against Trolls. It was surprising they picked a side based on racism because I thought Turalyon & Alleria were supposed to be good people. It makes sense now because blizzard finally found the right Alliance characters to be their next Warmongers.
    What's wrong with genocide against trolls? They're literally trolls.

    People repeat "racism" so often they forget what it means, if a race (or civilization if you want a real life link) undeniably and consistently does shit that is beyond the pale, then it would be evil not to extinguish them, real history has plenty of examples both recent and ancient.
    It's prejudice that's the bad thing, not the founded judgement, that's just justice.

    And mind you, this is about same-level groups fighting one anothet, not about a civilization turning on a part of itself like with the nazis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    We are not dogs. With that logic if Sylvanas stops attacking us then he is no longer our enemy?

    Or look at it this way.
    Is it logical that Tyrande begins to treat us well just because today we decided not to make a genocide with his people?



    Hasn't it happened already in Cata-Pandaria-Legion?
    What sort of nonsense is that? Her evil plans are still ongoing and dominant in this expansion, but if, say, Sargeras breaks lose and we can onky stand a chance against him with Sylvie's help? Then yes, we will have a truce.

    You assume far too much freedom in your choices here: If characters were to act as you describe they would have long since lost to the first best foe that drove a wedge between them, as what you advocate is literally "Continueing to fight while the house burns down around you.".
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    While Nathanos's view does only come in after the dark rangers begin to fire unless you think space and time and bendable the forsaken are already on there way back as anduin points. and yes the dark rangers depart before anduin point's that out exactly one sentence before infact so again unless time is bendable the forsaken were already on the way back.

    but lets just skip to using actual quotes from the book because that's faster then going though a back an forth of you being wrong.
    So right off the bat we have you showing that you can't stop yourself from lying even when you're about to immediately disprove yourself with your own quote. The dark rangers departed four sentences before Anduin remarked on some Forsaken returning. And what's lost in your dishonest editing where you jumbled it all together with no proper spacing is that it was two paragraphs before as well. With paragraphs serving a clear purpose of conveying separate points.

    Also, what does time not being bendable have to do with anything here? The fact of the matter is that there's nothing indicating that they had already been in the process of returning by the time of either of the relevant remarks. You're either lying some more or you simply don't know WTF the tenses used there are or how they work. And even that aside there is still nothing in the text whatsoever pointing out that they started the process of returning immediately after the horn rather than only after the departure of the Dark Rangers. That's not an issue of time not being bendable, that's an issue of basic English.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    as to me denying Calia knowledge lets just go ahead and quote what knowledge she actually had instead so we can skip your head canon.

    and that's it. no mention of the rest of the forsaken not even a hint pointing towards her having knowledge of what the none named forsaken were doing.

    ah but I her you say "all" means something along the lines of "everyone" so obviously something most point to every one but Elsie moving towards Stromgaurd it's probably just mentioned in a different passage!

    now of course you can say Calia is all knowing and when she said all she had knowledge that was denied or us mere outside viewers and the other characters in the setting, or you know just admit the book doesn't support your head cannon.
    Oh, wow. The book doesn't explicitly name the other Desolate Council members. Even though it hasn't named them at all throughout the book, because their identity was superfluous to the plot. The funny thing is that the bit you chose to highlight mentioned only Parqual and the Felstones in order to desperately try to portray them as the only defectors falls on it face so flatly that we know for a fact there were other defectors even among the few Desolate Council members that that the book did bother naming. Tomas Grey was one of the explicitly named defectors as well. It was just mentioned in another chapter and not in this particular scene, where he was just mentioned standing around. I guess when a given chapter doesn't spoon-feed you all of the information all at once you simply can't infer any further information, or even connect it to information from other parts of the book. And the part where Parqual was conspiring with two unnamed sisters moments before he approached Calia? Yup, simply impossible to discern what that may have been about. They remained unnamed even later on after all.

