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  1. #21
    One can argue, that in current situation not buying their games can cause even more damage, for example they can close Wow instead of fixing anything. For example, that preorder money is used to actually develop xpack and that no preorders = even worse quality of xpacks or no xpacks at all. Dunno. Their reports show, that they don't have any problems with money. If they have - then it's actually due to Activision and/or shareholders taking all money to themselves, instead of investing them into development of game itself. It's their problem. We don't pay our money for it to be simply put into Bobby's or shareholders' pockets. We pay money for game. They're busyness, not charity organization? We too. We don't want to pay money to somebody, who just wants to get money for free. It should be product first - money then. Not opposite. Not paying in advance for pig in a sack.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    there you are brutally wrong. Blizzard decides how much gold is coming into the game (obviously). and its tightly coupled to the token selling system, to make tokens much attractive as possible (because every token is free 7 bugs for blizz by doing nothing). thats why its called a „smart“ cash grab system. i programmed such systems. you have no clue how big the engine and the maths behind this is. blizz knows EXACTLY how much gold every item has to generate ingame, to make tokens most attractive and still effortable. its a integrated and combined system.

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    right. but let us think further here: the players that made that gold, invest HOW much time for HOW much gold? lets say X time for Y gold. when you should decide or foresee, how much ppl are willing to pay for a token and how much the token is worth of gold, wouldnt it be great to control X and Y ? think further…

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    would he buy a token for 20 bugs when he get lets say 10g for it ?
    would someone farm gold, when the token is worth 10 millions ?

    ppl should think about the word „smart“ in the term „smart cash grab systems“.

    real numbers doesnt matter. but Blizzard is EXACTLY controlling the attractiveness and usefulness of the token, by controlling the gold incoming amount, how much time its worth and so on. they completely control the relation between the invested time, the amount of gold and the gain with token. the numbers are defined by the market and free market rules. but the relations between them is defined by blizz.
    Blizzard obviously keep the token lucrative enough to sell & buy. Lucrative enough for buyers and sellers. They have found the sweet spot.

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer
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    On one hand, I hate that boosted rats get carried through shit and I hate the losers that whore themselves out to carry them. On the other hand, I have millions and millions of gold from doing nothing at all and if there was no token, I'd have to pay real money to play this shitty game. It's not a P2W issue since if I queue up against some scrub in good gear from his boost, I still crush him. If there's a monkey in my key doing shit damage, I don't notice since 15s are braindead easy shit and there's heaps of awful players, I can't tell if they bought a carry or not. I'm Alliance so I wouldn't trust a single person on my entire faction with pugging into a Mythic raid and again, in Heroic raids, you are doing trash content so can expect trash players, boosted or not.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    there you are brutally wrong. Blizzard decides how much gold is coming into the game (obviously). and its tightly coupled to the token selling system, to make tokens much attractive as possible (because every token is free 7 bugs for blizz by doing nothing). thats why its called a „smart“ cash grab system. i programmed such systems. you have no clue how big the engine and the maths behind this is. blizz knows EXACTLY how much gold every item has to generate ingame, to make tokens most attractive and still effortable. its a integrated and combined system.
    I don't see how I am wrong here. The relative attractiveness of buying token at 100k gold at an average income of 10k gold per timeframe is exactly the same as buying a token at 300k gold at an average income of 30k gold per timeframe.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    there you are brutally wrong. Blizzard decides how much gold is coming into the game (obviously). and its tightly coupled to the token selling system, to make tokens much attractive as possible (because every token is free 7 bugs for blizz by doing nothing). thats why its called a „smart“ cash grab system. i programmed such systems. you have no clue how big the engine and the maths behind this is. blizz knows EXACTLY how much gold every item has to generate ingame, to make tokens most attractive and still effortable. its a integrated and combined system.
    No, he is entirely correct. The "attractiveness" of tokens has nothing to do with how easy gold is to make in-game because the gold is traded between players, not generated by the game. If gold becomes harder to acquire in-game, the token price drops accordingly. If gold becomes easier to acquire in-game the price increases accordingly. What is important though is that the effort required to acquire that gold remains constant, regardless of what the actual amount of gold is.

