I don't get it is Lordaeron now humanlands or undeadlands now?

[Feanoro]

@sighyThe Zandalari were completely ruined by BfA, and troll lore suffered greatly. Specifically, in MoP you could correctly say the hostiles were acting under Zul, a traitor in the making, rather than representing the Empire. BfA destroyed that and made them into nameless faction goons because "troll models without back problems". Troll fans often and rightly decry how trolls are mainly used as dungeon and raid fodder for any development, where the original Zandalari showed they could be more. A large part of what originally made Warcraft interesting was the willingness to break from cliches, like evil orcs and trolls.

Now, instead of a aloof race of wise trolls, we get more "rawr me Horde, me have grievance that will NEVER be addressed" crap.

[sighy]

@sighyThe Zandalari were completely ruined by BfA, and troll lore suffered greatly. Specifically, in MoP you could correctly say the hostiles were acting under Zul, a traitor in the making, rather than representing the Empire. BfA destroyed that and made them into nameless faction goons because "troll models without back problems". Troll fans often and rightly decry how trolls are mainly used as dungeon and raid fodder for any development, where the original Zandalari showed they could be more. A large part of what originally made Warcraft interesting was the willingness to break from cliches, like evil orcs and trolls.

Now, instead of a aloof race of wise trolls, we get more "rawr me Horde, me have grievance that will NEVER be addressed" crap.

Well Zul's actions were, in response to cataclysm hitting Zandalar very hard so there could have been some very interesting stuff and to be fair there still can be, but it would require Blizzard to do something they've not done, in a very long time outside Greymane. Allow characters to follow through on their grudges and show why Zandalar is atop all Troll kind.

This is one of my long time gripes with Blizzard's loéng term storytelling(interestingly only Greymane doesn'T suffer this mental illness). You have these perfectly good points of contention like Southshore, Northwatch invasion, Blackmoore fiasco, the whole Gilneas/Silverpine/Tiresfall mess, Arathi meeting, Broken Shore and so forth, as organic buildingblocks for conflict. Why the fuck do they discard all of that for "It's a-hole o'clock everybody HAIL SATAN, BECAUSE F*CK YOU!"

[Ersula]

This is one of my long time gripes with Blizzard's loéng term storytelling(interestingly only Greymane doesn'T suffer this mental illness).

Genn Blames Sylvanas for his son dying, & not his ridiculous plan of having his 15 gilnean civilians jumping the entire forsaken army instead of just retreating, so clearly dementia has taken ol' Greymane years ago.

I've accepted that Alliance players will never recognize "Alliance shooting cannonballs into a residential area, dropping pillars on fishermen, assassinating leaders" for no clear purpose during Battle of Dazar'alor, its treatment to non-horde factions who don't want to be in the alliance, or that death & undeath are categorically different things, might be problematic, or even that there might be political developments that are morally ambiguous.

Neither faction is morally good. The only problem is unlike the "evil horde" players, the players roleplaying as fascist, "Evil Alliance" characters don't realize it.

[Feanoro]

Genn Blames Sylvanas for his son dying, & not his ridiculous plan of having his 15 gilnean civilians jumping the entire forsaken army instead of just retreating, so clearly dementia has taken ol' Greymane years ago.

"My son's death is definitely not the fault of the undead invaders, they're just innocent bystanders who were forced to murder my son and people when they dared to oppose the invasion." Yeah, ok.

I've accepted that Alliance players will never recognize "Alliance shooting cannonballs into a residential area, dropping pillars on fishermen, assassinating leaders" for no clear purpose during Battle of Dazar'alor, its treatment to non-horde factions who don't want to be in the alliance, or that death & undeath are categorically different things, might be problematic, or even that there might be political developments that are morally ambiguous.

Have you accepted that Alliance players are told a completely different story, i.e. Blizzard effectively lies to both playerbases? Your complaint about death and undeath is pretty dated though.

Neither faction is morally good.

Correct. Alliance just has a LONG way to go to be as evil as the Horde is and has been.

The only problem is unlike the "evil horde" players, the players roleplaying as fascist, "Evil Alliance" characters don't realize it.

