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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Having the best gear from the get go in easy content would make people less likely to hang around if there's no incentive to gear up through harder content...
    So what you're saying is that raiding is actually not at all fun, and the only reason people do it is because of the gear. That seems like pretty shitty game design.

    If anything, that's a much better argument for making gear more accessible. If those players enjoy gearing up but don't like raiding and only did it because they saw that as their only option then give them the fucking gear without raiding and let them actually enjoy their full gaming experience doing other things! People who ACTUALLY enjoy raiding and doing competitive content can still do those since that's the gameplay they enjoy. Gearing is part of most RPG's but it's not gameplay. Gameplay is what you do to GET the gear, and it doesn't need to be difficult, it should just be fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gourbaak View Post
    Why do you need 252 gear if you are not even capable if doing a single 15 per week ?
    I thought we were talking about a game. Why are you asking about what we NEED instead of what would be more fun?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Having the best gear from the get go in easy content would make people less likely to hang around if there's no incentive to gear up through harder content...
    Nobody said “from the get go”. Most people don’t want to gear up through harder content. People just want to gear up in the content they like.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Following that logic - why does Mythic drop the best gear? It's not like you'll need stronger gear for anything after that.
    Exactly this. If you can clear mythic with heroic gear, why does it drop better gear?
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    adding more paths, and yes solo paths to max ilvl gear would be one of the best improvements they could make to the game. Rather is through solo instances, crafting or WQs.
    Yup, it's one that of the reasons why people are fleeing to FFXIV, casual and/or solo players aren't treated like garbage. If you put in the time and the effort you can get close to the best gear in the game from running matchmade content.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I’ll say it again. Thank you for removing titanforging.
    Why? And please tell what type of content you do (eg mythic raiding, hc raiding, m+ only etc), to understand why it was detrimental to you.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    So what you're saying is that raiding is actually not at all fun, and the only reason people do it is because of the gear. That seems like pretty shitty game design.

    If anything, that's a much better argument for making gear more accessible. If those players enjoy gearing up but don't like raiding and only did it because they saw that as their only option then give them the fucking gear without raiding and let them actually enjoy their full gaming experience doing other things! People who ACTUALLY enjoy raiding and doing competitive content can still do those since that's the gameplay they enjoy. Gearing is part of most RPG's but it's not gameplay. Gameplay is what you do to GET the gear, and it doesn't need to be difficult, it should just be fun.

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    I thought we were talking about a game. Why are you asking about what we NEED instead of what would be more fun?
    Except gear from raiding have a weekly lockout.

    Though if I'm being honest, the people you describe are better off playing other games where there's no commitment required to 'gear up' which is typical for any given RPG.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jazen View Post
    Exactly this. If you can clear mythic with heroic gear, why does it drop better gear?
    For the next tier and the bosses are typically progressively harder with the final boss being stronger and so you can clear it more easily with the final boss gear to farm the cosmetic you earned for your raid.

    Exactly this...no, quite the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    Yup, it's one that of the reasons why people are fleeing to FFXIV, casual and/or solo players aren't treated like garbage. If you put in the time and the effort you can get close to the best gear in the game from running matchmade content.
    You can clear as a casual player unless you call casual the people who log 40 hours in game a week but refuse to raid/dungeon/pvp.

    Solo players shouldn't be balanced around in an MMO considering the second m has a meaning....

    But hey let's use hyperbole and say they're treated like garbage when they aren't also.

  8. #68
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    [QUOTE=ohwell;53457519]For the next tier and the bosses are typically progressively harder with the final boss being stronger and so you can clear it more easily with the final boss gear to farm the cosmetic you earned for your raid.

    Exactly this...no, quite the opposite.


    but the next tier is always clearable without mythic gear...
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  9. #69
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The game should absolutely allow everyone to achieve BiS gear with almost any endgame content.

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    The reason is simple: It makes those players have more fun and doesn’t make the game less fun for anyone else whatsoever.
    Absolutely it does. It enables “casual” players by allowing them to continue playing alone in an MMO. Let this sink in. These players will likely invest double, if not more time than those raidlogging for mythic raids. Time isn’t an issue, it’s simply a refusal on their behalf to participate in content with others. Back in the day when leveling, you’d come across an elite quest while leveling and unless you were a BM hunter or lock, there was almost no way you were going to solo it. This forced players to mingle and group up in order to accomplish a goal.