    Gold sink items like mounts and pets do, however, increase the demand for tokens because it gives people a reason to want gold that they might not be willing to expend effort on acquiring in-game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    right. but let us think further here: the players that made that gold, invest HOW much time for HOW much gold? lets say X time for Y gold. when you should decide or foresee, how much ppl are willing to pay for a token and how much the token is worth of gold, wouldnt it be great to control X and Y ? think further…
    I am already thinking further than you clearly have, lol.

    There is a feedback element here that I don't think you're understanding. How much people are willing to pay (via token) for gold is not constant. If you mess with X and Y, this amount changes accordingly. Thus adjusting variables X and Y does not affect the attractiveness of tokens at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    would he buy a token for 20 bugs when he get lets say 10g for it ?
    think further...

    The token price is a function of supply and demand. For a token to be worth 10g would require that gold in game be significantly more difficult to acquire. For example, completing a calling would probably on reward ~ 6s for completion. So yes, people would still be willing be to part with 20 bucks for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    would someone farm gold, when the token is worth 10 millions ?
    again, think further...

    The token price is a function of supply and demand. For a token to be worth 10M gold would require that gold in game be significantly easier to acquire. For example, completing a calling would probably on reward ~ 50 000g for completion. So yes, people would still be willing 10M gold to buy one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    real numbers doesnt matter. but Blizzard is EXACTLY controlling the attractiveness and usefulness of the token, by controlling the gold incoming amount, how much time its worth and so on. they completely control the relation between the invested time, the amount of gold and the gain with token. the numbers are defined by the market and free market rules. but the relations between them is defined by blizz.
    No they are not. That is not how the token works. I think you are allowing your personal issues with Blizzard (which, based on your post history, are numerous) to cloud your thinking on this issues.

    What you describe would be true if Blizzard was selling gold directly to players. The token system allows players to effectively trade with each other, gold for monetary value.


    Blizzard may be able to completely control the token price (both in $ and in gold) but they have a very limited ability to affect its attractiveness and usefulness.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2021-10-28 at 09:58 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    I don't see how I am wrong here. The relative attractiveness of buying token at 100k gold at an average income of 10k gold per timeframe is exactly the same as buying a token at 300k gold at an average income of 30k gold per timeframe.
    I guess, it's about gap between casual player, who "just plays the game", and more hardcore player, who purposely farms gold. Let's say, token costs 300k gold. Casual player can earn 2k/day via doing callings. He would need 150 days do to it. It doesn't fit into 30 days timeframe. So, he would need to do it on 5 characters on day by day basis, that would take 5x time. Can you still call him "casual" in this case?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Blizzard obviously keep the token lucrative enough to sell & buy. Lucrative enough for buyers and sellers. They have found the sweet spot.
    No, the market forces of supply and demand cause it to move to that "sweet spot". Blizzard have very little to do with it other than making sure that:

    1) There is stuff worth spending gold on in-game to give people an incentive to spend $$ on tokens
    2) There is stuff to spend Blizzard balance on in the shop to give people an incentive to spend gold on tokens

    The sweet spot you refer to exists because of the variation between players in terms of their ability and willingness to make gold in-game

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Problem is - this cycle is caused by players themselves and can be stopped by players only. Players buy games no matter what, that causes "why bother, if they pay anyway" attitude. Rules are simple. Don't pre-order. Don't buy xpack, if you don't like it. Don't buy at day one. Wait for honeymoon period to end, i.e. for unbiased reviews. Unsub, if you don't like content. Stay unsubbed, till problems aren't fixed. Don't be tricked into greed promotions, such as mounts for semi-annual passes. If you buy 6 months sub for mount, but don't play game - YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.
    I haven't played the game in over 6 months and they haven't fixed SHIT. I guess that makes your pontification a bit moot.

