I think content designed for everyone can't succeed

[Argorwal]

Sorry, I still couldn’t find any valid reason you should care the way I get my top gear.

You like getting it doing M+? Fine.

I like getting it fishing all the time? Fine.

Your playstyle doesn’t affect mine, mine doesn’t affect yours. This is all you should care IF you play for the sake of having fun doing what you like to do in game.

It doesn’t work that way. There are a large group of players that just have the mindset of must do everything possible to increase my power as much as possible.

Any “alternate” paths get translated to them as “in addition” paths, and complain about “forced” grinds instead.

[Biomega]

Problem is all the new age WoW players think they are gonna play Skyrim and its 200 hours of side quests in WoW.

I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong - WoW's brilliance has always been it's endgame PvE, raids and dungeons above all else. That's what the meat of the game is, and expecting otherwise would be a mistake as you said.

HOWEVER

Nothing says that's the only way WoW could be designed, or that it's even how it SHOULD be designed. Yes raiding and dungeons have traditionally been the main focus of the game, but perhaps it's time to add more stuff to that? I'm not saying to tone down the raiding and dungeons, of course; they're still the main thing. But why not ALSO add other kinds of content, more casual, more lore-oriented, etc.? Things that aren't necessarily directly correlated to, contingent on, or required for dungeons/raids (or PvP). Just content in its own right, in addition to all the other stuff. Content made to be fun and engaging, with its own reward loops. Maybe it's getting more into professions, maybe it's about class fantasy, who knows. Just throwing that out there as a potential option.

[Argorwal]

I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong - WoW's brilliance has always been it's endgame PvE, raids and dungeons above all else. That's what the meat of the game is, and expecting otherwise would be a mistake as you said.

HOWEVER

Nothing says that's the only way WoW could be designed, or that it's even how it SHOULD be designed. Yes raiding and dungeons have traditionally been the main focus of the game, but perhaps it's time to add more stuff to that? I'm not saying to tone down the raiding and dungeons, of course; they're still the main thing. But why not ALSO add other kinds of content, more casual, more lore-oriented, etc.? Things that aren't necessarily directly correlated to, contingent on, or required for dungeons/raids (or PvP). Just content in its own right, in addition to all the other stuff. Content made to be fun and engaging, with its own reward loops. Maybe it's getting more into professions, maybe it's about class fantasy, who knows. Just throwing that out there as a potential option.

If this “alternate” content has player power then the player base changes it from “alternate” to “in addition” and complains about forced grind.

If it’s cosmetic, it’s somewhat fine but then it’s not really helping the people who want progression outside of raids/dungeons/PvP so it’s kind of a moot point.

Mythic+ is an “alternate” gearing and progression path but the community instantly made it “in addition”

[potis]

I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong - WoW's brilliance has always been it's endgame PvE, raids and dungeons above all else. That's what the meat of the game is, and expecting otherwise would be a mistake as you said.

HOWEVER

Nothing says that's the only way WoW could be designed, or that it's even how it SHOULD be designed. Yes raiding and dungeons have traditionally been the main focus of the game, but perhaps it's time to add more stuff to that? I'm not saying to tone down the raiding and dungeons, of course; they're still the main thing. But why not ALSO add other kinds of content, more casual, more lore-oriented, etc.? Things that aren't necessarily directly correlated to, contingent on, or required for dungeons/raids (or PvP). Just content in its own right, in addition to all the other stuff. Content made to be fun and engaging, with its own reward loops. Maybe it's getting more into professions, maybe it's about class fantasy, who knows. Just throwing that out there as a potential option.

Argorwal was pretty much on point better than i would have said it.

People dont understand all the things they hate, someone else asked for it, not exactly as they implemented it, but 80% like it and twisted into something that fits the game design of "Keep the bouncing players 1 month longer".

Dont forget, these forums and reddit are loud minorities, if they followed mmo-champion, we would have a "You dinged max level, now stay online 2 hours for full 252 gear".

