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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Serious answer that isn't just "they learned how to ruin the game."

    I'd have to assume per internal metrics that game design from Legion is built mainly around driving engagement with the ubiquitous "whales". They probably found that a certain group of players with a certain weakness to a specific gameplay loop like AP grinding are also more likely to spend money past subs. Likely the reason that alts seem to be getting unfriendlier is that the same group will spend equal time on most of their characters, regardless on how repetitive and poor the experience actually is.

    I also believe they are still attempting to break into esports more with MDI and thats driving M+ development and dungeon design.

    This is why crazy grinds such as AP which seems very "RPG" but goes against long running Blizz philosophy contradict their treatment of dungeons and class design which is pushed pretty far into action game and not very RPG anymore.

    This lack of focus from creating a healthy rpg and into what seems like separate game play loops meant to trap specific players, they aren't actually attempting to appeal to most players and it's creating a disjointed and jarring experience.
    Yeah the last two expansions stink of focus group testing and internal metrics driven design. You don't need to venture out very far to run into these "whales". People who are extremely addicted to the game and love the hamster wheel design of current WoW. It's a very sociopathic way of creating something. They could probably keep WoW running for a very long time by just catering to these people until they start dying off in a few decades after collecting their 3000th recolored mount or whatever. Which is why I am skeptical of the rumors/copes going around about how 10.0 will be "very very different".

  2. #242
    Brewmaster Pheraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    Well at the very least, they learned that randomized legendaries suck and made it so you can actually target the specific legendaries you want, some of which are returning legendaries from Legion. I'd say that's something of an improvement
    With the result to spend too much gold on the AH for something to go away in some months. As a casual alt nerd I just passed on legendaries this X-Pac.
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  3. #243
    Blizzard used to have this way of going to the extremes with things. If X feature/system was bad in a xpac, they went to the other extreme next xpac. Kept on going like this back and forth.

    If anything, these last few xpacs has proven they have found a formula that lets the maximize revenue with way less players. Back in the days, there was sub numbers that drove the game. More subs = more money. With token, mounts, pets++++ features in the shop (we should expect new store stuff) theres less need for alot of subs. Those that play also buy stuff on store.

    Blizzard is probably fine with most players playing in bursts(1-3 months) while having enough players inbetween whaling it up.

  4. #244
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    With the result to spend too much gold on the AH for something to go away in some months. As a casual alt nerd I just passed on legendaries this X-Pac.
    The massive gold sink and the need to run Boreghast over and over in order to get your leggies is probably the biggest factor that made me write SL off, together with the atrocious story.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azxza View Post
    Yeah the last two expansions stink of focus group testing and internal metrics driven design. You don't need to venture out very far to run into these "whales". People who are extremely addicted to the game and love the hamster wheel design of current WoW. It's a very sociopathic way of creating something. They could probably keep WoW running for a very long time by just catering to these people until they start dying off in a few decades after collecting their 3000th recolored mount or whatever. Which is why I am skeptical of the rumors/copes going around about how 10.0 will be "very very different".
    Well, it could be actually different - in the sense that SL is "very very different" from WoD
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The massive gold sink and the need to run Boreghast over and over in order to get your leggies is probably the biggest factor that made me write SL off, together with the atrocious story.
    While not that important I also still wonder why they didn't let you get the legendaries as transmog? Were they that desperate to recycle those as raid transmogs that despite legendaries having a different color scheme they opted out of it because they feared it would deincentivice the 9.1 raids ever so slightly?

    It would have at least been a bit of a side goal to craft the base versions for transmog..
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Don't forget about 9.0 SL, "alt-friendliest expansion ever" as the usual suspects used to parrot everywhere online. KEKW
    Yeah, that's been a barrel of laughs. Makes early legion seem like paradise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    Well at the very least, they learned that randomized legendaries suck and made it so you can actually target the specific legendaries you want, some of which are returning legendaries from Legion. I'd say that's something of an improvement
    And many of them that are returning legendaries from Legion or weapon abilities weren't very special back then, or were even then toned down versions of talents or tier abilities from WoD.

