Brazilian congressional panel to recommend mass homicide charges against Bolsonaro

[tehdang]

Ah yes, the bullshit "people will die in a pandemic, therefore the people who fucked up the response are in absolutely no way to blame whatsoever for any of the deaths at all that they utterly failed to prevent."

I think I've gained my point by the speed at which "mass homicide charge for the President of Brazil for deaths in a pandemic" became "the people who fucked up the response are in absolutely no way to blame whatsoever."

[Leobald]

Sweden was only one example though, I believe Israel and a bunch of others approached the situation in the same fashion.

Israel had very strong lockdown measures in place for a long time. I mean there were even times when Israeli citizens were effectivelybanned not only from leaving the country, but even from returning.

[PhaelixWW]

This doesn't make it sound like they're merely doing this for political theater; rather, it sounds like they're serious about the charges.

NYTimes: Brazil Senate’s Pandemic Panel, in Last-Minute Shift, Softened Criminal Recommendations on Bolsonaro

Senators on the 11-member panel had second thoughts about the provability of homicide and genocide charges. Instead, they accused the president of “crimes against humanity.”

On Tuesday night, a Brazilian congressional panel was hours away from revealing on national television its recommendation that President Jair Bolsonaro should face homicide and genocide charges for his mishandling of the pandemic, which has killed 600,000 Brazilians. Then a few senators had second thoughts.

Even though they opposed Mr. Bolsonaro and felt he was effectively responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, these senators felt that the plans to recommend such charges were on shaky legal ground and might not hold up with prosecutors and judges, said four senators on the panel.

Suddenly the highly anticipated report — which still recommended other serious criminal charges against Mr. Bolsonaro — had lost support from what had been the seven-member majority of the panel’s 11 voting members.

The leaders of the panel, which had been investigating the government’s handling of the pandemic for six months, in an inquiry that riveted the country, called a late-night meeting at one senator’s apartment. For three and a half hours, they debated over duck and rice. Two senators argued that the crimes of homicide and genocide were so severe — and difficult to prove in court — that they could weaken the report’s prospects of carrying legal consequences for Mr. Bolsonaro.

Alessandro Vieira, one senator who was particularly passionate that the charges would sabotage their investigation, said in an interview that he dove into the technicalities of Brazilian law to explain why they should change the charges.

The report’s author, Senator Renan Calheiros, one of Brazil’s longest-serving senators and the former Senate president, eventually realized that he would have to remove the charges to ensure the report would pass the committee and head to Brazil’s attorney general for possible prosecution of the president. Instead, the report would charge Mr. Bolsonaro with “crimes against humanity,” among other crimes.

The last-minute shift, after some of the report’s details had already had leaked, reflects the polarized and complicated political landscape under Mr. Bolsonaro, whose popularity has plummeted since he took office in 2019 but who still retains enormous power, making his adversaries tread warily.

“The report has to be very strong, very devastating, but it has to be very solid legally,” Senator Humberto Costa, one of the senators who form the majority in the committee, told reporters in the Senate before a nationally televised hearing on the report on Wednesday. “What we can’t do is present a report that the first prosecutor who looks at it says is worthless.”

The senators were concerned that a homicide charge could require a prosecutor to name individual victims, he said, and that the genocide charge, which was based on the pandemic’s devastating impact on Brazil’s Indigenous groups, might not fit the standards set by the International Criminal Court.

The congressional report released on Wednesday accuses Mr. Bolsonaro of intentionally allowing the coronavirus to spread unchecked across Brazil in an attempt to achieve herd immunity and return Latin America’s largest country to normal life. The committee’s report blames the president’s policies for more than half of the 600,000 deaths from Covid-19 in Brazil, the second-highest total behind the United States, where more than 720,000 have died.

Mr. Bolsonaro’s office did not respond to a request for comment, but the report’s detractors have been vocal. The report “frames it as if he created the pandemic,” Marcos Rogério, one of the four voting senators on the panel who support the president, told reporters on Wednesday. “It’s a piece of fiction.”