    But hey, that kinda explains things, because Calia saying that all of them were defecting also happened two perspective shifts later from what you quoted, so I guess you instantly lost track of things, including the part where some bit of time has passed between these two moments. Obviously Calia was incapable of seeing how things were progressing during the time she was not in the spotlight because she's apparently actually a reader and not a character in the story, even though she was explicitly referring to what she was seeing in that very dialogue with Elsie in the latter scene. Not to mention the part where she later recapped that she talked with everyone present earlier on to gauge their feelings, because obviously if you can't infer information, no one can. Never mind that even your own quote shows that at the time Calia had the Light on speed dial and it was busy feeding her information. Yup, there's absolutely no way for Calia to have known anything other than the few scenes in which she was, with her mind being transported to some limbo between them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    oh wait no the book doesn't support that at all and the only other mention is this which doesn't even slightly imply all of them infact it flat says several.
    It flat out says several in the very moment when Sylvanas realized something's wrong. With them trying to remain inconspicuous at the time in order to not draw attention, which included not going all at once. Also, you just showed you can't even pay any attention to what you're replying to, because at no point have I said that all of the Forsaken still on the field were defecting. I said all other than Elsie, with Elsie instead staying in place to argue with Calia. Meaning that Nathanos not saying that all were moving towards Stromgarde does absolutely squat to counter what I said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    sure you can assume any thing you want that doesn't make it any less unsupported head canon even more so when the book gives us Sylvanas's view on the matter with her "broken and bitter" bit.
    And like a broken record you're back to cherry-picking just one (the last one at that) of the reasons listed by Sylvanas there.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-11-02 at 10:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    What sort of nonsense is that? Her evil plans are still ongoing and dominant in this expansion, but if, say, Sargeras breaks lose and we can onky stand a chance against him with Sylvie's help? Then yes, we will have a truce.

    You assume far too much freedom in your choices here: If characters were to act as you describe they would have long since lost to the first best foe that drove a wedge between them, as what you advocate is literally "Continueing to fight while the house burns down around you.".
    And if they acted as you say there would be no war of factions or factions. Besides, many of the urination would not exist. You should never "recruit" anyone. This would have to automatically unite with you against the greater evil.
    Why do I have to do 3 whole sonas for the Zandalarias to unite but there is not a single mission to explain to me why I have to unite with my enemy?

    Apart from all that logic of "you have to fight because the case burns" never came up and that is the problem.

    Maybe if they had acted that way, we would have won many of the wars as well. In WoW we are always fighting with a handicap. There are always more heroes that could be fighting here but they are not.
    Without more we are in the land of the dead, fighting next to the loa of death and not only is there not the highest priestess of the loa of death, there is not even any other priest of Broswandi. We are fighting against the dead and one of the sides that knows the most about the subject is not really fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    "Continueing to fight while the house burns down around you.".
    So the Kaldorei have to team up against the bad guy on duty to kill the Horde?
    Not with this clear. But with the following.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I guess when a given chapter doesn't spoon-feed you all of the information all at once you simply can't infer any further information, or even connect it to information from other parts of the book.
    The absolute hypocrisy of you stating that inference is valid when you have routinely raged against doing so as producing head canon would be astounding if it weren't for the knowledge that there's no low to which you won't stoop to "win" arguments. Hell, I might just save this quote to produce the next time you wail about the evils of inference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    So the Kaldorei have to team up against the bad guy on duty to kill the Horde?
    Heh, two immediate thoughts come from reading this. First, don't give the writers any more ideas. Second, yes, teaming up to kill the Horde would make more sense than anything else we've seen since MoP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    People repeat "racism" so often they forget what it means, if a race (or civilization if you want a real life link) undeniably and consistently does shit that is beyond the pale, then it would be evil not to extinguish them, real history has plenty of examples both recent and ancient.
    It's prejudice that's the bad thing, not the founded judgement, that's just justice.
    Sadly, orcs and Forsaken have plot armor visible from space.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #429
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    So right off the bat we have you showing that you can't stop yourself from lying even when you're about to immediately disprove yourself with your own quote. The dark rangers departed four sentences before Anduin remarked on some Forsaken returning. And what's lost in your dishonest editing where you jumbled it all together with no proper spacing is that it was two paragraphs before as well. With paragraphs serving a clear purpose of conveying separate points.
    I didn’t edit a word this is a direct copy paste with not even a space added, you are free to find a digital copy and paste it your self if you think I’m dishonestly editing it.