  7. #247
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because people give feedback doesn't make it right. The number of people who sit and claim "choreghast" and "amg we told you about this in the beta" are much smaller than it would seem.
    as far i know, player feedback about Torghast was overwhelming positive in SL beta, so no matter how hard ppl 'try', sorry i followed SL beta closely and the main complain about Torghast was reward not boring, they found it really fun
    however
    I also followed Legion beta closely, and everyone complained about AP, the difference was between ppl think it was bad to degree it was worst grind ever, blizz answer was wait live and research will 'make it better'
    and it went live as it was in beta, and player feedback was correct and in worst way, it was calculated that AP grind is literally the WORST grind in entire wow history even worse than Timbermaw Hold rep from classic

    tldr: Blizz doesn't listen to feedback, ppl didn't complain about Torghast during beta

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Blizzard used to have this way of going to the extremes with things. If X feature/system was bad in a xpac, they went to the other extreme next xpac. Kept on going like this back and forth.

    If anything, these last few xpacs has proven they have found a formula that lets the maximize revenue with way less players. Back in the days, there was sub numbers that drove the game. More subs = more money. With token, mounts, pets++++ features in the shop (we should expect new store stuff) theres less need for alot of subs. Those that play also buy stuff on store.

    Blizzard is probably fine with most players playing in bursts(1-3 months) while having enough players inbetween whaling it up.
    more subs not just money... it was everything
    in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online game, blizz seems to forgot the massive multiplayer part, there are more and more ppl say they play wow for solo content, and that line shouldn't even exist in a mmorpg! and sadly it is actually accurate, in fact i admit i find far more fun in solo old content than actually doing current raid (mostly because i despise the f8ck out of Sylvannas horrible story, and that comes from someone who used to be a huge fan of her, she is my highest hero in hots back before it was shelved in maintenance mode)
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    as far i know, player feedback about Torghast was overwhelming positive in SL beta, so no matter how hard ppl 'try', sorry i followed SL beta closely and the main complain about Torghast was reward not boring, they found it really fun
    The main beta complaint about Torghast was the timer that Blizzard had. When it was removed, that was a good reaction to player feedback. However, they also added the vendors, made doing it an essential part of the campaign questline, and made the legendary grind part of it as well. Then when nobody was doing the endless part in live (which isn't endless), they put something useful in as an incentive, rather than working out why it wasn't fun.

  9. #249
    Yes that's exactly right. Blizzard did listen to beta feedback on Torghast when they removed the timer. After that beta feedback was pretty positive.

    The problem with Torghast isn't that it isn't fun; it absolutely is, when you stack up those anima powers and feel incredibly powerful. The problem with Torghast is it was designed to be an endless endgame activity, a roguelike, where you kept going back in. But the fun didn't last after the first couple of weeks, and yet you had to keep going back to get that soul ash.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER online game, blizz seems to forgot the massive multiplayer part, there are more and more ppl say they play wow for solo content, and that line shouldn't even exist in a mmorpg!
    You say 'solo content' but mean 'unorganized content'.
    LFG and LFR is not solo, there other people in your group.
    I don't see how that contradicts the MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER definition. If anything it's even more MASSIV MULTIPLAYER because you play with much more different people then just your few same raid/mythic+ pals. Many raidguilds might not even exist on the server because you don't see them anywhere. How is playing with the same 19 people all the time MASSIV MULTIPLAYER?

  11. #251
    I hope they learn they can't please everybody all of the time. Just some people all of the time.

  12. #252
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    I hope they learn they can't please everybody all of the time. Just some people all of the time.
    True. Although it would be nice if they also explicitly stated who are those people they intend to please all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  13. #253
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    You say 'solo content' but mean 'unorganized content'.
    LFG and LFR is not solo, there other people in your group.
    I don't see how that contradicts the MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER definition. If anything it's even more MASSIV MULTIPLAYER because you play with much more different people then just your few same raid/mythic+ pals. Many raidguilds might not even exist on the server because you don't see them anywhere. How is playing with the same 19 people all the time MASSIV MULTIPLAYER?
    no i actually meant old world content, a lot of ppl focus on mount/pets/transmog farm, they just gave up on end-game whale-based boost community
    i tried to join raiding guild multiple times and failed, and i play as literally any role a paladin can do (if u even care to ask for dps)
    Last edited by sam86; 2021-11-04 at 11:53 AM.
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  14. #254
    Blizzard's problem is that while it learns, it takes way too long to actually implement whatever it learns. Then of course combined with new expansion features, they open fresh wounds elsewhere while patching the bruises of the past.

    Like 9.1.5 by all means a good example of lessons learned, but this should have happened like half a year ago.
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