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  1. #181
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I'm talking about the stock as a whole and how little has been removed.
    But that's meaningless. All those things being removed/changed might indeed be inconsequential when we look at the whole, but we're not talking about the whole. We're talking about something we see and use rather regularly.

    What you're doing is basically saying if your neighborhood ends up without power, it's okay because the whole rest of the city still has power. Or that it's fine if the city decides to demolish the public playground in your neighborhood, because there are other public playgrounds around the city.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  2. #182
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    On the main topic, I won't be surprised if next patch is the redemption of Sylvanas "throwing off the chains of her oppressors". We probably don't kill the jailor, but instead purify him and make him realize he was performing wrong-think. Next expansion is going to be "World of Peacecraft", with cross-faction becoming available after we both experienced what death was like together. BG's can turn into cross-faction co-ops such as a race to burn the flags, obviously symbols of hate and oppression. The end boss will be a giant orange man who wants to keep the factions separate.

    I almost want to say I'm joking, but at this point I wouldn't feel leery about betting real money on some or all of these ridiculous changes.

  3. #183
    Good on them, if so.

  4. #184
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    In The Classic / TBC days, Raids also weren't sprawling with unique enviroments and assets and those assets were re used to create more content, such as 5man dungeons.
    In TBC, Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls used all the same assets. Mana Tombs, Shadow Labyrinth and Shettek Halls used the same art assets. Mechanar, Botanica and Alcatraz all had the same assets.

    And the raids aren't exactly "sprawling unique environments", really. In MoP, Mogu'shan Palace (dungeon) uses the same assets as Mogu'Shan Vaults (raid). The Heart of Fear raid uses the same art assets found around the raid entrance. In Shadowlands, Castle Nathria uses many of the assets seen in Halls of Atonement and Sanguine Depths. Sanctum of Domination uses art assets from Torghast.

    Last but not least: remember the huge backlash Blizzard got over Cataclysm's Dragon Soul raid, as it was 99% used assets?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In TBC, Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace and Shattered Halls used all the same assets. Mana Tombs, Shadow Labyrinth and Shettek Halls used the same art assets. Mechanar, Botanica and Alcatraz all had the same assets.
    Thanks for pointing something out that i also pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Last but not least: remember the huge backlash Blizzard got over Cataclysm's Dragon Soul raid, as it was 99% used assets?
    Might make a more compelling argument if we disregard that the World revamp in Cata sucked up a lot of resources.

  6. #186
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    but we're not talking about the whole.
    We are explicitly talking about the whole, that's kinda what you sigh up for when you reply to some one else's saying a few things were removed from the game.

    If you want to make your own conversation about how 100% of things removed from the game were infact removed from the game then you can do that but it has no baring on my post.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Might make a more compelling argument if we disregard that the World revamp in Cata sucked up a lot of resources.
    That's irrelevant, though. Because if the "world revamp" really meant anything, then the backlash about Dragon Soul shouldn't be anywhere near as bad.

    Also, the Dragon Soul came out one whole year after the expansion's world revamp was done and over with. The "world revamp" didn't stop Blizzard from launching the Cataclysm expansion with three different raids (Blackwing Descent, Throne of Four Winds and Bastion of Twilight) with BoT being quite the unique raid instance different from the dungeons in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We are explicitly talking about the whole, that's kinda what you sigh up for when you reply to some one else's saying a few things were removed from the game.
    And I'm telling you that saying "it's small compared to the whole" is meaningless, because this "small part" is something the player base engages with, a lot.

    That's like saying removing a class (like the monk class) or a race (such as gnomes) from the game is not that big a thing "compared to the whole".

    The size doesn't matter. What matters is how much and how often players engage with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  8. #188
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And I'm telling you that saying "it's small compared to the whole" is meaningless,
    sure, I disagree.

    If you want to talk about how meaningful the things taken out are or how much use they get yada yada you can do so but it again has no baring on my post.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    sure, I disagree.