    but sure I missed a period or two I can admit that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Also, what does time not being bendable have to do with anything here? The fact of the matter is that there's nothing indicating that they had already been in the process of returning by the time of either of the relevant remarks. You're either lying some more or you simply don't know WTF the tenses used there are or how they work. And even that aside there is still nothing in the text whatsoever pointing out that they started the process of returning immediately after the horn rather than only after the departure of the Dark Rangers. That's not an issue of time not being bendable, that's an issue of basic English.
    again unless space and time are bendable and the forsaken are teleporting they couldn’t be spread out like map markers in the insant anduin saw the bat riders depart then looked at the field.

    And I have to both agree and disagree it’s both a problem of you not understanding basic English and thinking space and time are bendable as you seem to think spread out and heading towards the wall out means no one was in motion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Oh, wow. The book doesn't explicitly name the other Desolate Council members. Even though it hasn't named them at all throughout the book, because their identity was superfluous to the plot. The funny thing is that the bit you chose to highlight mentioned only Parqual and the Felstones in order to desperately try to portray them as the only defectors falls on it face so flatly that we know for a fact there were other defectors even among the few Desolate Council members that that the book did bother naming. Tomas Grey was one of the explicitly named defectors as well. It was just mentioned in another chapter and not in this particular scene, where he was just mentioned standing around. I guess when a given chapter doesn't spoon-feed you all of the information all at once you simply can't infer any further information, or even connect it to information from other parts of the book. And the part where Parqual was conspiring with two unnamed sisters moments before he approached Calia? Yup, simply impossible to discern what that may have been about. They remained unnamed even later on after all.
    god you missing the point is pathetic and tiresome. I wasn’t listing off all defectors I was show casing what knowdledge calia had of the defectors, other being named in a different paragraph is Irrelevant to what info calia had which is solely what I linked. the two sisters also a are only mentioned in the book once in the passage I quouted, the book never says a peep about parqual talking to them just that they were part of the happy familys reunited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    But hey, that kinda explains things, because Calia saying that all of them were defecting also happened two perspective shifts later from what you quoted, so I guess you instantly lost track of things, including the part where some bit of time has passed between these two moments. Obviously Calia was incapable of seeing how things were progressing during the time she was not in the spotlight because she's apparently actually a reader and not a character in the story, even though she was explicitly referring to what she was seeing in that very dialogue with Elsie in the latter scene. Not to mention the part where she later recapped that she talked with everyone present earlier on to gauge their feelings, because obviously if you can't infer information, no one can. Never mind that even your own quote shows that at the time Calia had the Light on speed dial and it was busy feeding her information. Yup, there's absolutely no way for Calia to have known anything other than the few scenes in which she was, with her mind being transported to some limbo between them.
    just gonna skip to more quotes to skip you being wrong again. My earlier calia bit ends with this.
    She whirled toward Elsie, her hood falling off with her movement.
    “Elsie, there’s something you must know. And I pray to the Light that
    has sent me here this day that you will understand—and support it.”
    She swallowed hard. “Support…me.”
    before going right back to not but a moment later with.
    In the center of the field, Elsie stared at the queen of Lordaeron. “It’s
    not possible,” she said. But she knew it was true. Calia had taken care
    to keep her face hidden in the shadow of her hood. But now the hood
    was gone and she had turned to look directly at Elsie, and Elsie could
    not look away.