Pedro Abramovay, a former national secretary of justice and the Latin America director for the philanthropic group Open Society Foundations, said that despite the late changes, the report was still bad news for Mr. Bolsonaro. “Again, we are talking about crimes against humanity.”

The panel’s majority includes senators from the left to the center of the political spectrum, and “they wanted to reach an agreement that would show the report was not just a manifesto from the opposition, but is a very solid legal document,” he said.

The changes on the eve of the report’s release left the seven-member majority of senators on the panel reacting defensively on Wednesday, arguing that they had not softened their stance and were not going easy on Mr. Bolsonaro.

“This does not represent any type of concession to Mr. Bolsonaro,” Mr. Costa said. The nine recommended charges against Mr. Bolsonaro would carry 50 to 150 years in prison, he said. “So whoever says that this report was light on Bolsonaro either didn’t read it or didn’t understand it.”

Senator Omar Aziz, the president of the panel, sent a New York Times reporter a political meme that said Mr. Bolsonaro could face 78 years in prison if convicted of the recommended charges. “You think that’s a little?”

Mr. Calheiros, the report’s author, told The Times on Monday that the seven senators who formed the panel’s majority had effectively agreed on the report he had prepared, which included the recommended homicide and genocide charges. The Times and several Brazilian news outlets reported on the panel’s plans to charge Mr. Bolsonaro with such crimes. Then some senators protested.

Mr. Calheiros read parts of the report in a hearing on Wednesday that was carried live on the nation’s news networks. At one point, he addressed the last-minute changes, and said that he had ultimately agreed with his colleagues’ concerns, which he described as “technical arguments.”

You know you're really the scum of the earth when the charges against you are lessened to "only" crimes against humanity.

[Cthulhu 2020]

They should, but it's a bit sad that this only ever seems to happen when there are political motivations, not motivations of justice.

Mismanagement is a feature in democracies, not a bug.

Just because a right wing politician spread misinformation that ended up killing a ton of people does not mean the right is being targeted for political reasons. It means he fucking spread misniformation that got people killed.

I don't get why you people have this persecution complex. On top of it, whenever a left winger does something bad you don't believe it's targeted politically.

I've said this numerous times, but please, never claim that the right is the side of law and order for as much as they enjoy breaking the law and getting away with it. At this point law and order means using the law as a flimsy excuse to beat black people and order the police to take paid vacation until the outrage calms down.

[Ursus]

More than 600,000 people have died of Covid-19 in Brazil, which has the second-highest death toll in the world after the United States.

The excerpts show the probe's report effectively blames the Bolsonaro administration's policies for more than half of those deaths, and calls for murder charges against the President.

So when are the mass homicide charges coming against Trump?

[tehdang]

This doesn't make it sound like they're merely doing this for political theater; rather, it sounds like they're serious about the charges.

NYTimes: Brazil Senate’s Pandemic Panel, in Last-Minute Shift, Softened Criminal Recommendations on Bolsonaro

Senators on the 11-member panel had second thoughts about the provability of homicide and genocide charges. Instead, they accused the president of “crimes against humanity.”


You know you're really the scum of the earth when the charges against you are lessened to "only" crimes against humanity.

Leaking a coming ridiculous accusation, an overtly political one as some recognized here, and then softening it to more of a political-rhetorical one after a single day is just bad politics.

Case in point, isn't he already accused of crimes against humanity for some rainforest-affiliated business by an international body?

But by all means, impeach the scumbag for his scandals and conduct during the pandemic. And "crimes against humanity" is at least the right direction from "mass homicide," from political joke costing them reputation into political process. No wonder he's still in power with all this flailing from his political enemies. Gimme the polls from wherever his base of support remains, to why he's still their choice, cuz its sounding like the other choices suck as politics.

