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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    The issue with ten man raiding comes down to two key factors. You can't scale a boss to have both a small group and large group competitively ten will almost always be easier simply due to the increased space they have per person.
    While there's more space, there's also far less redundancy, and any mechanic that puts a players out of position or out of their normal function (DPS, etc.) has that much more impact on the raid's overall performance. That's why some fights in the past have been harder on 10-man than on 25-man. Heck, it's normal for fights these days on normal and heroic to be easier with 15+ players than with 10 for this reason.

  2. #22
    why does any post containing final fantasy always turn into a game vs game pissfest?

  3. #23
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread isn't about FFXIV vs. WoW, it's about the focus of 10-person raiding. Let's get back on track and not derail the thread into versus bickering.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    While there's more space, there's also far less redundancy, and any mechanic that puts a players out of position or out of their normal function (DPS, etc.) has that much more impact on the raid's overall performance. That's why some fights in the past have been harder on 10-man than on 25-man. Heck, it's normal for fights these days on normal and heroic to be easier with 15+ players than with 10 for this reason.
    In Heroic around 15 seems to be the magic number, around 10 players the fight is long and drawn out. If you go to the other end of around 22+ people then it just becomes a giant cluster fuck.

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    Back on the subject it will never happen where Blizzard drops the size down. We see how bad raids are designed for certain classes and we see how awful Blizzard balances classes. So this would basically become nothing more then an MDI clone where 99% of the comps are the same couple specs. Blizzard would pretty much have to homogenize the classes in order for it to work and I dont see them being able to execute something like this..

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    Large raids are the one nice thing Blizzard has left in WoW. 10 man raids don’t feel epic. Shit I even miss 40 man raids. After playing Classic I was reminded just how amazing it felt to raid with a full 40 man raid team. It was epic as hell. 10 man is like a dungeon and kinda sad.
    Times change, the hill you walked up both ways to school is redundant. You have classic to fill your void for "epic" raids. 10 man heck even 15 man raids would probably help a lot of guilds in WoW to be able to push into more content.

  6. #26

    Exclamation

    You don't specifically need to compare it to FF to realize whether 10m would be nice, because we used to have it. For a long time. Throwing in FF just makes this whole thread degenerate into wow vs ff.

    That being said, i think removing 10m was a mistake. 20m roster is harder to keep alive. Smaller guilds who used to do mid difficulty fast and go then do some highest difficulty bosses just won't. They'll kill end boss hc and be done. They basically alienated a lot of the playerbase for a design philosophy. And i get it, i get it's easier to have one fixed size and design so there aren't so many arguments about raid sides. But i also think this isn't the best solution.
    I think removing end game raid for smaller raid sizes effectively killed it for a lot of players. And created a lot of issues in regards to gearing, how useful raid gear is, if you need to go to other sources for raid gear etc. I think it is also one of the main issues why m+ is so much more popular and has better rewards. M+ in turn makes it that hc bosses are overtuned for hc gear, based on the assumption that ppl will do M+ alongside raiding.
    Last edited by Loveliest; 2021-10-28 at 04:14 PM.

  7. #27
    Let me ask you OP, where do you think this thread will go? Have you not seen he 20 other threads that mentioned other games and what they were closed for?
    I do agree though, fuck large scale raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    It is not that hard overall. Just need to learn the choregraphy by heart.
    Instead of becomming the actuator for your bossmod autopilot.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  8. #28
    Why did 10 man raiding really go away? Because WOW players wouldn't shut up about which was the true top tier raiding size so Blizzard ended up making mythic 20 man to create a final answer.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by glowpipe View Post
    why does any post containing final fantasy always turn into a game vs game pissfest?
    Do you honestly need an answer for that? People are insecure about their game of choice and try to defend that choice at all costs.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  10. #30
    Warchief Beet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaqfu View Post
    Times change, the hill you walked up both ways to school is redundant. You have classic to fill your void for "epic" raids. 10 man heck even 15 man raids would probably help a lot of guilds in WoW to be able to push into more content.
    Yup well thankfully Blizzard agrees with me that larger raids feel more impactful and that’s why Mythic is the size it is

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Major difference. FF doesnt let you use addons. WoW have harder bosses only becouse you have way more information during fight thanks to addons. So even ff bosses are easyer lack of addons and iformation puts them on same level difficulty as wow bosses.
    Also, FFXIV is cross-platformed with PS4/PS5. Maybe they could reduce mythic-raid size to 15.

  12. #32
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    You can have ten man if you accept the simplicity of XIV bosses and classes that allow for smaller raids.
    The problem isn't the number of players. The problem is FF's engine isn't as responsive as WoW's. In WoW, you can have fancy elaborate mechanics like passing Iskar's eyeball around or hopping into Socrethar's mech, but FF's netcode has a time delay and there is generally just too much jank that makes such gameplay sluggish and feels bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, they are. They are better designed but overall simpler to use.
    Eh, I'm not a fan of how most of the classes in FF14 play. There is a lot of button bloat and your individual buttons might have flashy animations, but they hit like wet noodles. I don't feel powerful in FF14 like I do in WoW.