    “You are my people, and I want to help you,” Calia pleaded. “I only
    came to observe, to begin to get to know the Forsaken of Lordaeron.”
    “Undercity,” Elsie said. “We live in the Undercity.”
    “You didn’t once. You won’t have to live in the shadows anymore.
    Just—please. Come walk with me. Parqual, the Felstones, all the
    others—see them? They’re defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect
    you all; I know he will!”
    “But—the Dark Lady—”
    As if in response, the horn sounded three sharp blasts. Elsie turned
    her gray-green face back toward the wall and the Forsaken banner that
    had been unfurled.
    “I’m sorry, Your Majesty,” Elsie said. “I can’t betray my queen. Not
    even for you.” She turned and shouted, “Retreat! Retreat!”
    next to no time passes between the two moments she didn't get any extra info it's just her turning around from one conversation right into the other unless you really want to claim the light beamed the info into her that is.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-11-02 at 01:41 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Heh, two immediate thoughts come from reading this. First, don't give the writers any more ideas. Second, yes, teaming up to kill the Horde would make more sense than anything else we've seen since MoP.
    If they weren't mediocre writers they'd be a great idea.
    He imagines that at the beginning of the expansion the Kaldoeri ally with the bad guy on duty. And your goal as an alliance is to make urination in their sonas so that they return to the alliance. (In passing we can correct the issue that there is no official reason for the Kaldorei to be in the alliance)

  11. #431
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorzor View Post
    Make the next warmonger a Pandaren in a red shirt who likes honey and censorship. Have him park Pandaren-style tanks on the Serpent's Spine.
    tbf we already had that; the Tyr's Hand peasant massacre in the Second War is almost like a nod to Tiannanmen, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's censored within the Alliance
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Both nathanos's and Anduin's view make it pretty clear they there were forsaken returning Immediately. Anduin's says they were laid out like pins on the map some towards the horde side some towards alliance and Calia and Elsia in the middle before the firing starts. Nanthano's flatly says some where on there way back and was surprised they were shot.
    While I agree with you regarding Calia's knowledge (particularly since Calia has a vested interest in Elsie's defection and claiming that all others are doing something is a great way to pressure someone into doing that thing) and I agree that some were clearly heading back to the wall, the one issue I have with these accounts is actually Alonsos Faol's positioning. He is shown to be in the middle of the gathering at one point (p 252 of my Kindle version), and the next time we see him (p 260), he is at the wall trying to usher people through it before the arrows start to fall. It suggests that either 1) Faol is unusually fast compared to the other Forsaken on the field or 2) Faol was closer to the wall than all the people who were heading toward it. On page 270, Faol did manage to beat Anduin back to Stromgarde from his position next to Thoradin's Wall, so he could be the undead equivalent of the Flash, but 2 still seems, to me, the most likely. This puts all Forsaken on the field who did head back toward the wall further away from the wall than Faol was at the gathering site. There are plenty of explanations for this (if I were a Forsaken walking with my loved one, I would much rather not ferry them closer to the woman who has been talking about bolstering Forsaken numbers), it still supports the implication that they could be defecting. This is supported (but not confirmed) by the fact that Sylvanas observes everyone but Elsie taking a stroll with their loved ones, which led her to conclude they're defecting. If they were strolling closer to the wall, defection does not seem like a conclusion Sylvanas would reach, and it would be baffling as to how Faol beat them back to the wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The only Known traitors are the named one's in the group that approached Calia, I think one named guy in the following book, and Elsie for not going back right away. any claim that every one on the field was defecting or that Calia even knew who was and wasn't defecting is flatly not supported by the book and is pure head cannon.
    Tomas was a traitor in BtS but not one of the ones that approached Calia, and Wilmer (identified in Shadow's Rising) had a happy reunion but otherwise we know nothing of his actions on the field beyond the generalities applicable to all members of the Desolate Council still on the field at the time. No one can say definitively if everyone (but Elsie) was defecting--with some of them changing their minds--or if some never had plans to defect, and I imagine that ambiguity is by design. We do not know the motivations of everyone on the field. I am inclined to believe not all were defecting (given Elsie's loyalty, it is reasonable that at least one of the other six unknown individuals also felt loyal), but there appears to be enough cause for Sylvanas to doubt them. I would not want to live under Sylvanas' system of justice (particularly since the presence of a Menethil seems to evoke a rage equivalent to that seen at the Burning of Teldrassil or at the Mak'gora in front of the gates of Orgrimmar, where she acted rashly), and I am glad to see her previous characterization removed from the narrative, but as both leader of the Forsaken and Warchief of the Horde, her actions there feel well within her authority, regardless of whether they were moral or not.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    You keep hoping , you keep hoping… In order to save her from consequences of her own actions they will polish that rotten shit to the crystal shine Calia will feel jealous of.