    The players are NOT the problem. They may be continuing to pay Blizz, but the shit design is on the Devs. Even if they go bankrupt, they are NOT going to change their design philosophy. The stubborn, frat boy, they know better bull shit is the problem. Me withholding money hasn't changed a damn thing.

    Got any more great ideas I should try that I didn't already try 6 months ago?

  9. #29
    Scarab Lord Motorman's Avatar
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    If you could farm gold you wouldn't need to buy it. Plus theres still those of us with millions stacked up since the WoD bonanza and they hate our existence I mean if they could find a way to erase our gold they would.

    Personally I even bought the expansions with converted gold and I now only use it to pay for sub everything else I craft I never drop a penny in the market.

    Truth be told though, they ruined raw gold making because:

    1. They wanted to kill bots (they failed)
    2. They wanted players to buy gold from them (that went 50/50)

    In return, the sale of gold made boosting for gold (aka for real money but they pretend its not real money trade lol) ok.

    So now we have a pay to win system whereas players simply go to the bank (AH) and exchange currency (Euro/USD/Rubles/whatever) to the country's exchange rate (WoW world).

    Not sure why people still pretend wow isnt pay to win but it is and it dictates how the game moves forward.

    1. Uninteresting world so you end up in the pay 2 win content of the game.
    2. Alt unfriendly so you focus on main toon and end up in the pay 2 win content of the game.
    3. Not many ways to farm gold so you again end up playing the stock market (aka a blizzard controlled market)
    4. Endless seasonal patches that drain your stored gold or make you pay to hold on to your account while waiting for things to change.

    The only answer to this shit is cancel sub until they offer something worth playing. 9.1.5 good for a month? pay the month and drop it. Don't stand there 6-7 more months hoping shit will change because it never does.
    "So yes, I'm fine with killing murloc babies" (Quote, MMOC 2021)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, the market forces of supply and demand cause it to move to that "sweet spot". Blizzard have very little to do with it other than making sure that:

    1) There is stuff worth spending gold on in-game to give people an incentive to spend $$ on tokens
    2) There is stuff to spend Blizzard balance on in the shop to give people an incentive to spend gold on tokens

    The sweet spot you refer to exists because of the variation between players in terms of their ability and willingness to make gold in-game
    yeah, and? Doesnt change the fact that the person who made this thread can just delete this thread and go and buy a token to get gold. Theres no need to complain about that he thinks its hard to get gold, cause it isnt. Easiest way is to buy it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I guess, it's about gap between casual player, who "just plays the game", and more hardcore player, who purposely farms gold. Let's say, token costs 300k gold. Casual player can earn 2k/day via doing callings. He would need 150 days do to it. It doesn't fit into 30 days timeframe. So, he would need to do it on 5 characters on day by day basis, that would take 5x time. Can you still call him "casual" in this case?
    But "average" already includes both groups, and the amount of gold you make is and was always tied to the amount of time you spend on gaining gold.
    Spending just enough time doing nothing but completing your daily on one char never paid enough to afford the token. If it would, then naturally someone who is just doing to with two chars (that's still far from "hardcore" playing) would be able to afford two tokens, and in that case the price of the token would quickly shift.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    SL is the best gold making expansion since WoD.
    If you boosting, botting or playing the AH sure. I doubt the casual material farmer is making a lot of money but it'd be happy to be proven wrong.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    They deliberately make it so making gold is super difficult and that’s why the anti alt design and non-gold rewards, gated, temp throw away systems grinding design. The entire world but the latest patch is made irrelevant and extremely unrewarding. Also, by developing two expansions at a time, they risk both failing. It seems like blizzard WoW devs are permanently stuck in this cycle of failure.
    You are joking right? Gold making feels easier than it's ever been, except for maybe garrisons in WoD. I've made a couple million gold just from callings/paragons.

  14. #34
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaith View Post
    If you boosting, botting or playing the AH sure. I doubt the casual material farmer is making a lot of money but it'd be happy to be proven wrong.
    I did make a ridiculous, disgustingly ridiculous amount of money off of legendary AH sales; that's not unusual though. Expansion to expansion there is always something I make a ridiculous amount of money off of via the AH.