    The main thing that separates FF14's class design from WoW's is that there are no talent trees or azerite powers legendaries that augment your abilities. What you see in your spellbook is what you get. It's way easier to learn a new class in FFXIV and to keep up playing one because you don't have to keep track of all of the builds and build changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    The only good designed jobs are the dps ones, healers and tanks are basically dps that sometimes heal and tank. There's a reason the majority of class complaints come from healers and tanks simply because of that and even the game director openly admits that he doesn't like designing healers and tanks.
    WoW tanks were the best when they had active mitigation rotation (ie, a paladin or a warrior spending holy power or rage to raise his shield for 3 seconds to defend from a tankbuster). That felt good. But otherwise tanks feel bad to play because they hit like a wet noodle. At least in FFXIV, tanks only deal marginally less damage than DPS, but again hitting like a wet noodle is sorta the norm in FFXIV.

    The real stinker are the healers. In FFXIV, the group just doesn't take enough damage to warrant the healer healing all of the time (which is a good thing!), but healers just don't have fun DPS rotations. You either just spam your AoE like Holy, or you place a DoT on the boss (Aero) and then spam one attack over and over again (Stone or Glare). I was hopping that the new healing class, Sage, would have a robust DPS rotation, but now that we've seen its ability tooltips, it sadly looks to be another healer with a boring DPS rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isheria View Post
    The only good designed jobs are the dps ones, healers and tanks are basically dps that sometimes heal and tank. There's a reason the majority of class complaints come from healers and tanks simply because of that and even the game director openly admits that he doesn't like designing healers and tanks.
    WoW tanks were the best when they had active mitigation rotation (ie, a paladin or a warrior spending holy power or rage to raise his shield for 3 seconds to defend from a tankbuster). That felt good. But otherwise tanks feel bad to play because they hit like a wet noodle. At least in FFXIV, tanks only deal marginally less damage than DPS, but again hitting like a wet noodle is sorta the norm in FFXIV.

    The real stinker are the healers. In FFXIV, the group just doesn't take enough damage to warrant the healer healing all of the time (which is a good thing!), but healers just don't have fun DPS rotations. You either just spam your AoE like Holy, or you place a DoT on the boss (Aero) and then spam one attack over and over again (Stone or Glare). I was hopping that the new healing class, Sage, would have a robust DPS rotation, but now that we've seen its ability tooltips, it sadly looks to be another healer with a boring DPS rotation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    Large raids are the one nice thing Blizzard has left in WoW. 10 man raids don’t feel epic. Shit I even miss 40 man raids. After playing Classic I was reminded just how amazing it felt to raid with a full 40 man raid team. It was epic as hell. 10 man is like a dungeon and kinda sad.
    Huge raids are atmospheric but they're not fun to organize around. I also don't like doing actually hard content with groups that big, because you have more people making mistakes which drags out the prog. I had much more fun doing 10 man raiding or FFXIV's 8 man raiding, where you have a small intimate group of people chatting and there are fewer people to make mistakes.

    What makes WoW's raids great is the experience of going through the boss' evil lair, of going through the gates and the foyers and making your way up a tower to confront the villain his throne room. WoW's raids like ICC, Dragon Soul, Throne of Thunder, SoO, BRF, Hellfire, etc, feel really climatic because of that build up. FFXIV doesn't really have that, as a "raid" just means queueing for a boss fight and then being teleported onto the boss' platform.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Beet View Post
    Large raids are the one nice thing Blizzard has left in WoW. 10 man raids don’t feel epic. Shit I even miss 40 man raids. After playing Classic I was reminded just how amazing it felt to raid with a full 40 man raid team. It was epic as hell. 10 man is like a dungeon and kinda sad.
    I'm the opposite. It felt epic to play with a closer knit group of friends rather than struggle to keep 20 people logging in 3 times a week with 40% of them just being "carries" in order to fill out the roster.

  14. #34
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Major difference. FF doesnt let you use addons.
    You can use addons, you're just not allowed to publicly talk about them. There are addons for FF14 that reveal the boss AoEs ahead of time.

    WoW have harder bosses only becouse you have way more information during fight thanks to addons.
    WoW boss fights are harder because 1. Blizzard designs their fights around the players using addons, so they are mandatory and if you're not using addons then you're screwed, whereas FFXIV designs their boss fights to be beatable without addons. 2. Blizzard really wants to inflate how long people play their game, which extends subscription time and thus revenue. Hence why they overtune their bosses (and make the world first raiders into unpaid beta testers), whereas FFXIV is fine with people beating a new boss on the hardest difficulty a few after a patch goes live and then unsubbing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    the only difficulty in wow is the massive gear requirement for most bosses.
    Another keen observation. WoW overtunes their boss fights to the point that you're expected to "beat them" but outgearing them after several weeks of grinding. In FFXIV, even late-expansion bosses are generally designed to be beatable even if you've just hit level cap a few hours ago and don't have good gear. FFXIV is simply designed to be more respectful of people's time. You're not required to be a no-lifer like in WoW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli85 View Post
    I'll preface my comment with this: 10-man mythic raids will never happen.

