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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    Titanforging was garbage. Lets add RNG on top of the RNG of already getting the piece of loot you want.
    Then it should just be on non-Mythic stuff. Mythic tier gear could be the cap. Doing WQ and heroic dungeons are dead content essentially without TF or some sort of Valor Point system with a vendor that updates their wares every patch.
    Class Thoughts:
    Necromancer

  2. #22
    I definitely think higher level gear should be obtainable outside of raiding and mythics and the like. Going deep into those features gives you ever-better gear to let you do it more efficiently, so why shouldn't outdoor content let you get as powerful in outdoor content as raid content lets you?

    I'd be interested in what people would think of a gearing system where gear is segregated into the content it's obtained from, and simple does better in the content it's sourced from than in the other places.

    So, for example, assume we have LFR at ilevel 200, Normal at ilevel 210, Heroic at 220, Mythic at 230. Assume you can get ilevel 230 WQ, Mythic dungeon and PvP gear too, but if you use that gear in any of the other parts of the game than where it's sourced from it's one 'tier' lower - AKA if you earn ilevel 220 WQ gear and go into a raid or PvP it'll temporarily be treated as ilevel 210.

    That way the value of mythic raid gear is still preserved because you still need to raid to get the best raid gear, you still need to do mythic dungeons to get the best mythic dungeon gear, players can still largely move between content types without TOO much of a disadvantage but are incentivised to work at a particular type of content if they want the best gear for it, and everyone's happy.

    Curious how people would respond if a system like that was introduced in 10.0.


    Edit: The "if you're not doing raiding you don't need high-level raid gear" debate point annoys me. First, higher ilevel gear is always desirable because it allows you to do what you already do faster. That's a real benefit to 'casual' players who are more interested in doing solo repetitive content for whatever reason. Second, you never *needed* best in slot gear to raid, either, so why was titanforging so hated if having better gear that necessary is such a silly premise?
    Last edited by Soeroah; 2021-11-04 at 06:03 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Following that logic - why does Mythic drop the best gear? It's not like you'll need stronger gear for anything after that.
    That is actually true only for the last boss in mythic, but for that one your argument is correct, yes. You can argue however that the loot on that boss is for faster/easier reclears to get more people the cosmetic loot from the boss.

    That being said, the loot-from-hardest-boss-problem is as old as rpgs themselves.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I want to see Badges of Justice with a weekly cap, obtainable through whatever content you enjoy doing. Raiders can get them from raids, M+ enjoyers from M+, PvPers from PvP, WQ folk from WQ, or any mixture of the bunch. Usable to get decent quality heroic loot from a vendor in slots where there's no crafted gear/special quest reward gear. Something like that would be rewarding for the casual crowd, while also giving raiders something to fill in the blanks with, while allowing them to skip WQs if they don't enjoy them.
    Or, or, you could do Heroic Raiding to get the loot awardable for defeating them. If you only do LFR you should be limited to LFR gear. You should NOT be awarded gear for a Raid or Dungeon difficulty above your personal contribution or effort spent to earn them. If you want higher level gear you must complete the content at the appropriate level to get it. If all you do is World Quests, dailies or otherwise. You should NOT just be handed free max-level gear. I guess the new M+ system is an adequate starting point. It limits your gear level to your actual accomplishments. Not taking into account people foolishly buying carries instead of simply getting better at the game.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    Or, or, you could do Heroic Raiding to get the loot awardable for defeating them. If you only do LFR you should be limited to LFR gear. You should NOT be awarded gear for a Raid or Dungeon difficulty above your personal contribution or effort spent to earn them. If you want higher level gear you must complete the content at the appropriate level to get it. If all you do is World Quests, dailies or otherwise. You should NOT just be handed free max-level gear. I guess the new M+ system is an adequate starting point. It limits your gear level to your actual accomplishments. Not taking into account people foolishly buying carries instead of simply getting better at the game.
    I'm a mythic raider & I don't want to do WQs for boring flat % borrowed power spikes, but understand that casual players need some sort of meaningful progression to keep them invested as well. I'd much rather give them gear over time than to have a system of borrowed power where I'm stuck doing the same chores as they are Caring about what gear other people have is mad - just enjoy what you have, & let other people enjoy what they can get.