    Sylvanas wanting her sister and her children to die was just another pure psychosis move on her part.

    Also, Tyrande was worfed, character assassinated and fucked up so many times that it dosent even matter anymore.

    But for you? Oh the pure, unmolested, prideful Horde… for you the depths of despair shall gape so wide… All that genocidal hatred and froth… All that eagerness for war. For you, this “renewal” shall hurt more then any wound.

    If you think ANY Horde story, forsaken story, character assassination or dumbass plot was bad, just look at Alliance and specifically night elves and rejoice that you aint having THAT at least.

    You can tear your own eyes arguing but it will not change the sheer depth of doom Blizz kept casting the blue and gold faction into. And especially purple nocturnal elves for some reason.
    I don't mind the factions having ups and downs so long as it means a good story comes out of it. They clearly used Uther to establish the kind of effect a soulmerge could have, where the character has to reconcile their deep rooted issues.

    In context of the story it was about Sylvanas and Vereesa rebuilding their family bond, with the underlying issue of the Forsaken probably not accepting her, as is if she were to move into Undercity, after poisoning Garrosh. Vereesa changed her mind and decided to cut ties with Sylvanas, which had a profound emotional effect on her. It never was a "Hehe I'm gonna murder my sister now!".



    I'm really not sure what Tyrande is supposed to be, in your mind? Her characterisation always has been atrocious, self contradicting, inconsistent mess, even as far back as WC3, where she was introduced so you can't say there isn't precident for her doing basically anything, because her history of conduct is about as coherent as the dude from Split.

    And tbh if you're looking to find flaws in the story you will always find them, if you try hard enough. Aliance generally is way more reliant on Deus Ex machinas and that shows in the merit of their run of the mill characters, when the deus ex machina doesn't come for some reason or the enemy is writtent o have a way of dealing with it, but ultimately i find that the writers can't seem to write Aliance into a conflict, without it being some dastardly infiltrator or something messing with things. Onyxia, Benedictus, impostor Shaw, Deathwing, etc. Now that all those characters have been removed and the Dark Irons have undergone Anduin's talk no jutsu there is nothing to work off that's not entirely external making them a dead weight to the story's overall quality.

  14. #434
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    While I agree with you regarding Calia's knowledge (particularly since Calia has a vested interest in Elsie's defection and claiming that all others are doing something is a great way to pressure someone into doing that thing) and I agree that some were clearly heading back to the wall, the one issue I have with these accounts is actually Alonsos Faol's positioning. He is shown to be in the middle of the gathering at one point (p 252 of my Kindle version), and the next time we see him (p 260), he is at the wall trying to usher people through it before the arrows start to fall. It suggests that either 1) Faol is unusually fast compared to the other Forsaken on the field or 2) Faol was closer to the wall than all the people who were heading toward it. On page 270, Faol did manage to beat Anduin back to Stromgarde from his position next to Thoradin's Wall, so he could be the undead equivalent of the Flash, but 2 still seems, to me, the most likely. This puts all Forsaken on the field who did head back toward the wall further away from the wall than Faol was at the gathering site. There are plenty of explanations for this (if I were a Forsaken walking with my loved one, I would much rather not ferry them closer to the woman who has been talking about bolstering Forsaken numbers), it still supports the implication that they could be defecting. This is supported (but not confirmed) by the fact that Sylvanas observes everyone but Elsie taking a stroll with their loved ones, which led her to conclude they're defecting. If they were strolling closer to the wall, defection does not seem like a conclusion Sylvanas would reach, and it would be baffling as to how Faol beat them back to the wall.
    from what I’m seeing Faol’s position is mentioned right at the start of the meeting and then not mentioned again until the arrows start to fly.

