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  1. #21
    Hoof Hearted!!!
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    So you think that creating a game for a miniscule amount of players rather than all would succeed? A game designed for the majority , not the minority, is how you get a successful game. WoW has issues with a great many things, but since a majority of the game is designed for most players, it has had a great amount more success than if it would have been made solely for raiders or PvPers.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  2. #22
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    FFXIV already did it and it's working great! The Dev works really hard to get some content for all types of players, including the solo player thanks to the "trust" you can run dungeons with NPCs. A ton of size content, They got housing as Neighborhoods and some instant housing as well think some New York Multi rooms building! There are a ton of unlocks and different rewards... They got a real fun Crafting system that matters... And also they keep building on those systems, unlike Blizzard! next to that the mini-games and racing and jumping puzzles, huge accounts of the events... and so on!

  3. #23
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    It’s a theme park MMO. It’s OK not to enjoy some kinds of content. That’s why there’s everything from Mythic raiding to pet battles. The big joke about time-gated content is that it has always existed in the game. From limited drops to rep from dailies it’s always been a thing. They’re just not disguising it now.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  4. #24
    I’ve always agreed with this, I think it’s a bigger problem than people realise. Not to say that it’s one of the larger issues, but it does exist.
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2021-11-03 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Flatspriest View Post
    So you think that creating a game for a miniscule amount of players rather than all would succeed? A game designed for the majority , not the minority, is how you get a successful game. WoW has issues with a great many things, but since a majority of the game is designed for most players, it has had a great amount more success than if it would have been made solely for raiders or PvPers.
    He thinks that the majority would pay each month just to praise the 2% and dream that one day they could be one of them. They all think that. Somehow it makes their lives better i guess.

  6. #26
    Stood in the Fire Hastis's Avatar
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    we need more store mounts, less dungeons and raids, more transmog and pets, and achivments for buying store mounts, we dont need new zones and monsters we can use those who already are in game but recolour them

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    You cannot make an MMO that appeals to a niche crowd. You need to appeal to as large of a group as possible in order to have long term success.

    You need content that enough of your player base will participate in.

    MMOs aren't games like Dark Souls or other single player games.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvito View Post
    It depends on how they design it for everybody and the type of content. If we look at Legion content as an example it was great at giving multiple types of reasons and rewards for doing things. Warden Tower WQ are a great example. In a single WQ you would get honor, which had it's own subsection of various rewards, AP, freequently gear or xmog and whatever other rewards the place had at the time. You would get in a little quick pvp if that was what you wanted or just zip in kill your 10 things and bounce.
    And all that content you pointed out was boring faceroll with barely any gameplay. Thats his point. Blizzard crusade to make everthing acessible made everthing wattered down with 0 value. Becousr if you wanz content to appeal as much players as possible it has to be super easy which also means it will be super boring.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You cannot make an MMO that appeals to a niche crowd. You need to appeal to as large of a group as possible in order to have long term success.

    You need content that enough of your player base will participate in.

    MMOs aren't games like Dark Souls or other single player games.
    Nope. You just have to create mmo with different type of content for different players. And by different content i mean content not wattered down difficulty of content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    He thinks that the majority would pay each month just to praise the 2% and dream that one day they could be one of them. They all think that. Somehow it makes their lives better i guess.
    Yes. Thats litetaly why vannila and tbc were so sucesfull. There is nothing fun in mediocrity. And instead of forcing players into raiding the should rather create different content for people what were nit unterested in raids or w/e content you have in the game.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Yes. Thats litetaly why vannila and tbc were so sucesfull. There is nothing fun in mediocrity. And instead of forcing players into raiding the should rather create different content for people what were nit unterested in raids or w/e content you have in the game.
    Vanilla and tBC succeeded because they were bringing in MMO virgins. They weren't necessarily retaining them, though. And exponential word of mouth eventually burned itself out.

    It's patently ridiculous to imagine that players will be retained by the opportunity to watch another small population of players enjoying themselves.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  10. #30
    Name game has ever had content designed for everyone - grow up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Vanilla and tBC succeeded because they were bringing in MMO virgins. They weren't necessarily retaining them, though. And exponential word of mouth eventually burned itself out.