    If players who strictly do solo content feel like their back is against the wall and they feel pressured to cave in and play with others or quit, then that’s a good thing. If they’re too stubborn to play with others others and quit, even better. They’re a waste of space in the game if all they do group content and might as well be some NPC/Bot. So yes, giving those players access to the best gear without participating in group content is a hugely detrimental to the game.
    Last edited by crakerjack; 2021-11-05 at 06:56 PM.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Absolutely it does. It enables “casual” players by allowing them to continue playing alone in an MMO. Let this sink in. These players will likely invest double, if not more time than those raidlogging for mythic raids. Time isn’t an issue, it’s simply a refusal on their behalf to participate in content with others. Back in the day when leveling, you’d come across an elite quest while leveling and unless you were a BM hunter or lock, there was almost no way you were going to solo it. This forced players to mingle and group up in order to accomplish a goal.

    If players who strictly do solo content feel like their back is against the wall and they feel pressured to cave in and play with others or quit, then that’s a good thing. If they’re too stubborn to play with others others and quit, even better. They’re a waste of space in the game if all they do group content and might as well be some NPC/Bot. So yes, giving those players access to the best gear without participating in group content is a hugely detrimental to the game.
    Make up your mind. Are these players absolutely inconsequential to you, or are they hugely detrimental to the game? It can't be both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    For the next tier and the bosses are typically progressively harder with the final boss being stronger and so you can clear it more easily with the final boss gear to farm the cosmetic you earned for your raid.

    Exactly this...no, quite the opposite.

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    You can clear as a casual player unless you call casual the people who log 40 hours in game a week but refuse to raid/dungeon/pvp.

    Solo players shouldn't be balanced around in an MMO considering the second m has a meaning....

    But hey let's use hyperbole and say they're treated like garbage when they aren't also.
    Not treated like garbage, and then two posts after you is someone calling them wastes of space and declaring that that they should be pushed out of the game.
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  11. #71
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Make up your mind. Are these players absolutely inconsequential to you, or are they hugely detrimental to the game? It can't be both.

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    Not treated like garbage, and then two posts after you is someone calling them wastes of space and declaring that that they should be pushed out of the game.
    Sorry, let me simplify my views for you. It's inconsequential in the sense that no one acknowledges they exist other than on the quarterly MAU reports. You'll never see these players participate in group content so even though the sub count might be xxxx people, it really feels like less because these people play alone. It's detrimental in the sense that you're validating their style of play by allowing them to get the best gear possible by simply playing alone. The incentive to ever group up with others is stripped away and you'll likely never see these people group up with others. This in turns negates any possibility of them ever engaging in group content with others, thus hurting guilds struggling to find raiders or even pugs. Group content is reliant upon having numerous people available and when there's less people participating, that means longer queues and potentially not being able to do group content due to a lack of players. The only incentive left to convince these people to play with others is the limitations of the content they do. Either they'll cave in and group up with others and realize it's pretty fun, or they'll quit. Either scenario is a win for the game because like I said before, them playing alone is like having a random NPC/Bot running around.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Sorry, let me simplify my views for you. It's inconsequential in the sense that no one acknowledges they exist other than on the quarterly MAU reports. You'll never see these players participate in group content so even though the sub count might be xxxx people, it really feels like less because these people play alone. It's detrimental in the sense that you're validating their style of play by allowing them to get the best gear possible by simply playing alone. The incentive to ever group up with others is stripped away and you'll likely never see these people group up with others. This in turns negates any possibility of them ever engaging in group content with others, thus hurting guilds struggling to find raiders or even pugs. Group content is reliant upon having numerous people available and when there's less people participating, that means longer queues and potentially not being able to do group content due to a lack of players. The only incentive left to convince these people to play with others is the limitations of the content they do. Either they'll cave in and group up with others and realize it's pretty fun, or they'll quit. Either scenario is a win for the game because like I said before, them playing alone is like having a random NPC/Bot running around.
    Why do you want people that don't want to play content be forced into that content? So that you can berate them? Why isn't enough that the game has content and systems for you? Why does the ENTIRE GAME have to be for you?

    The vast majority of people who play "solo" would be happy to do random dungeons, random BGs, and similar queued content. The problem is that WoW makes these systems pretty much pointless and instead tries to funnel them into M+ and rated PvP if they want to play dungeons or BGs.
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  13. #73
    Getting 150k requires more effort than just doing Torghast and WQ.