Ah yes, when in doubt, accuse the opponent of being fascist, a term that is so incredibly overused it has no meaning beyond "meanyhead I don't like". We have posters in this very forum who have clearly stated they prefer the WC1-2 Horde and enjoy playing the villains. Those posters are far more mature than the "Does enjoying villains make me a bad person?" types, since they understand this is fiction.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Genn Blames Sylvanas for his son dying, & not his ridiculous plan of having his 15 gilnean civilians jumping the entire forsaken army instead of just retreating, so clearly dementia has taken ol' Greymane years ago.

You must know that if a group of people invade your house and shoot your kids it doesn't become any less there fault even if you say tried to stop them with a bat right?

[Ersula]

You must know that if a group of people invade your house and shoot your kids it doesn't become any less there fault even if you say tried to stop them with a bat right?

It does if you convince your kids to bum rush the robbers.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It does if you convince your kids to bum rush the robbers.

No even then it isn’t any less the home invaders fault, you might have some guilt from making the wrong call but it isn’t any less the home invaders fault.

[Dellis0991]

They should let the Forsaken have that shithole back, there is nothing of value there for the Alliance anyway.

[Ersula]

"My son's death is definitely not the fault of the undead invaders, they're just innocent bystanders who were forced to murder my son and people when they dared to oppose the invasion." Yeah, ok.

You do understand why that's reductive, right? To the point of just lying about the situation? It's a war & the Gilnean army was already defeated: The Forsaken gave them all the time they needed to evacuate. The Gilneans pretended to evacuate, then Genn talked his friends & family with about 15 people to attack the entire forsaken army. They couldn't have written him dumber if they tried. At that point Sylvanas & any of the forsaken were just defending their own lives against an attacker. Genn is the one who committed a war crime in this situation, not Sylvanas.

Have you accepted that Alliance players are told a completely different story, i.e. Blizzard effectively lies to both playerbases?

Yes. For example the Alliance see the Blood elves using actual blood magic in BFA, something that is never referenced if you play horde. Or the Alliance don't see their first contact with the innocent Vulpera is to shoot them & set their dead bodies on fire. But is that an excuse? No.

Ah yes, when in doubt, accuse the opponent of being fascist, a term that is so incredibly overused it has no meaning beyond "meanyhead I don't like". We have posters in this very forum who have clearly stated they prefer the WC1-2 Horde and enjoy playing the villains. Those posters are far more mature than the "Does enjoying villains make me a bad person?" types, since they understand this is fiction.

Did the word 'fascist' strike a nerve with you? Because we both know the "The Horde doesn't deserve to live" people exist; the very definition of fascist.

- - - Updated - - -

No even then it isn’t any less the home invaders fault, you might have some guilt from making the wrong call but it isn’t any less the home invaders fault.

Okay, in your very specific analogy that doesn't exactly line up. Sure. But then the same applies to every civilian that died in the Battle for Lordaeron & the Battle for Dazaralor. Those are on the alliance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Okay, in your very specific analogy that doesn't exactly line up. Sure. But then the same applies to every civilian that died in the Battle for Lordaeron & the Battle for Dazaralor. Those are on the alliance.

the analogy is pretty much one to one. Sylvanas was literally invading there homes and genn made the wrong call which lead to his family being killed but that still doesn’t make sylvanas any less at fault.

And ya the same would apply to any deaths in the battle for Dazaralor including military deaths.

Lorderon not so much given that there were other circumstances then just invaders coming in for no good reason.

- - - Updated - - -

You do understand why that's reductive, right? To the point of just lying about the situation? It's a war & the Gilnean army was already defeated: The Forsaken gave them all the time they needed to evacuate. The Gilneans pretended to evacuate, then Genn talked his friends & family with about 15 people to attack the entire forsaken army. They couldn't have written him dumber if they tried. At that point Sylvanas & any of the forsaken were just defending their own lives against an attacker. Genn is the one who committed a war crime in this situation, not Sylvanas.

Using diverting tactics to defend your country come invaders isn’t a war crime or even a Morally wrong act in any way.

Though it might be stupid in this case.

[Feanoro]

@Ersula Thank you for letting me know you're firmly in the "Feed babies through woodchippers! But write it so that those babies were evil or a necessary sacrifice. Don't you dare call us evil." crowd. Resisting invaders makes you evil, I learn some new perversion of logic from Hordies all the time here. Otherwise, bravo on fantastic satire. Either way, thank you for letting me know not to take you seriously.