[PhaelixWW]

Leaking a coming ridiculous accusation, an overtly political one as some recognized here, and then softening it to more of a political-rhetorical one after a single day is just bad politics.

Maybe because, as I said, it's not just a political ploy after all.

Case in point, isn't he already accused of crimes against humanity for some rainforest-affiliated business by an international body?

Because international sanctions have the same import as local charges.

Puh-leeze.

Gimme the polls from wherever his base of support remains, to why he's still their choice, cuz its sounding like the other choices suck as politics.

It's sad that you think it always has to be about politics. Then again, you condone the monstrous shit that Trump did, so I guess you're just being consistent.

[Lenonis]

information isn't always a necessity.

Well that sure explains your posting style of late.

[tehdang]

Maybe because, as I said, it's not just a political ploy after all.

Maybe I should call your post a crime against humanity, it’s actually such and not a rhetorical ploy.

Because international sanctions have the same import as local charges.

Crimes against humanity are often in the context of international bodies. I’m guessing you already know this. But maybe you’re very much more informed and can give me the list of times Brazil’s charged its citizens with “crimes against humanity” and the median punishments doled out for it. Local charges, indeed.

It's sad that you think it always has to be about politics. Then again, you condone the monstrous shit that Trump did, so I guess you're just being consistent.

It’s sad that you pretend to miss it for political reasons. The bulk of criticism is that of common political disagreement. If you don’t like how Trump handled coronavirus, vote him out.

I haven’t heard your perspective on a number of monstrous issues like pedophilia, genocide, mutilation, jailing of political opponents, and wearing of white after Labor Day, so I don’t exactly know which ones you condone. Maybe in the future I’ll have reasons to similarly accuse you of monstrous things, so for now I’ll chuckle at the “but Trump” cliche.

[Draco-Onis]

No wonder he's still in power with all this flailing from his political enemies. Gimme the polls from wherever his base of support remains, to why he's still their choice, cuz its sounding like the other choices suck as politics.

For god sake just google the guy and spend a few minutes reading about him and the things he has done, you are going to bat for Bolsonaro is proof positive you would defend anyone.

[Santti]

Well that sure explains your posting style of late.

"My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".

It's a classic.

[uuuhname]

For god sake just google the guy and spend a few minutes reading about him and the things he has done, you are going to bat for Bolsonaro is proof positive you would defend anyone.

defend anyone that has an agenda where the elite class continues to make all the money while the world burns and everyone else dies. the rich getting richer isn't politics, saying that it's at the expense of everyone else is.

[Elegiac]

Maybe I should call your post a crime against humanity, it’s actually such and not a rhetorical ploy.

Imagine simping so hard for despots your best comeback is "I know you are, but what am I".

Kinda cringe.

[PhaelixWW]

Maybe I should call your post a crime against humanity, it’s actually such and not a rhetorical ploy.

Ah, yes, the "No, you are!" approach. I guess you never evolved past 3rd grade comebacks.

Crimes against humanity are often in the context of international bodies. I’m guessing you already know this. But maybe you’re very much more informed and can give me the list of times Brazil’s charged its citizens with “crimes against humanity” and the median punishments doled out for it. Local charges, indeed.

The charge of "crimes against humanity" is one that is almost always made by one political body towards another simply because the scope of the crime is necessarily large, encompassing a sizeable portion of a region's civilian population. Government leaders are unlikely to charge themselves, for obvious reasons. But that's precisely why this is such a meaningful accusation by Brazil's own Senate. It's unusual nature only enhances its gravitas, it doesn't detract from it.

It’s sad that you pretend to miss it for political reasons.

It's sad that you can't distinguish between "not only for political reasons" and "not at all for political reasons".

If you don’t like how Trump handled coronavirus, vote him out.

Thanks, I did already.

But startlingly, this isn't about Trump. Bolsonaro's actions here were actually worse than Trump's. The politician who comes closest to Bolsonaro on this is DeSantis, and honestly, I would not be opposed to DeSantis being charged with crimes against humanity, either.