The only thing i respect the Blizzard team on, is on sticking with quality raiding, some bosses have gotten more annoying, as example as a raid leader for 17 years and rather decent at the game i got really annoyed with their shift in raiding after Dazalor, where they started introducing way more "personal fail raid wiper" abilities than before, compared to "Group up and soak" or "it will be somewhere", it makes me get annoyed with my weaker players more often, compared to before where i would simply do the mechanic myself instead of waiting for them to learn it.

[Biomega]

If this “alternate” content has player power then the player base changes it from “alternate” to “in addition” and complains about forced grind.

If it’s cosmetic, it’s somewhat fine but then it’s not really helping the people who want progression outside of raids/dungeons/PvP so it’s kind of a moot point.

Mythic+ is an “alternate” gearing and progression path but the community instantly made it “in addition”

I totally agree with the core problem you outlined: the second any form of content offers even minute power gains, it becomes "required" for PvE (and sometimes PvP as well). That's a self-defeating spiral that pulls the rug out from under any attempts at making extra content.

That's why I specifically said content that is not contingent on or required for dungeons/raids - think a separate reward loop, with no direct overlap. It could be cosmetics or whatever, fun stuff with no PvE impact. Content that's cool to just do, for its own sake, and not because there's a reward at the end that makes you do 10 extra DPS in a M+.

It's not easy to make content like that, of course. Thing MoP scenarios - they failed spectacularly, but imo that was because they were largely terrible. Nothing about them was fun or engaging, it was a combat simulator that functioned as a castrated dungeon without loot. The story implications were minimal or ridiculous. No one wanted that. But I refuse to believe it's IMPOSSIBLE to create cool content people would WANT to do. Heck, people play DMF games or whatever without real rewards. That's something at least (though not a lot).

It would certainly require a reconceptualization of WoW's core appeal. But I think it could be done. Not easily, not cheaply, but successfully. Of course I'm not saying to cut into PvE development resources for this - but I'm sure Blizzard has a vested interest in adding/retaining more casual players who might be interested in just doing "cool stuff".

And heck why NOT go hard on cosmetic rewards, too? Give people sick xmogs. Give them fun toys. Heirlooms. Whatever. Plenty of ways of doing this that doesn't impact PvE, which - again - I totally agree becomes a big problem the moment there's actual power involved.

Heck it's not even inconceivable that they could come up with an entirely separate progression system for this. Make an account-wide "family tree" you can level, with QoL perks for characters that don't matter in PvE, cosmetic rewards, all that. Give them titles, give them mounts, whatever. There's plenty of people who love this kind of stuff, as we can see in other games like FFXIV. You can even tie it into professions, like idk make some of the cosmetics craftables that you need to unlock or whatever. There's lots of potential design space they can fill, and yet keep power out of it.

[T-34]

Sorry, I still couldn’t find any valid reason you should care the way I get my top gear.

You like getting it doing M+? Fine.

I like getting it fishing all the time? Fine.

Your playstyle doesn’t affect mine, mine doesn’t affect yours. This is all you should care IF you play for the sake of having fun doing what you like to do in game.

I play WoW and not the Asian totalitarian state-simulator BECAUSE it to a great extent gives you rewards based on the difficulty of the content that you complete.
A game that gives out rewards based on "participation" instead of skill isn't a game - it is a Christmas present simulator.

I, and many others that prefer WoW, play it because your effort/skill actually has a great impact on how fast you get strong and how strong you are.
Giving out "free loot" to those that wilfully don't want to put in an effort, or with other words entitled players, would completely destroy that essential part of WoW.

I can recommend everybody that wilfully doesn't want to put in an effort to go play FFXIV - the perfect game for entitled players.

I have no problems whatsoever with not getting the best mythic raid loot as I don't deserve it. It is 100% a "me-problem" that I don't get it.

[chiddie]

I play WoW and not the Asian totalitarian state-simulator BECAUSE it to a great extent gives you rewards based on the difficulty of the content that you complete.
A game that gives out rewards based on "participation" instead of skill isn't a game - it is a Christmas present simulator.