Yes. For example the Alliance see the Blood elves using actual blood magic in BFA, something that is never referenced if you play horde. Or the Alliance don't see their first contact with the innocent Vulpera is to shoot them & set their dead bodies on fire. But is that an excuse? No.

So... you blame the players despite being fully aware that Blizzard lies to both sides. Ok then.

Did the word 'fascist' strike a nerve with you? Because we both know the "The Horde doesn't deserve to live" people exist; the very definition of fascist.

Yes, applying real world political nonsense to people over a game is absurd and downplays the seriousness of issues. Also, that's not the definition. Discussing it further though is not only wildly off topic but I suspect would be completely pointless.

[Ersula]

the analogy is pretty much one to one. Sylvanas was literally invading there homes and genn made the wrong call which lead to his family being killed but that still doesn’t make sylvanas any less at fault.

The Castle Doctrine doesn't apply to war. It wouldn't even be murder, it would be manslaughter, because she was aiming for Genn & his son jumped in the way. & even then it was right after Genn threatened Sylvanas' life. Legally speaking Genn has no case. Especially with the pretense for the invasion being the Gilneans were doing a bad job quarantining a dangerous werewolf plague. Worgen were attacking Forsaken on their own lands, that's why the whole invasion happened.

And ya the same would apply to any deaths in the battle for Dazaralor including military deaths.

The raid opens with a cinematic of the Alliance dropping a pillar on some fishermen. Like I said, you're shooting cannonballs into a residential area: It's above & beyond just attacking their shipyard.

Lorderon not so much given that there were other circumstances then just invaders coming in for no good reason.

You seem to be operating under the ol' American logic of "when we invade people, it doesn't count." You're saying the Alliance had to attack Lordaeron in order to arrest Sylvanas? That's ridiculous. You're saying the lives of your own people are worth nothing compared to punitive justice. I would declare war on the Alliance based on those values. Like the US, you act like you don't understand why this behavior makes people hate you.

Using diverting tactics to defend your country come invaders isn’t a war crime or even a Morally wrong act in any way.

Conscripting civilians to fight for you & flying the flag of surrender in order to launch a sneak attack are both war crimes, both today & in medieval law

@Ersula Thank you for letting me know you're firmly in the "Feed babies through woodchippers! But write it so that those babies were evil or a necessary sacrifice. Don't you dare call us evil." crowd. Resisting invaders makes you evil, I learn some new perversion of logic from Hordies all the time here. Otherwise, bravo on fantastic satire. Either way, thank you for letting me know not to take you seriously.

I never said that, but I will repeat, what Genn did, falsely flying the flag of surrender in order to get a combat advantage is in fact, a war crime.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Legally speaking Genn has no case.

Literally none of our laws are relevant to a medieval setting.

As far as in Universe goes The forsaken are invading another kingdom for no reason other then conquest which every none orc culture sees as wrong putting any thing the forsaken do during said conquest in the wrong even by there own standers.

Worgen were attacking Forsaken on their own lands, that's why the whole invasion happened.

This is blatantly false, The Forsaken attack because garrosh wanted the horde to expand and wanted the forsaken to be whittled down inside because he didn't like them Sylvans didn't even want to do it but she had no choice because of how the horde works.

The Worgen in silverpine had nothing to do with the undead being there.

The raid opens with a cinematic of the Alliance dropping a pillar on some fishermen. Like I said, you're shooting cannonballs into a residential area: It's above & beyond just attacking their shipyard.

I already agreed with you that they are at fault for any and all deaths, I even said they were at fault for military deaths which you excluded.

You seem to be operating under the ol' American logic of "when we invade people, it doesn't count." You're saying the Alliance had to attack Lordaeron in order to arrest Sylvanas? That's ridiculous. You're saying the lives of your own people are worth nothing compared to punitive justice. I would declare war on the Alliance based on those values. Like the US, you act like you don't understand why this behavior makes people hate you.

America is not at all relevant to any thing here.

In universe what the horde did in dark shore puts them in the wrong and open to reprisal the horde say so them self's.

Conscripting civilians to fight for you & flying the flag of surrender in order to launch a sneak attack are both war crimes, both today & in medieval law

Conscription isn't a warcrime now a days and most defiantly wasn't one in medieval times, Nor did the wolfs ever fly the flag of surrender in order to launch a sneak attack retreating from a position and surrendering are not the same thing.