    However, the passive money my Night Fae characters are making off the mission table is absolutely fucking crazy. That's where my comment about "SL being the best gold making expansion since WoD" came from. All three of my alt druids are raking it in.

    I don't bot or boost. I also don't play the AH flipping game.

    Edit:
    I do sell the mats I get from the mission tables and from the Night Fae garden. Leather and ore are still selling at a good price, and quickly, on my server.
    Last edited by callipygoustp; 2021-10-28 at 10:49 AM.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwijello View Post
    I haven't played the game in over 6 months and they haven't fixed SHIT. I guess that makes your pontification a bit moot.

    The players are NOT the problem. They may be continuing to pay Blizz, but the shit design is on the Devs. Even if they go bankrupt, they are NOT going to change their design philosophy. The stubborn, frat boy, they know better bull shit is the problem. Me withholding money hasn't changed a damn thing.

    Got any more great ideas I should try that I didn't already try 6 months ago?
    World doesn't revolve around you. If enough players still play, Blizzard will continue doing it. For example, I guess, many players have bought D2 remaster, while it isn't worth it's price. I don't buy purely marketing-driven overpriced products from Apple. But they still sell them. Why? Because enough number of people buy them.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaith View Post
    If you boosting, botting or playing the AH sure. I doubt the casual material farmer is making a lot of money but it'd be happy to be proven wrong.
    Im not boosting or botting and sure i sell stuff on AH when i find or gather something i dont need myself but wouldnt say im playing AH, never bought gold and still have managed to buy all the expensive gold wasting mounts just by playing the game and never buying something from AH i can gather farm or create on my Main or Alt.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Not sure why people still pretend wow isnt pay to win but it is and it dictates how the game moves forward.
    It's not a pretense. It's an informed opinion based on a valid understanding of what "pay to win" means.

    For some reason a lot of people on these forums have no understanding of the term or where it comes from and instead think it's just a matter of how you interpret it based on the English definition of the three words. It's not.

    "Pay to Win" has an established meaning within gaming circles. It refers to a system in which the player pays extra money for the game to provide a necessary advantage that cannot reasonably be acquired by simply playing the game. In effect players who want to play the game competitively are left with no real choice but to pay for those advantages.

    In WoW you aren't paying for the game to give you an advantage. You are paying other players to help you. Furthermore, there is zero necessity to pay in order to be competitive, and if you look at what actually happens in the game, those who are competitive are not those paying extra money (if anything, it's competitive players who spend their gold to buy tokens)

  18. #38
    It's the same as the cycle of hatred mentioned a gazillion times ingame. It will never end

  19. #39
    The market in wow is fucked up since forever...
    You cannot even make reliably money with gathering professions anymore.
    Take herbalism. It is cheaper to buy the finished product, than to buy the herbs. Even with procs counted in.

    Making money in wow is easy. And honestly you don't even need much of it most of the time unless you want to buy BoEs.

    The token is the token. I am not ashamed to say when i play retail i bought one every few months. Just because even the time i need to farm the gold is not worth the few euros every few months. Famring gold is not fun for me. I hate it to be honest. I rather play other games. But i love raiding. So i take that solution. Otherwise i don't think i would play anymore. To much time in one game doing basically nothing for hours just to fun raiding... no thank you.

    For anti alt stuf... i don't think Wow is anto alt currently. Gear is abundant everywhere again since the bumbed up the drops. Not even funny. Worth nothing at all. You just get thrown epics in your face left and right and after 2 weeks no one needs anything again from the first few bosses in a raid.... same with alts. Everything is to fast. Getting renown on alts is... the easiest shit ever. You can get if for nearly everything. Running a few thorgasts doesn't take much, too.

  20. #40
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    "WoW is Dying/Dead" type threads don't tend to produce much in the way of constructive discussion or debate. Closing this.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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