I, and many others that prefer WoW, play it because your effort/skill actually has a great impact on how fast you get strong and how strong you are.
Giving out "free loot" to those that wilfully don't want to put in an effort, or with other words entitled players, would completely destroy that essential part of WoW.

I can recommend everybody that wilfully doesn't want to put in an effort to go play FFXIV - the perfect game for entitled players.

I have no problems whatsoever with not getting the best mythic raid loot as I don't deserve it. It is 100% a "me-problem" that I don't get it.

You play WoW to demonstrate you are better than other players with ilvl as a proof.

Your fun is not doing difficult content for the sake of challenge but for the sake of seeing your ilvl is better, else you couldn’t care more about what others do and gear they get, since the achievements would show how you got your gear and when.

It’s a legit approach of course, but i don’t like it. When i ran M+ in S1 I wanted to reach 15 to prove myself I could, not because this way I could have a better gear compared to a dude that did only heroic dungeons. You can have roughly my same gear by fishing for the same amount of hours, why should I care? I have more fun doing M+ and I will get my gear that way, who cares about what you do in game to have your fun?

I got your same gear by crafting complex and long receipts, I put my efforts there and not in M+, where’s the problem? Did I spoil your fun doing dungeons?

[Azerate]

It's great that content in wow is not designed for everyone to succeed then.

There are different types of content for different types of players, and some of these types have multiple difficulty levels to cater to players with varying degrees of skill.

Anything else, banned op?

[draugril]

It's great that content in wow is not designed for everyone to succeed then.

There are different types of content for different types of players, and some of these types have multiple difficulty levels to cater to players with varying degrees of skill.

Anything else, banned op?

The implication of WoW's structure is to funnel you ever to greater heights, however. Not everyone has the time or talent to pursue. It can be difficult to take pride in downing that Heroic raid or finishing a +10 when the game is funneling you into the next step. You're never "done" with the content. Instead, the next patch releases and that content is functionally abandoned by both players and developers. That isn't satisfying.

[Azerate]

The implication of WoW's structure is to funnel you ever to greater heights, however. Not everyone has the time or talent to pursue. It can be difficult to take pride in downing that Heroic raid or finishing a +10 when the game is funneling you into the next step. You're never "done" with the content. Instead, the next patch releases and that content is functionally abandoned by both players and developers. That isn't satisfying.

It's fine that the game softly encourages you to try harder content. Some players might be enticed, try it and find it satisfying to do. There are plenty who just stop at their difficulty level of choice and consider themselves done with the content until the next patch. It's fine that there is content of varying difficulty in the game. Not everyone has to complete everything, and not everything has to be for everyone.

[Cthulhu 2020]

It's the opposite. WoW focuses too much on raid and dungeon content, and ignores other more casual content. It's one of the many reasons it's hemorrhaging players. There are other games that have a plethora of different types of content that exploding in player population. It's another reason the dev team said they're taking a step back and reevaluating their approach to the game, and they're looking at adding features players have been asking for for years. Stuff that's more than just raid or dungeon content.

[Argorwal]

It's the opposite. WoW focuses too much on raid and dungeon content, and ignores other more casual content. It's one of the many reasons it's hemorrhaging players. There are other games that have a plethora of different types of content that exploding in player population. It's another reason the dev team said they're taking a step back and reevaluating their approach to the game, and they're looking at adding features players have been asking for for years. Stuff that's more than just raid or dungeon content.

The golden area of WoW with the most growth and playerbase was TBC and Wrath, both of which focused heavily on raid and dungeon content. You aren't getting very far in those expansions without doing dungeons and raids.

Catering to solo world questers is relatively new ala Legion.

[Osmeric]

The golden area of WoW with the most growth and playerbase was TBC and Wrath, both of which focused heavily on raid and dungeon content. You aren't getting very far in those expansions without doing dungeons and raids.