[LedZeppelin]

The planet belongs to the alliance so yes, it is human lands

[Ersula]

The planet belongs to the alliance so yes, it is human lands

Humans aren't even native to Azeroth *laughs in gurubashi*

[LedZeppelin]

Humans aren't even native to Azeroth *laughs in gurubashi*

wrong lol. humans were created by the titans

[Lorgar Aurelian]

wrong lol. humans were created by the titans

The titans aren't native to azeroth.

only cows trolls elfs and goblins are natives.

[Ersula]

wrong lol. humans were created by the titans

Trolls were already on Azeroth when the Titans showed up. You might say Azeroth is a Titan but that just means Trolls were also made by Titans and either way they still predate Humans.

Literally none of our laws are relevant to a medieval setting.

Then why do you keep comparing it to the Castle Doctrine? I'm just using your own reasoning against you. Otherwise I could just say "Alls fair in love & war"

This is blatantly false, The Forsaken attack because garrosh wanted the horde to expand and wanted the forsaken to be whittled down inside because he didn't like them Sylvans didn't even want to do it but she had no choice because of how the horde works. The Worgen in silverpine had nothing to do with the undead being there.

You're extrapolating your own interpretation far more than I am. Garrosh's only interaction with Sylvanas is the scold her for making more forsaken. While they do mention the Gilnean wall being piss-pour at supposedly keeping the worgen at bay.

In universe what the horde did in dark shore puts them in the wrong and open to reprisal the horde say so them self's.

Which would be an equal & fair response if they attacked a Horde military base. But they attacked a residential area. Hypothetically attacking Stormwind Harbor is a rational, military thing to do, but attacking any other parts of stormwind, the parts where people live, is not. But thats what they did by mowing down Brill to get to Sylvanas. You can say it makes sense "in this universe" only if this universe is blatantly misanthropic which I don't think it is.

Nor did the wolfs ever fly the flag of surrender in order to launch a sneak attack retreating from a position and surrendering are not the same thing.

Denial.

[Feanoro]

Which would be an equal & fair response if they attacked a Horde military base. But they attacked a residential area. Hypothetically attacking Stormwind Harbor is a rational, military thing to do, but attacking any other parts of stormwind, the parts where people live, is not. But thats what they did by mowing down Brill to get to Sylvanas.

Can't wait to hear your justification of Teldrassil in light of this statement.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Then why do you keep comparing it to the Castle Doctrine? I'm just using your own reasoning against you. Otherwise I could just say "Alls fair in love & war”

I never did, at no point did I mention legally in any way shape or form.

Blame isn’t a new thing that’s only legal or only under castle doctrine.

You're extrapolating your own interpretation far more than I am. Garrosh's only interaction with Sylvanas is the scold her for making more forsaken. While they do mention the Gilnean wall being piss-pour at supposedly keeping the worgen at bay.

I am not extrapolating any thing this is the actual lore.

the Forsaken started battering at the nation's gates in a bid to conquer Gilneas. Under orders from Garrosh Hellscream, now Warchief of the Horde, Sylvanas Windrunner was commanded to conquer the lands of Gilneas to secure resources[26] and its safe ports.

Due to the events at the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate, the Forsaken are "in the dog house" with the rest of the Horde and the Horde leadership. With the Horde now controlled by Warchief Garrosh Hellscream, Garrosh has ordered Sylvanas Windrunner to claim Gilneas so the Horde can have a port in southern Lordaeron.[2][3]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gilneas_(kingdom)

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Gilneas

The wrogen had literally nothing to do with the invasion.

Which would be an equal & fair response if they attacked a Horde military base. But they attacked a residential area. Hypothetically attacking Stormwind Harbor is a rational thing to do, but attacking any other parts of stormwind, the parts where people live, is not. But thats what they did by mowing down Brill to get to Sylvanas. You can say it makes sense "in this universe" only if this universe is blatantly misanthropic which I don't think it is.

lorderon is a horde military base al do the capitals are, an attack on stormwind wouldn’t stop at the harbour because storm winds military isn’t limited to the harbour.

As fo brill it would also be a military target because of the air ships that come in and out it’s the main supply line for lorderon.

Denial.

so can you actually show case them surrendering and then surprise attacking? All of the quests are easy to find and go through it shouldn’t be hard to do.

Or is it that you think retreating from a position and surrendering are the same thing?