    And people don't need 252 ilvl item for World Quests.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Sorry, let me simplify my views for you. It's inconsequential in the sense that no one acknowledges they exist other than on the quarterly MAU reports. You'll never see these players participate in group content so even though the sub count might be xxxx people, it really feels like less because these people play alone. It's detrimental in the sense that you're validating their style of play by allowing them to get the best gear possible by simply playing alone. The incentive to ever group up with others is stripped away and you'll likely never see these people group up with others. This in turns negates any possibility of them ever engaging in group content with others, thus hurting guilds struggling to find raiders or even pugs. Group content is reliant upon having numerous people available and when there's less people participating, that means longer queues and potentially not being able to do group content due to a lack of players. The only incentive left to convince these people to play with others is the limitations of the content they do. Either they'll cave in and group up with others and realize it's pretty fun, or they'll quit. Either scenario is a win for the game because like I said before, them playing alone is like having a random NPC/Bot running around.
    That wouldn't be a bad argument IF this game was strictly designed to be a group play game. It's not. There has always been content that didn't require a group to complete and that has grown and grown for the past several expansions. Like it or not, soloable content is a core part of WoW now. In fact, solo content (and I'd include queued content since it doesn't require you to cultivate any sort of social presence) is by far the most popular part of the game.

    Unless you want to argue that group content has to be forced and that no one would do it if they had the option to play solo, there really should be no issue with catering to both groups at the same time. I'm sure most if not all solo players aren't bothered by your desire to raid, but it seems you have a problem with them wanting to enjoy the game in a different (and according to Blizzard's design, valid) way of playing. That's more of a "you problem". How does someone who logs on only to do WQ's and through them gets 250+ ilvl affect you when you're raiding with your friends?

    I think trying to incentivize people to do group content by locking gear behind it is stupid. People should be incentivized to play group content because it is fun. That would also benefit the social aspect of groups in general since everyone participating would be there because they truly enjoyed it, not because they felt forced to be there as the only way to progress their character. Would certainly go a long way to reducing the number of toxic asshats that end up in groups/guilds not because they want to be there but because the gearing system makes it feel like a necessary part of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedius View Post
    Except gear from raiding have a weekly lockout.

    Though if I'm being honest, the people you describe are better off playing other games where there's no commitment required to 'gear up' which is typical for any given RPG.
    I know I didn't specify before, but I do think the progression part of gearing up is good. I'm not in favor of immediately getting the best level of gear as soon as you hit max level (thought that would still be possible via raiding if you get carried by friends or people you pay). It shouldn't be that difficult to plan out a way of doling out gear via solo content that matched the rate at which gear is acquired through raiding. The crux would be that whatever you do to progressively gear up should be something you enjoy doing, not something you feel forced to do because it's the only way. WoW offers multiple ways to play and enjoy the game, and it would make the game better to extend its progression system across those different ways of playing. If WoW had no solo play and you had to be in a group to do anything then there would be no argument here, but that would be a completely different game than what we have.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-11-05 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #75
    Non rated pvp, world quests, 5 man heroics, and normal raid difficulty, should all reward the same item level of gear. I think doing that would encourage people to participate in other forms of content more often. That would put the majority of players on the same level, in turn it would increase participation in harder content. People would be more inclined to make the jump into heroic raiding and rated pvp thus increasing the pool of players to draw from.

    With M+ and rated pvp, the gear could start out at +5 item levels to the "normal" gear, upgradeable by rating and difficulty the same way it works now. And heroic and mythic raiding operate the same way item lvl wise they do now.

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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    That wouldn't be a bad argument IF this game was strictly designed to be a group play game. It's not. There has always been content that didn't require a group to complete and that has grown and grown for the past several expansions. Like it or not, soloable content is a core part of WoW now. In fact, solo content (and I'd include queued content since it doesn't require you to cultivate any sort of social presence) is by far the most popular part of the game.

    Unless you want to argue that group content has to be forced and that no one would do it if they had the option to play solo, there really should be no issue with catering to both groups at the same time. I'm sure most if not all solo players aren't bothered by your desire to raid, but it seems you have a problem with them wanting to enjoy the game in a different (and according to Blizzard's design, valid) way of playing. That's more of a "you problem". How does someone who logs on only to do WQ's and through them gets 250+ ilvl affect you when you're raiding with your friends?

    I think trying to incentivize people to do group content by locking gear behind it is stupid. People should be incentivized to play group content because it is fun. That would also benefit the social aspect of groups in general since everyone participating would be there because they truly enjoyed it, not because they felt forced to be there as the only way to progress their character. Would certainly go a long way to reducing the number of toxic asshats that end up in groups/guilds not because they want to be there but because the gearing system makes it feel like a necessary part of the game.