    It's patently ridiculous to imagine that players will be retained by the opportunity to watch another small population of players enjoying themselves.
    Well it's fairly obvious even if they release essentially the same game with classic and classic tbc - they both fail to capture the influence and popularity the originals did. What people wanted then isn't what people want now

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensa1 View Post
    You're sort of right...You simply can't try to be all things to all people because in the end no one is really satisfied. This isn't rocket science.

    Additionally, the switch to focus on MAU's is leading to metrics driving design decisions rather than the production of compelling content leading to people playing longer. That's why for at least the last 3 expansion they have essentially put lipstick on a pig by simply renaming MAU systems then trotting out Ion to apologize 1/2 through the expansion to only see more lipstick applied in the next expansion. And, unfortunately, tokens, boosting and mount collector's / store customers are distorting the true picture since those folks are spending more than ever regardless of the state of the game.

    And compelling content in an MMO is inherently tied to meaningful rewards and progression. In Classic, for example, there was a shield from SM that was BIS until lvl 60 for Shamans (there are lots of even better examples but you get the point). In today's game gear is made irrelevant almost the moment you earn it. Most other MMO's also do a much better job on crafting, that can provide compelling game play, which has all but been abandoned by Blizzard.


    While special snowflakes have long been lambasted, and I'm not one of them, you actually need meaningful, lasting rewards commensurate with effort / time in a game. The Oprah method of game design, "You win a car, You also win a car...everyone wins a car" produces a crappy product that players are not invested in or feel compelled to complete (hence the greater and greater reliance on MAU driven uninspiring gated design and reliance on Store Whales).
    This is a very big reason why, well said.

  12. #32
    I think any MMORPGs that even raise the question of 'content' and who it is designed for are already failing, regardless of how good said 'content' is.

  13. #33
    I think content needs to satisfy 3 basic concepts: separation, modularity and rewards.

    - separation: each content type must be self sufficient and self sustained. So basically if you like m+ or pvp only you should be able to do that without needing to dabble into other stuff for gear or other kind of rewards. This leads to a reduction overall of the players pertecipating in a single content, but all the people in it are actually willing to do it because they find it fun, making the whole playerbase of a specific section of the game more cohese and motivated.

    - modularity: the content should be constructed in a way you can "exchanged" its modules to create new playstyles. M+ really fulfills this well - dungeons with different bosses and seasonal theme. I don't think there's much to change from current setup; if anything some specific modules need tuning (example a specific boss fight or a seasonal affix).

    - rewards: each content should have enough rewards to satisfy players who partake in it. Connected to first point, i shouldn't need to do X content to get a reward in Y content. Domination Shards are terrible, as the trinket balance between M+ and raid. PvP gear is on a good route to be its own thing, i'll reinstate resilience as a stat so between the increased ilvl in pvp, the possibility to easily get the starter gear with honor and the fact you have an additional stat that erodes part of the item budget will make it really good for PvP but definitely under par for endgame PvE. I'd make tier sets for raid work only in raid, and tier sets in M+ that work only M+, same for trinkets. There is a mount for last Mythic boss, why not one for people who clear in time all 25s?


    The whole main issue with the game is that people cannot stand anymore doing things they don't like or care just to reach the point of being able to do the thing they actually want to do.

    Addressing OP specifically, it's not that content needs to be designed "for everyone"; it's that right now it's designed so everyone needs to do everything, and this makes the playing experience bad since you feel you're wasting time in unfunny things but you still do those because otherwise you're losing ground.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2021-11-03 at 01:31 PM.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Postmasters View Post
    It seems to be a common factor behind a lot of blizzards systems when it comes to new content designed for the game. No matter what the intent of the content orginally was the moment it is implemented as a step in progression it instantly becomes watered down to unbelievably dull and repetitive content.

    If the game wants to find its footing again I think it needs to be brave enough to make content that requires players to perform at a certain base level to advance and not be flexible.

    You can see it with any content in the game. Once something becomes unable to be failed it loses all value. From leveling to heroic dungeons to lfr.
    „having not a dedicated target audience“ is exactly the core problem. i say this since years. wow targets a that broad audience, it factually has no target audience.

    this becomes a huge problem, the older the game is. the older a game is, the more ppl leave it (naturally, getting older, family, etc) and less new ppl are added. this results in a specific and smaller playerbase. when you now still target in such a broad way, you get that compromise, noone is happy with and slowly you loose all of your players. instead you should accept the smaller and more specific target audience, accept that you loose another few, but keep a dedicated targeted rest.

    in short: what ATVI Blizz does works great with newer and hyped games. games like wow should target to a dedicated longterm loyal customer base and stick to them. or it ends with making noone happy and in the end all customers slowly fade away.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-11-03 at 01:41 PM.