    Sylvanas says/thinks his name as does anduin and calia but no one says where he is so we can only speculate rather he stayed in the middle or went back earlier.

    That is of course unless I’m missing a mention which is very possible as I can’t word search on my phone and the PDF I’m using doesn’t have proper page numbers so I’m just skimming though.

    If I am missing a bit could you quote it so it would be easier for me to dig up?

    As to the strolling bit the only mention we get is Nathanos saying several and I’d argue if it was all but one moving that way several wouldn’t really fit but at that point we’re really arguing semantics and writing style.

    Tomas was a traitor in BtS but not one of the ones that approached Calia, and Wilmer (identified in Shadow's Rising) had a happy reunion but otherwise we know nothing of his actions on the field beyond the generalities applicable to all members of the Desolate Council still on the field at the time. No one can say definitively if everyone (but Elsie) was defecting--with some of them changing their minds--or if some never had plans to defect, and I imagine that ambiguity is by design. We do not know the motivations of everyone on the field. I am inclined to believe not all were defecting (given Elsie's loyalty, it is reasonable that at least one of the other six unknown individuals also felt loyal), but there appears to be enough cause for Sylvanas to doubt them. I would not want to live under Sylvanas' system of justice (particularly since the presence of a Menethil seems to evoke a rage equivalent to that seen at the Burning of Teldrassil or at the Mak'gora in front of the gates of Orgrimmar, where she acted rashly), and I am glad to see her previous characterization removed from the narrative, but as both leader of the Forsaken and Warchief of the Horde, her actions there feel well within her authority, regardless of whether they were moral or not.
    by the group that approached Calia I just mean all of the named forsaken -Elise as it’s portrayed that they were all together on it even if Calia doesn’t know who was actually part of the group other then the ones she saw.

    For Wilmer I won’t lie and say I remember exactly what was mentioned about him and I don’t feel like digging for a PDF or going through my audio book when I don’t know where the passage is so I just forfeit him as acting sketch.

    Other then that though my only position is that the book doesn’t support any definitive statements on rather the unnamed undead were defecting and any statement other wise is unsupported head canon, And also that atleast some of the forsaken were following sylvanas’s horn orders which is backed up by anduin saying they were already spread out and moving back towards the wall before arrows started to fly and Nathanos also thinking that they were coming back.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-11-02 at 05:18 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    What's wrong with genocide against trolls? They're literally trolls.

    People repeat "racism" so often they forget what it means, if a race (or civilization if you want a real life link) undeniably and consistently does shit that is beyond the pale, then it would be evil not to extinguish them, real history has plenty of examples both recent and ancient.
    It's prejudice that's the bad thing, not the founded judgement, that's just justice.
    Okay, so the Horde thinks the Alliance should be extinguished for attempting genocide against them & The Alliance thinks the Horde should be extinguished because they're icky & gross. Thanks for illustrating that so succinctly.

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay, so the Horde thinks the Alliance should be extinguished for attempting genocide against them & The Alliance thinks the Horde should be extinguished because they're icky & gross. Thanks for illustrating that so succinctly.
    Do show us the Alliance's Path of Glory, or the bloodthirsty campaign the Alliance led up an entire continent, or the towns the Alliance blew off the map with chemical weapons, or the civilians the Alliance kidnapped and tortured to create those weapons, or the city the Alliance vaporized with a nuke, the farmers the Alliance pinned alive to their own homes in front of their children, or the land of civilians the Alliance burned to death.