  6. #26
    I think high-end gear from WQ or Torahs is definitely an overkill.
    But, at the same time, ilvl 200 gear is absolutely laughable at this stage. I would take literally anything else: gold, valour, universal reputation tokens maybe?
    Torghast could also use more rewards. I mean - adding shoulders is nice, but what about the rest of the set? What about something actually useful after you completed your legggo?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by b1gh3x View Post
    I can pay 150k once a week for a guaranteed piece of 252 loot from M+
    but getting a 252 piece of loot from World Quests or Torghast takes less skill and thus, is not deserving of the same reward?
    There are a whole lot of addicts playing this game who have spent over half their lives chasing pixels. To them it is very serious business if normal people with jobs are able to get the same pixels that they had to grind 14 hours a day for

  8. #28
    Agree. It's much less of a problem, at least you're doing something as opposed to paying your way in.

    But it might still not be good for you as a player in the end, because it destroys the excitement of actually getting a good upgrade from a hard task, when you get all this welfare gear.

    The game at its core is broken right now in several ways though.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Following that logic - why does Mythic drop the best gear? It's not like you'll need stronger gear for anything after that.
    You need better gear for the later bosses and also for the next raidtier. Usually. Nowadays gear gets reset with every patch so you could argue that the last boss doesnt need to drop gear, maybe only transmog and mounts and stuff for prestige.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I'm a mythic raider & I don't want to do WQs for boring flat % borrowed power spikes, but understand that casual players need some sort of meaningful progression to keep them invested as well. I'd much rather give them gear over time than to have a system of borrowed power where I'm stuck doing the same chores as they are Caring about what gear other people have is mad - just enjoy what you have, & let other people enjoy what they can get.
    Is meaningful progression really just numbers going up rather then progressing through content?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by saixilein View Post
    You could progress through WQs, Thorgast, Daylies etc to get high end gear, but the progressions is slower, so you are mostly fullgeared at mid - end of the patch cycle.

    I miss a part of the game where you can get gear outside of m+ and mythic raiding.
    The whole WQ system would have to change for that.
    I think crafting should be looked at first when it comes to alternative BiS gear that is not from raids/m+

    You could build WQs into that, but directly looting BiS/max ilvl gear from WQs sounds horrible.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    I’m not against boosting, but I honestly can’t understand people that buy them. In essence you’re paying people to play the game for you. At that rate, whats the point of even playing?

    Open world content shouldn’t reward 252 gear because the content isn’t scaled to the point where it’s essential. In mythic raiding, there’s enrage timers and it’s essential to have better gear in order to increase the performance ceiling. Most people who only do open world content don’t come close to their ceiling and are likely closer to the floor as far as performance goes.

    I have every class at 60 and have had no trouble completing open world content with ~200 ilvl. There’s no rational case why anyone doing solo content should need 252 gear. If they want it, then the incentive is there and they can play with others. Just make sure that if you do group content, pull up a wowhead guide on your class and learn how to perform before burdening your group.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I have every class at 60 and have had no trouble completing open world content with ~200 ilvl. There’s no rational case why anyone doing solo content should need 252 gear. If they want it, then the incentive is there and they can play with others. Just make sure that if you do group content, pull up a wowhead guide on your class and learn how to perform before burdening your group.
    Many people play RPGS to become powerful, even if the content doesn't require it. As Ghostcrawler said, wow is a game about upgrading your stuff. This is true if you are a super casual hobbyist or a lifestyle try-hard

    The whole "you don't need upgrades for the content you are doing" is a canard that has never made any sense. Totally (and often intentionally) misunderstands player psychology.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I'll say it. I miss Titanforging.
    I miss reforging

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I'll say it. I miss Titanforging.
    No thanks. But blizzard needs to get off their elitist arses and realize that item based character progression shouldn't be exclusive to people who run the highest content. Especially if you jump through hoops like the shitty knowledge fragment farm and then all you get is trash barely on the level of entry tier raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dejiko View Post
    I miss reforging
    With this I can agree. So many terrible items in the vault each weak that could at least be not quite as terrible..
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  16. #36
    Id be fine if they brought back thunderforging where gear can upgrade like 6-7 item levels but it remains below the next tier of reward.