    If you want to talk about how meaningful the things taken out are or how much use they get yada yada you can do so but it again has no baring on my post.
    Just to cut in here. I do think it will have lasting knock in effects on what type of content is approved in the future. WoW over the years has become more and more cartoonish in theme over what used to be a rather grounded setting ( grounded for high fantasy) it is hard to pin point where exactly but around mid mop it started to feel more like a Saturday morning cartoon to me.

  10. #190
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmasters View Post
    Just to cut in here. I do think it will have lasting knock in effects on what type of content is approved in the future. WoW over the years has become more and more cartoonish in theme over what used to be a rather grounded setting ( grounded for high fantasy) it is hard to pin point where exactly but around mid mop it started to feel more like a Saturday morning cartoon to me.
    Id say the cartoonish theme's already jumped the shark with Cata Personally.

    but as far as effecting future writing and stuff and wow id say you could argue that were already seeing the effects with shadowlands which leads towards "eh its ok" to "why would they do this" bad.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    While this is true, the cost to this is a near complete removal of reason to run previous raids. The forums in BC were full of guilds recruiting for kara, or ssc/eye, or bt/sunwell, instead now every guild is recruiting for whatever the current patch content is. I attempted to run a Nathria pug for mog the other day, and most of the people the joined thought they were joining SoD because the basic thought process is that every post in current LFG is going to be SoD even if clearly labelled CN.
    BC: the expansion where if you didn't keep caught up you had a problem getting there and if you were a guild trying to progress through older content after new raids were out you were subject to poaching of your team by other guilds (and people left because...they wanted to be playing in current content and not feel like they were behind).

    That changed in Wrath pretty much (see: Uldaur and how many played through it) and in fact has nothing to do with LFR.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  12. #192
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    BC: the expansion where if you didn't keep caught up you had a problem getting there and if you were a guild trying to progress through older content after new raids were out you were subject to poaching of your team by other guilds (and people left because...they wanted to be playing in current content and not feel like they were behind).

    That changed in Wrath pretty much (see: Uldaur and how many played through it) and in fact has nothing to do with LFR.
    As someone who worked their way through Kara all the way to Sunwell because of that reason and made quite a few long-term friends along the way, yea, I kinda enjoyed working my way through raids instead of having the first few bosses of every raid be tutorial bosses so that everyone can see the content quickly. True, some people got left behind because they would rather play with friends who are bad at the game, but those who wanted to push for challenges were free to do so. A lot of things have a cost, and that includes playing the game the way you want to. If you want to push mythic now, you aren't going to be doing it in the casual guild struggling to clear normal.

    The exact same phenomena is happening, except now instead of some people doing karazhan while other guilds are clearing BT, now some guilds are clearing Normal at the same time other guilds are doing the same raid on mythic. It feels worse for the person starting on normal because as you progress you are just seeing the same bosses with slightly bigger numbers and maybe a new mechanic or two, and once you get used to the harder version, the easier versions feel lacking. Blizzard also has to spend more time tuning numbers and abilities for 4 different difficulties of each raid instead of putting their focus on making new raids or better fights.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    While this is true, the cost to this is a near complete removal of reason to run previous raids. The forums in BC were full of guilds recruiting for kara, or ssc/eye, or bt/sunwell, instead now every guild is recruiting for whatever the current patch content is. I attempted to run a Nathria pug for mog the other day, and most of the people the joined thought they were joining SoD because the basic thought process is that every post in current LFG is going to be SoD even if clearly labelled CN.

    I honestly don't see what's wrong with selling an adventure instead of a queue-machine where you spend all your time at max level joining queues for things. Too much of current blizzard design is clearly modeled after phone games, casual games, and lobbies. They've taken the biggest draws from the most popular games of the time and attempted to merge it into WoW. I've known this since I got into the Cata beta and there was a horde of beta testers in the forums complaining about how shit the changes were, and the official response from the bliz dev team at the time was "We know what is fun better than the players."
    That's not really an LFR problem, though. That stopped being a thing years before the final tier of Cata where they added LFR.