I haven’t heard your perspective on a number of monstrous issues like pedophilia, genocide, mutilation, jailing of political opponents, and wearing of white after Labor Day, so I don’t exactly know which ones you condone. Maybe in the future I’ll have reasons to similarly accuse you of monstrous things, so for now I’ll chuckle at the “but Trump” cliche.

You're welcome to attempt to hold my posting record against me. You don't get to so easily deflect your own, sorry.

[tehdang]

For god sake just google the guy and spend a few minutes reading about him and the things he has done, you are going to bat for Bolsonaro is proof positive you would defend anyone.

“Going to bat for bolsonaro” includes “his opponents are making clowns of themselves for switching mass homicides to crimes against humanity in a day, and simultaneously claiming this isn’t a political calculation.” I hope you buy quality rubber bands, because you’re stretching things incredibly far.

And secondly, certain human rights and democratic norms apply no matter how dastardly the act. I’ll demand Draco’s justify his corollary: Certain accusations justify abandoning all empathy, human rights, law, and decency discourse because you can’t possibly be seen to “defend anyone.” If he himself shot Bolsanaro on the street, and I said Bolsanaro didn’t deserve such meting of “justice”, I’m also guilty of defending such a man.

[PhaelixWW]

his opponents are making clowns of themselves for switching mass homicides to crimes against humanity in a day

Why, exactly, do you keep insisting that is in any way meaningful?

[Draco-Onis]

“Going to bat for bolsonaro” includes “his opponents are making clowns of themselves for switching mass homicides to crimes against humanity in a day, and simultaneously claiming this isn’t a political calculation.” I hope you buy quality rubber bands, because you’re stretching things incredibly far.

And secondly, certain human rights and democratic norms apply no matter how dastardly the act. I’ll demand Draco’s justify his corollary: Certain accusations justify abandoning all empathy, human rights, law, and decency discourse because you can’t possibly be seen to “defend anyone.” If he himself shot Bolsanaro on the street, and I said Bolsanaro didn’t deserve such meting of “justice”, I’m also guilty of defending such a man.

Look at the part of what you posted I quoted I can agree with you on the part of using his handling of the pandemic as a criminal charge is ludicrous but you went off the rails with the rest of his defense. Bolsonaro has done enough crime and corruption to be kicked out of office, if the country wasn't such a clusterfuck he would be. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what you are talking or the situation you are commenting on.

Heck your comment here solidify your cluelessness Boslonaro won his election BECAUSE HE GOT STABBED.

[tehdang]

Ah, yes, the "No, you are!" approach. I guess you never evolved past 3rd grade comebacks.

I'm getting tired of you yielding any distinctions whatsoever.

The charge of "crimes against humanity" is one that is almost always made by one political body towards another simply because the scope of the crime is necessarily large, encompassing a sizeable portion of a region's civilian population. Government leaders are unlikely to charge themselves, for obvious reasons. But that's precisely why this is such a meaningful accusation by Brazil's own Senate. It's unusual nature only enhances its gravitas, it doesn't detract from it.

The citations and reference to evidence overwhelms me. Remember, I made explicit reference to an international body using the term against Bolsonaro in regards to rainforest policy. I might be forced to accept that there's nothing opposing.

It's sad that you can't distinguish between "not only for political reasons" and "not at all for political reasons".

I'm glad you've changed your stance to acknowledge that political reasons entered into the charge and the changes. I can only hope you further acknowledge that it's the primary reason, or one of the primary reasons.

Thanks, I did already.

If only you adopted this consistent approach universally, I might actually give you plaudits.

But startlingly, this isn't about Trump. Bolsonaro's actions here were actually worse than Trump's. The politician who comes closest to Bolsonaro on this is DeSantis, and honestly, I would not be opposed to DeSantis being charged with crimes against humanity, either.