  15. #35
    Pandaren Monk Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    What would happen if they created new servers for the esports crowd?
    Already exists called Tournament Servers. Honestly we should just move a lot of that ultra-competitive stuff over to those kinds of servers. R2WF, MDI, Great Push, AWC, etc.

    Stick them all on Tournament servers which provide all the gear and consumables from day 1 so it's really becomes an issue of skill.
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  16. #36
    WoW's problem has been, for a very long time, the hyper-focus on appealing to hardcore players who want difficult content. Anyone who thinks differently isn't living in the real world. WoW has become incredibly unfriendly to the rest of the player base. The thing that has made the game decline is exactly what you are asking for.

    There is no endgame anymore for anyone that doesn't want to do difficult content, because everything has been throttled in favor of that content. Virtually everything in the game that used to be geared toward casual players has been replaced (casual dungeons replaced by M+) or sidelined (casual PvP rewarding garbage gear). The whole endgame design is based on the question "How can we get casual players into the hardcore content?" rather than "How do we make content for the different types of players?"

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Nope. You just have to create mmo with different type of content for different players. And by different content i mean content not wattered down difficulty of content.
    Then then you would need to balance that content to make it rewarding for effort, and put things in place for players to be encouraged to try the content because you are paying people to developed it and the pieces have to work together as a whole otherwise it just feels like slapped together garbage even if each piece is awesome on its own.

    There is no reason to develop part of a game that only 0.1% of your players will experience. Hell, there is really no point in developing a part of your game that 1% will experience. You don't need to develop or even have a majority of people experience something, but you need enough to devote resources to it.

    Niche games and niche content doesn't grant long term success. You need a reason for people to keep playing and for new people to come in. Burnout is a thing, niche content plus burnout = dead game.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Then then you would need to balance that content to make it rewarding for effort, and put things in place for players to be encouraged to try the content because you are paying people to developed it and the pieces have to work together as a whole otherwise it just feels like slapped together garbage even if each piece is awesome on its own.

    There is no reason to develop part of a game that only 0.1% of your players will experience. Hell, there is really no point in developing a part of your game that 1% will experience. You don't need to develop or even have a majority of people experience something, but you need enough to devote resources to it.

    Niche games and niche content doesn't grant long term success. You need a reason for people to keep playing and for new people to come in. Burnout is a thing, niche content plus burnout = dead game.
    FF14 is killing it with a TON of niche content. The trick is they don't deprecate the niche content. When it is evergreen, it can be justified a lot more easily.

    Even when they take the tact you are talking about (versions for casual and for hardcore) the approach is to design it for the average player *first* and then make a version for the hardcore players, so the casual version really feels complete. WoW goes the opposite way.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The whole main issue with the game is that people cannot stand anymore doing things they don't like or care just to reach the point of being able to do the thing they actually want to do.
    This.

    Once more people in this thread are complaining about things they dont understand "They need to add more solo content" its a MMO designed to raid, not to play Skyrim on, yet people keep repeating this dumb comment.

    The problem is that after so many years people know what they are want to do in game, and for years they learnt a certain way, extending subs by adding dumb things, 1-2 times, people do it, after a bit, they dont, SL reached a point where its the 3rd time and people got tired of it.

    I dont mind Choreghast on one character the first time when its new, 10 months after on an alt, i really cant be bothered.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Postmasters View Post
    It seems to be a common factor behind a lot of blizzards systems when it comes to new content designed for the game. No matter what the intent of the content orginally was the moment it is implemented as a step in progression it instantly becomes watered down to unbelievably dull and repetitive content.

    If the game wants to find its footing again I think it needs to be brave enough to make content that requires players to perform at a certain base level to advance and not be flexible.

    You can see it with any content in the game. Once something becomes unable to be failed it loses all value. From leveling to heroic dungeons to lfr.
    i dont know about content for everyone - but SL made one thing perfecly clear- content designed for raiders alone means 90 % of players leave game .

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