    Or they can have world quest rewards drop as 1/5 or something and you can upgrade them like you can in mythic+ with justice points. But the fully upgraded item has to be below mythic raid. But also don't have some super good effect on it like benthic gear that makes it BiS so you are forced to grind for it.

    The thunderforging aspect could upgrade it to 2/5 or 3/5. That way there is still a reasonable RNG cap.

    I do think making the world completely cosmetic only was a mistake. Cause a heroic raider or mythic+ player would quickly outgear the reward system that I outlined above. But it would still allow solo players rewards to grind.

    With mythic+ score being baseline, pvp rating being shown, and mythic raid achieves, you can easily tell who's done content instead of habing to look at gear.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2021-11-04 at 07:00 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Felis igneus View Post
    No thanks. But blizzard needs to get off their elitist arses and realize that item based character progression shouldn't be exclusive to people who run the highest content. Especially if you jump through hoops like the shitty knowledge fragment farm and then all you get is trash barely on the level of entry tier raiding.
    I don't want Titanforging wholesale, but it's better than not having it at all imo.

    Here's the system I'd like:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52978348

    I was giving the valor point stuff as an alternative to TF if they don't want it back at all, but I've always thought the best of both worlds would be a valor point system where you can upgrade you gear to the highest ilevel. Doing harder content would give you a higher baseline piece. TF would work within the bounds of those upgrade tiers. Example:

    LFR boots drop: 100 ilevel. 0/10 valor point upgrades
    Normal boots drop: 115 ilevel 3/10 valor point upgrades
    Heroic: 130 6/10
    Mythic: 145 9/10

    A Titanforging drop can proc to get you +X upgrades up to cap. A casual player can slowly fill out all their gear over hte course of months. Raiders should be able to cap out quickly in just a few weeks. Mythic raiders should be able to max out as soon as they get their item drops with pooled VP.
    Class Thoughts:
    Necromancer

  18. #38
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Many people play RPGS to become powerful, even if the content doesn't require it. As Ghostcrawler said, wow is a game about upgrading your stuff. This is true if you are a super casual hobbyist or a lifestyle try-hard

    The whole "you don't need upgrades for the content you are doing" is a canard that has never made any sense. Totally (and often intentionally) misunderstands player psychology.
    I don't really have much empathy for people who act entitled. If someone wants better gear, the incentive is there and they can group up with others to progress. Besides, there's numerous ways to perceive progress outside of ilvl. You can hunt mounts, achievements and transmog. Hell another alternative is to make more characters and gear them up until you've hit a ceiling based on the content you prefer. With the revamps to leveling, having multiple alts is entirely feasible unlike it was 16 years ago.

    The biggest take away is perception. You think people who are 250 ilvl, mythic raid, push +15 or higher keystones and PvP at high ratings aren't affected by progress? I have 3 characters at 250 ilvl and there's no progress left for them. I pretty much have BiS on all of them minus a few pieces, but do you see me acting entitled? I went ahead and made more characters so that progress isn't impeded. What I think is a horrible idea and blizzard should never consider, is making the highest ilvl gear available from trivial content. When I start gearing up a new character around ~200 ilvl, I can breeze my way through open world content, primarily because I play very proficiently and play as close to the ceiling as possible. Most people who strictly do open world content don't care to look up guides or perform their spec as optimally as they can, the content they do doesn't require it.

    So no, I don't think players who strictly do solo content should be given 252 gear unless they earn it (or buy a boost). We're all equal and no one is better than any one else. The only thing separating us is our willingness to push ourselves and overcome difficult challenges. If that's not something you're into, then you don't get the best gear, simple as that.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I don't want Titanforging wholesale, but it's better than not having it at all imo.

    Here's the system I'd like:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52978348
    I could live with something like that.
    #1) MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    #2) Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    #3)Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis. #4) The WoW playerbase doesn't deserve housing.

  20. #40
    The best MMO's have multiple gearing paths, and used to until people started using phrases like "forced grind".

    1. High end raiding
    2. High end dungeoning
    3. High end crafting
    4. High end outdoor group play
    5. Reputation Grinding

    We can't have these options because the turbonerds and mouthbreathers complain about being forced to do all 5.

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