"Worse than Trump" as a rhetorical weapon just 9 months after January 6th. I should've placed wagers.

You're welcome to attempt to hold my posting record against me. You don't get to so easily deflect your own, sorry.

You accuse me without evidence, I accuse you without evidence. You haven't disavowed any of those, and I am satisfied.

- - - Updated - - -

Look at the part of what you posted I quoted I can agree with you on the part of using his handling of the pandemic as a criminal charge is ludicrous but you went off the rails with the rest of his defense. Bolsonaro has done enough crime and corruption to be kicked out of office, if the country wasn't such a clusterfuck he would be. It's pretty obvious you have no idea what you are talking or the situation you are commenting on.

Heck your comment here solidify your cluelessness Boslonaro won his election BECAUSE HE GOT STABBED.

I'm glad you agree with me that "using his handling of the pandemic as a criminal charge is ludicrous." Because, by the normal understanding of your logic, you are also "going to bat for Bolsonaro," and I'd like previous you to have an argument with future you.

Show me the poll that says "I voted for Bolsonaro because X position, Y position of the alternative, he got stabbed." Join the ranks of such luminaries as "Obama won because he was black, Clinton lost because she was a woman."

Why, exactly, do you keep insisting that is in any way meaningful?

Clearly, criminal charges are like waving licorice at someone. Change the flavor in a day and nobody cares.

Ooh, I'm dying to see your vision of a criminal justice system that changes the accusation day to day.

[Draco-Onis]

Show me the poll that says "I voted for Bolsonaro because X position, Y position of the alternative, he got stabbed." Join the ranks of such luminaries as "Obama won because he was black, Clinton lost because she was a woman."

If I need to explain it how that event led him to win it further proves you have no idea what happened in Brazil. Please look up a wikipedia page for at least the basics because frankly this is fucking embarrassing.

[PhaelixWW]

I'm getting tired of you yielding any distinctions whatsoever.

You getting tired of something or not has no impact on the truth.

The citations and reference to evidence overwhelms me. Remember, I made explicit reference to an international body using the term against Bolsonaro in regards to rainforest policy. I might be forced to accept that there's nothing opposing.

My comment addressed yours. Now you're just deflecting.

I'm glad you've changed your stance to acknowledge that political reasons entered into the charge and the changes.

Nothing has changed. You just apparently lack reading comprehension. My very first statement on this was:

This doesn't make it sound like they're merely doing this for political theater

...which doesn't preclude that there was a political aspect to it, just that it wasn't the only or primary reason.

And let's be clear here: even making some political theater of it wouldn't automatically invalidate the argument that the charges are valid.

If only you adopted this consistent approach universally, I might actually give you plaudits.

Words cannot begin to describe how little I care about your plaudits.

"Worse than Trump" as a rhetorical weapon just 9 months after January 6th. I should've placed wagers.

What does January 6th have to do with Trump's response to the coronavirus? Trump entirely deserves to be brought up on charges over the January 6th insurrection, but we're talking about leaders' responses to the pandemic right now. In that very specific context, Bolsonaro was objectively worse than Trump.

Clearly, criminal charges are like waving licorice at someone. Change the flavor in a day and nobody cares.

In a day? Where do you get this idea that "criminal charges were changed in a day"? Charges were never filed. One Senator wrote a draft report recommending charges. A larger group of Senators met and modified the draft report to change the recommendation. The report has yet to be presented and voted upon, so no charges have even yet been officially recommended to the AG.

And where do you get this idea that criminal charges never change? Prosecutors change criminal charges all the damn time. Swapping murder 1 for murder 2 doesn't mean that murder 1 was a somehow a "joke", and it doesn't mean that the criminal doesn't still deserve murder 1. It just means that the prosecution is more confident about obtaining a conviction for murder 2 in court.

Ooh, I'm dying to see your vision of a criminal justice system that changes the accusation day to day.

Are you even serious? Your knowledge of criminal justice systems is downright woeful.