    You know, since the Horde never attempts genocide, no, they're "icky & gross". The Alliance is just racist, guiz, they have no legitimate grievances with the Horde choirboys.

    (waist deep sarcasm for anyone who somehow misses it)
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Do show us the Alliance's Path of Glory, or the bloodthirsty campaign the Alliance led up an entire continent, or the towns the Alliance blew off the map with chemical weapons, or the civilians the Alliance kidnapped and tortured to create those weapons, or the city the Alliance vaporized with a nuke, the farmers the Alliance pinned alive to their own homes in front of their children, or the land of civilians the Alliance burned to death.

    You know, since the Horde never attempts genocide, no, they're "icky & gross". The Alliance is just racist, guiz, they have no legitimate grievances with the Horde choirboys.

    (waist deep sarcasm for anyone who somehow misses it)
    How the community has fallen. Civilians with Free Will making a choice to go live with their loved ones named traitors by uneducated fanatics. Dark entities turned into misunderstood entities who want our own good by ignorants. A whole Azeroth being racist for daring to resist to a bloodthirsty fanboy army. No wonder this game sucks if it's left with that kind of community.

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay, so the Horde thinks the Alliance should be extinguished for attempting genocide against them & The Alliance thinks the Horde should be extinguished because they're icky & gross. Thanks for illustrating that so succinctly.
    1) The Alliance doesn't think that.

    2) The Alliance holds grudges against the Horde because the Horde has tried --and succeeded-- several times to exterminate them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Do show us the Alliance's Path of Glory, or the bloodthirsty campaign the Alliance led up an entire continent, or the towns the Alliance blew off the map with chemical weapons, or the civilians the Alliance kidnapped and tortured to create those weapons, or the city the Alliance vaporized with a nuke, the farmers the Alliance pinned alive to their own homes in front of their children, or the land of civilians the Alliance burned to death.

    You know, since the Horde never attempts genocide, no, they're "icky & gross". The Alliance is just racist, guiz, they have no legitimate grievances with the Horde choirboys.

    (waist deep sarcasm for anyone who somehow misses it)
    The Alliance clearly doesn't hate the Horde for all the atrocities they committed in the Cataclysm-MoP War or the Fourth War. Nope.

    The Alliance hates the Horde because they're ugly, obviously.

    And by the way couldn't you tell the Alliance clearly hates the Horde? Like that time Jaina decided to spare the Zandalari who were grieving their king when she could have defeated them completely. Or that time Anduin offered his help to the Horde revolutionaries to dethrone a tyrant who was destroying the Horde; forcing the Alliance once again to help the Horde fix their own mistakes. Yep, can't you tell the Alliance hates them with burning passion?

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    1) The Alliance doesn't think that.

    2) The Alliance holds grudges against the Horde because the Horde has tried --and succeeded-- several times to exterminate them.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The Alliance clearly doesn't hate the Horde for all the atrocities they committed in the Cataclysm-MoP War or the Fourth War. Nope.

    The Alliance hates the Horde because they're ugly, obviously.