    I think most people who are committed to raiding understand the practicality of 10-man raiding, or in the case of XIV, 8-man raiding. In the current iteration of the game, it's often too difficult for your average mythic guild to assemble roughly 25 players who have high attendance and play at a high enough level. Yes, there are plenty of examples of guilds that don't have this problem, but anyone that's been raiding for awhile now knows roster boss is a big challenge, and often why guilds fall apart. If raids were suddenly designed around 10 players, a lot of these issues would dissipate. Thus why Limit and Echo are very warm to the idea.

    Honestly, people really need to put aside the "but I like lots of players" argument and just focus on a practical solution that will make the most people happy.
    Another thing too, is on certain servers, it's just impossible to get together a 20 man raid team depending on which faction you are on. Alliance guilds are really struggling right now to find enough raiders. If you want to stay Alliance, then you need to transfer to another server, but getting everyone to agree to drop hundreds of dollars to transfer all of their alts is a breaking point for many guilds. Whereas you can usually get a 10 man group together even on low pop servers.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    The irony of WoW players getting attitude cause FFXIV is doing something fun in their game like 8 man raids.

    Blizzard made a stupid ass choice to remove 10 man raids. IT WAS TOOOOOO FUN. Not sure why this is anything new for the boringness of WoW. Blizzard ALWAYS removes bullshit that the players like (Mage Tower, 10-man raids, reforge (some players liked it), certain abilities for classes....warlock metamorphosis). The game isn't designed for fun. IT IS DESIGNED TO GRAB WHALES AND TAKE THIER MONEY..............CONTINUOUSLY.
    This decision was purely the fault of the community back then, 10m vs 25m was a shit drama started by community

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post

    Another keen observation. WoW overtunes their boss fights to the point that you're expected to "beat them" but outgearing them after several weeks of grinding. In FFXIV, even late-expansion bosses are generally designed to be beatable even if you've just hit level cap a few hours ago and don't have good gear. FFXIV is simply designed to be more respectful of people's time. You're not required to be a no-lifer like in WoW.
    Why do people keep using this pointless observation which is a massive lie?

    World firsters and a few others no-life it by choice, it is not required the least to no life it.

    Or are we supposed to pretend there havent been a huge amount of 2 day raiding guilds for years now, getting CE in a relevant period?

    This whole attempt to once more blame a non-existent problem into why you arent taking part in it..you can simply say "I dont want to", not to lie about it repeatedly until everyone agrees with you, and you the community, not you yourself.

    Weekly requirements in SL are literally 1 hour on a geared character, and only for a few weeks if you dont care much to keep farming stuff like Torghast.

    FFXIV is designed with minimal RNG so it can be choreographed and defeated by people that wouldnt manage it otherwise, the same way LFR does barely any damage to even kill a player.
    Last edited by potis; 2021-10-28 at 07:49 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Major difference. FF doesnt let you use addons. WoW have harder bosses only becouse you have way more information during fight thanks to addons. So even ff bosses are easyer lack of addons and iformation puts them on same level difficulty as wow bosses.
    They're just not though. It takes less than 1 day for the top teams to clear FF raids when they are released, and that's without PTR testing them. I raided the last tier of Stormblood and the first tier of Shadowbringers and it was a very short progress compared to my WoW experience. FF raids are just about learning the steps of each unique dance, then it's dead. Takes a few hours at most for competent teams.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    This decision was purely the fault of the community back then, 10m vs 25m was a shit drama started by community

    Disagree 100% you're forgetting, 10 man was far more popular and actually had the community outraged with the change to 20.

    Thanks everyone for keeping this going, please don't shit on each other, I think the journey into FF has brought the need for 10mans back!

  19. #39
    Honestly I wouldn't mind a return to 10-man raiding. It'd make guild management easier, PUGing too. On the downside, there might be too much impact from particular classes, as having specific buffs etc. would be harder and that could lead to more problems with group formation (though I'd also be in favor of just getting rid of those kinds of buffs/debuffs).

    There's also an issue with encounter complexity, where you have less stuff going on overall - if you have a mechanic where 15 people need to coordinate what they're doing, that's LOADS more difficult than having 7 people coordinate what they're doing. You also tend to have a lot more space to move around and avoid people, which matters for a ton of mechanics. All this was part of the reason they could never properly balance 10-man vs. 25-man, so it's not like it'd come as a surprise. It's not impossible to get around, though - if you ONLY have 10-man to deal with, you could just make different mechanics that work better with smaller groups, like idk personal responsibility shit or movement or whatever.

    For me, it's largely just personal preference. I prefer a smaller, more tightly-knit group of people over a larger roster.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    You're not required to be a no-lifer like in WoW.
    This just makes you sound like a petulant child. My mythic guild are all 20+ years old with jobs and most of us with families, we're definitely not "no-lifers", as if such a term still means anything in 2021. I get that people like to defend their territory and don't like negative things said about their games, but implying that everyone has to live with their parents and be unemployed just to beat WoW raids is the most hyperbolic dumb shit I've heard in a long time. There is no need to start making stupid excuses for your game being easier, it's just the way it is, doesn't mean it's better or worse in any way.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

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