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    I know I didn't specify before, but I do think the progression part of gearing up is good. I'm not in favor of immediately getting the best level of gear as soon as you hit max level (thought that would still be possible via raiding if you get carried by friends or people you pay). It shouldn't be that difficult to plan out a way of doling out gear via solo content that matched the rate at which gear is acquired through raiding. The crux would be that whatever you do to progressively gear up should be something you enjoy doing, not something you feel forced to do because it's the only way. WoW offers multiple ways to play and enjoy the game, and it would make the game better to extend its progression system across those different ways of playing. If WoW had no solo play and you had to be in a group to do anything then there would be no argument here, but that would be a completely different game than what we have.
    What happens in reality is all of these “alternative” gearing sources turn into “additional requirements” by the vast majority while they cry about the game forcing them to grind too many things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tumble View Post
    Non rated pvp, world quests, 5 man heroics, and normal raid difficulty, should all reward the same item level of gear. I think doing that would encourage people to participate in other forms of content more often. That would put the majority of players on the same level, in turn it would increase participation in harder content. People would be more inclined to make the jump into heroic raiding and rated pvp thus increasing the pool of players to draw from.

    With M+ and rated pvp, the gear could start out at +5 item levels to the "normal" gear, upgradeable by rating and difficulty the same way it works now. And heroic and mythic raiding operate the same way item lvl wise they do now.
    The game already pushes everyone to end up at the normal raid level gear anyway.

    Timewalking raids and quest
    Korthia (and in 9.0 covenant) gear
    Callings
    A +2 weekly vault

    The game pretty much forces you to 226 item level just casually playing (200 in 9.0).

  17. #77
    The process of powering up your character, the "carrot" so to speak is easily one of the biggest reasons many people play this game, at least I'm pretty sure the majority didn't do torghast/warfronts/expeditions for so long because the content was fun, it's the carrot.

    And blizz will never allow that carrot to rot in just a few weeks and you being done with it.
    Personally I wouldn't care if they'd make character power super deterministic and fast (5-6 week~ ish till BIS), I'm just wondering how many people would even be bothered with raiding anymore.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Why do you want people that don't want to play content be forced into that content? So that you can berate them? Why isn't enough that the game has content and systems for you? Why does the ENTIRE GAME have to be for you?

    The vast majority of people who play "solo" would be happy to do random dungeons, random BGs, and similar queued content. The problem is that WoW makes these systems pretty much pointless and instead tries to funnel them into M+ and rated PvP if they want to play dungeons or BGs.
    You just said you do random BG's. Aside from affixes, a timer and scaling, M+ is literally the same thing. Based on your comment about berating, it leads me to believe that the primary impedance is your fear of being attacked. Yes, that's a very possible scenario and it's unfortunate when it happens, but there's measure you can take to avoid it. First I would suggest joining a community or guild and let them know beforehand that you underperform and I can almost guarantee that they'll lend you a hand rather than spit on you. I've helped numerous people improve their performance, going from grey parses to purple parses.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    What happens in reality is all of these “alternative” gearing sources turn into “additional requirements” by the vast majority while they cry about the game forcing them to grind too many things.
    The vast majority are the ones who only do that alternative content, the stuff they enjoy. You're talking about the small minority of raiders who feel compelled to always be optimized and in doing so seem to forget that they're playing a game. I wish they could just stick to playing the parts of the game they enjoy, but I still feel that having a rewarding experience for a variety of different play styles is preferable to catering to the few who have compulsion issues. That being said, if people had a more varied way to progress their characters, that too would probably cut down on the more cutthroat aspects of raiding that lead to people constantly striving to be min/maxed.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    That wouldn't be a bad argument IF this game was strictly designed to be a group play game. It's not. There has always been content that didn't require a group to complete and that has grown and grown for the past several expansions. Like it or not, soloable content is a core part of WoW now. In fact, solo content (and I'd include queued content since it doesn't require you to cultivate any sort of social presence) is by far the most popular part of the game.

    Unless you want to argue that group content has to be forced and that no one would do it if they had the option to play solo, there really should be no issue with catering to both groups at the same time. I'm sure most if not all solo players aren't bothered by your desire to raid, but it seems you have a problem with them wanting to enjoy the game in a different (and according to Blizzard's design, valid) way of playing. That's more of a "you problem". How does someone who logs on only to do WQ's and through them gets 250+ ilvl affect you when you're raiding with your friends?

    I think trying to incentivize people to do group content by locking gear behind it is stupid. People should be incentivized to play group content because it is fun. That would also benefit the social aspect of groups in general since everyone participating would be there because they truly enjoyed it, not because they felt forced to be there as the only way to progress their character. Would certainly go a long way to reducing the number of toxic asshats that end up in groups/guilds not because they want to be there but because the gearing system makes it feel like a necessary part of the game.
    The issue is that the solo content will always be easier than group content because they can't balance it for like 40 specs or whatever the number is.

    Raiding content is designed to be hard and gear acquisition is necessary for it, and if there's an easy path to get gear then most raiders will do it, and they don't want to.

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