Those expansions were successful because they brought in for the first time a vast population of MMO virgins, not because they had raid content. Raids participation was notably slacking in both (especially later tiers), which was why raids were made more accessible in Wrath.

[Xath]

That is why they shouldn't design the same content for everyone but more options, some might not be for everyone.

WoW currently has a problem, its main 'end-game' peak is currently raiding, PvP, and Mythic+, nothing more, leaving out a majority of interest in the world, and the character. We need to flatten the line, not peak at three things, and then forget the rest.

What exactly was it's endgame in BC Wrath Cata MoP those 4 expansions are generally considered to have the peak population. Hint it was only raiding and pvp and maybe cmodes if you enjoyed the speed run aspect.

[starstationprofm]

Something Blizzard fails to realize is that the raiding scene shouldn't be easy, nor should mythic + serve as a complete alternative.

One major issue with raiding was the removal of the 10/25 man structure in favor of what we have now. 10 man allowed smaller guilds to exist, which meant more guilds overall, which meant less competition to recruit/get into a group.

LFR was a stupid fucking idea as well. Disregarding the fact that you can go in there, right click the boss, and tab out for free loot, it trivialized endgame content to an extent that has never been seen before. Raids always had a wow factor when you first went to them that they now completely lack due to accessibility on trivial difficulties.

This is at least the main example I can find of Blizzard trying to make content designed for everyone. They had a fucking phenomenal raiding setup through Firelands and completely threw it away for accessibility which ultimately just made the content age faster and made interest in raiding dwindle.

LFR is not a bad thing. It means casual players can experience the story. What's the point of making great raids if you have a Vanilla Naxx situation where only 2% of players ever see it?

[Ashleyxoxo]

But it make the most monies.

[Th3Scourge]

content designed for everyone is content designed for no one

[Sansnom]

The golden area of WoW with the most growth and playerbase was TBC and Wrath, both of which focused heavily on raid and dungeon content. You aren't getting very far in those expansions without doing dungeons and raids.

Catering to solo world questers is relatively new ala Legion.

I recall Blizzard once mentioned that 1% or a low single digit percentage of the player based experience the last raid, Sunwell I think. Cannot remember. WoW was still new to some players. I started playing in the middle of TBC.

I guess a good percentage, or even a large percentage, had contents outside of raid because these players were not at max level. So still sufficient contents, ie levelling, for them to go through.

You seems to suggest during that golden age of WoW, many players were happly raiding with their friends and guilds. I don't believe that was the case. Only a small percentage were raiding and most were still levelling.

[Cthulhu 2020]

The golden area of WoW with the most growth and playerbase was TBC and Wrath, both of which focused heavily on raid and dungeon content. You aren't getting very far in those expansions without doing dungeons and raids.

Catering to solo world questers is relatively new ala Legion.

The vast majority of those people never raided. They played super casually with their friends, RPing and doing the occasional dungeon content. These days just having an MMO world to exist in isn't enough. The hyper focus on raids and mythic dungeons is going to hurt WoW in the long run. Pet battles are nice, but they need like 20 more casual systems like that to catch up to the competition.

[T-34]

I got your same gear by crafting complex and long receipts, I put my efforts there and not in M+, where’s the problem? Did I spoil your fun doing dungeons?

We can agree to disagree.
I find no human activity fun where you can't measure yourself against your peers.
I find no human activity fun where you get rewards "for particiation" and not for "skill/effort".
It should be added that this isn't 100% the case in WoW today with its system of catch-up gearing, but still to a great extent your power/rewards stem from your skill/effort.

Whether WoW should move (more) in the direction of FFXIV with its well-developed system of participation trophies and mandatory mediocrity will at the end of the day be decided by what Blizzard thinks will give it most money.
I personally would stop playing if that should happen, but it is my clear impression that those that wilfully don't want to put in an effort and feel entitled to the same rewards as those that do are grossly over-represented on this forum.
I very rarely meet such people in-game.