    BC is also a bad example because item balance was shit and you had things like Dragonspine Trophy which made running Gruul into the third raid tier viable. LFR solved the issue of raid participation being low, it didn't create a shortage of people running old raids.
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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Id say the cartoonish theme's already jumped the shark with Cata Personally.

    but as far as effecting future writing and stuff and wow id say you could argue that were already seeing the effects with shadowlands which leads towards "eh its ok" to "why would they do this" bad.
    Saying it's ok is kind of a stretch...there is a realistic chance this expansion will end without any clear idea of what the jailer was trying to even accomplish beyond being a blatant thanos rip off.

  15. #195
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmasters View Post
    Saying it's ok is kind of a stretch...there is a realistic chance this expansion will end without any clear idea of what the jailer was trying to even accomplish beyond being a blatant thanos rip off.
    Id say Ok on a micro scale. For example some things in revendreth are really cool and have some good writing. but on a macro scale the bad out weight the good by just a huge margin that the good is almost completely obscured.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That's irrelevant, though. Because if the "world revamp" really meant anything, then the backlash about Dragon Soul shouldn't be anywhere near as bad.
    Because every single player will just accept certain causation(s) and not complain regardless?
    Please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Also, the Dragon Soul came out one whole year after the expansion's world revamp was done and over with. The "world revamp" didn't stop Blizzard from launching the Cataclysm expansion with three different raids (Blackwing Descent, Throne of Four Winds and Bastion of Twilight) with BoT being quite the unique raid instance different from the dungeons in the game.
    Pre production is one hell of a bitch, the earliest raids obviously are being developed first, because those cannot be worked on post launch.

    Cata is pretty starved of new art post launch, you have Molten Front & Firelands (which heavily overlap) and the Well of Eternity dungeon, which was likely salvaged from the scrapped WotA raid, End time is mostly asset re use, as does Hour of Twilight and the ZA / ZG revamps obviously are also largely re using assets.

    Considering the team themselves talked about how they completely underestimated the effort of the world revamp, i'd argue that the (pre) production of the 4.3 raid had to take a backseat in favor of getting world revamp done.

    Let's not forget that especially artists move onto the next expansion extremely early, as the new continent has to be finished before even the Alpha begins, which is like over one year away before the actual launch, meaning the actual work has to start pretty early unless artist manage to crank out an entire continent within a few months.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-10-26 at 03:50 PM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    BC: the expansion where if you didn't keep caught up you had a problem getting there and if you were a guild trying to progress through older content after new raids were out you were subject to poaching of your team by other guilds (and people left because...they wanted to be playing in current content and not feel like they were behind).

    That changed in Wrath pretty much (see: Uldaur and how many played through it) and in fact has nothing to do with LFR.
    I mean nothing has changed in that regard. They just moved progression to mythic and the exact same system flourishes.

    I guess they hid it from normal and heroic players but absolutely nothing is different.

  18. #198
    If you think about it it makes them seem pretty incompetent. In the past you had women having to deal with Alex and what ever the fuck he was doing and people getting drunk or what ever and yet they still put out a good product. Now you have devs that are so traumatized and unable to work by a picture of a cartoon female or a character that has a devs name because a friend of a friend of a friend was harassed by that guy that you would think they are a Nam vet at a Vietnamese fireworks show.

  19. #199
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postmasters View Post
    I mean nothing has changed in that regard. They just moved progression to mythic and the exact same system flourishes.

    I guess they hid it from normal and heroic players but absolutely nothing is different.
    I suppose the major thing that’s different is that they’ve correctly read the community preference for not going back to previous expansion raids and provided more in the way of catch-up mechanics. There was a bit of that in the past but it has become a much larger and formal system.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  20. #200
    So the current dev team is vandalizing the game because they're mad at their bosses. Nice.
    This is why you can't allow these parasites to get a foothold in your hobby or your industry.

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