    And by the way couldn't you tell the Alliance clearly hates the Horde? Like that time Jaina decided to spare the Zandalari who were grieving their king when she could have defeated them completely. Or that time Anduin offered his help to the Horde revolutionaries to dethrone a tyrant who was destroying the Horde; forcing the Alliance once again to help the Horde fix their own mistakes. Yep, can't you tell the Alliance hates them with burning passion?
    Or when the Alliance did not exterminate the Orcish Horde immediately back in WC2 but instead put them in camps as mercy. Or when Varian decided to give the Horde a 3rd chance instead of dismantling them. Or when Jaina did not drown the whole Horde while they were all parading huddled inside Orgrimmar with the Focusing Iris. If they hate them with that passion I can't imagine what they would do if the Alliance loved them instead. Even better imagine if they loved the Horde's appearance and beauty. I wonder what they would have done.
    Last edited by Darth-Piekus; 2021-11-02 at 10:52 PM.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Okay, so the Horde thinks the Alliance should be extinguished for attempting genocide against them & The Alliance thinks the Horde should be extinguished because they're icky & gross. Thanks for illustrating that so succinctly.
    ...No, the Horde is the successor to several purely genocide-aimed groups such as the demonic first horde, the scourge, the troll empires (i mean they were not just reprehensible, barbaric and vile, they were also quite genocidal themselves, in addition to being "Icky and gross").
    So rather it's one group of retaliating genociders versus a group of initial genociders who are now also retaliating genociders.

    It's genocide all the way really.
    Though make no mistake: The first and foremost genocidal factions were not of the alliance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    The absolute hypocrisy of you stating that inference is valid when you have routinely raged against doing so as producing head canon would be astounding if it weren't for the knowledge that there's no low to which you won't stoop to "win" arguments. Hell, I might just save this quote to produce the next time you wail about the evils of inference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Heh, two immediate thoughts come from reading this. First, don't give the writers any more ideas. Second, yes, teaming up to kill the Horde would make more sense than anything else we've seen since MoP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sadly, orcs and Forsaken have plot armor visible from space.
    I know right?
    I mean if we're talking genuine realism orcs, forsaken and likely even the trolls should have long been extinguished to the last man, woman and child.

    There's only so much demonic taint and shadows ruling over you excuses before you just accept that "people" like that can never not be a mortal threat deserving of lethal retaliation, it's just preferable to be pre-emptive at that point. I mean it's as stupid as people going "zombie lives matter!" in a zombie apocalypse movie.

    Edit: I should clarify i'm mostly joking about the trolls in this context, as i do not know them to be as "doomed" to fall to corruption and accompanying murderous tendencies as the orcs and the forsaken. Hell even the orcs can be argued to be redeemable despite having fallen to various blood curses again and again, but the forsaken cannot even procreate without evil so they're just out entirely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    And if they acted as you say there would be no war of factions or factions. Besides, many of the urination would not exist. You should never "recruit" anyone. This would have to automatically unite with you against the greater evil.
    Why do I have to do 3 whole sonas for the Zandalarias to unite but there is not a single mission to explain to me why I have to unite with my enemy?

    Apart from all that logic of "you have to fight because the case burns" never came up and that is the problem.

    Maybe if they had acted that way, we would have won many of the wars as well. In WoW we are always fighting with a handicap. There are always more heroes that could be fighting here but they are not.
    Without more we are in the land of the dead, fighting next to the loa of death and not only is there not the highest priestess of the loa of death, there is not even any other priest of Broswandi. We are fighting against the dead and one of the sides that knows the most about the subject is not really fighting.


    So the Kaldorei have to team up against the bad guy on duty to kill the Horde?
    Not with this clear. But with the following.
    If unorganised forces were any good, then yes recruitment would be unnecessary. Frankly if the land we're both living in starts to catch fire and you try to fight me as i fight the fire rather than focus on the fire, well, then i'm gonna focus on the fire in such a way that you burn first and then try to defeat the fire; i'd "cooperate" against the foremost threat regardless of what it is or with who it is. To do anything else would be suicidal and shortsighted, the idea that their good, evil or other other moral inclinations matter more than their actions in the present reality in the case of a crisis just illustrates that you don't understand what "crisis" means.

    Also no offense but your English is more than a little bit lacking, it's my second language too but writing it poorly makes you seem dumb, and i would like to be able to take you more seriously.

    In regards to the latter:
    During the burning of the Teldrassil it would have been entirely justified to team up with a random bad guy if that would have saved the day, yes.
    Alas there were none available in the area, apparantly.
    Last edited by loras; 2021-11-03 at 01:11 AM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

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