9.2 Lore Speculation

[Th3Scourge]

We can only pray that wow in 10.0 and beyond moves as far away from this cosmic dogshit and returns us to more 'grounded' stories. Since SL is entirely forgettable, we can just silo it in a portal that we will never revisit ever again.

[Alanar]

why noone ever questioned the Primus to be bad ?

i personally dont like him and i dont trust him. even in m+ when you killed a trait guy, he sounds like the Imperator to me, in the „Skywalker kills Count Doku“ scene.

- „kill him“
- „take his power“

why nobody ever questioned if he maybe is another part of Zovaals control ?

- who built the new sigil (that Zovaal needs too) ?
- who was away for a long time ?
- who handed out „accidentally“ nearly everything to Zovaal ?

i dont know. when i hear his talks… no clue, i never really trusted him.

And why exactly was the jailer bad again???
They took hes orb, put him into the maw.. only cus? He wanted to find some skeptical knowledge?

All eternals suck except for Denatrius.

[sighy]

https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/sylvana...actions-325140

Are they seriously suggesting that she was under Zovaal's direct control all this time??? Who wrote this?


(I'm aware it could be referrencing the time she almost killed Arthas, but why would she seek absolution, for something she had no control over?)





Also as a sidenote it's remarkable how they manage to undermine the character. She is not a part of figuring out the counter to domination magic, because she actually knows how it works and practiced it... Nope it's because she held Anduin's Kingsmourne and her presence would help cure his ass... like what?

[Eggroll]

Sylvanas will become the new Arbiter in the end, that much is obvious.

That would be a dubious decision. I imagine the role of the Arbiter would require impartiality and wisdom. Two qualities that Sylvanas has proven to be lacking tremendously.

[Zers Editor]

Gotta be honest. I really like the way Uther was handled in SL.

[TheFirstOnes]

https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/sylvana...actions-325140

Are they seriously suggesting that she was under Zovaal's direct control all this time??? Who wrote this?


(I'm aware it could be referrencing the time she almost killed Arthas, but why would she seek absolution, for something she had no control over?)





Also as a sidenote it's remarkable how they manage to undermine the character. She is not a part of figuring out the counter to domination magic, because she actually knows how it works and practiced it... Nope it's because she held Anduin's Kingsmourne and her presence would help cure his ass... like what?

Because of WC3, and what it led to after she decided the poisoned arrow would be enough to stop Arthas?

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And why exactly was the jailer bad again???
They took hes orb, put him into the maw.. only cus? He wanted to find some skeptical knowledge?

All eternals suck except for Denatrius.

Considering he wants to use the Forge of Afterlives to create an Eternity of TORMENT for the Shadowlands...

Yeeeeaaaahhh

[shoc]

Gotta be honest. I really like the way Uther was handled in SL.

Uther, Kael and Draka were all pretty cool. I mean, that's classic Blizzard storytelling though, right? The small stuff is usually not too bad, far from 'good' but compared to the flaming dumpster fire that is the 'main narrative' it looks very good.

[Ersula]

Considering he wants to use the Forge of Afterlives to create an Eternity of TORMENT for the Shadowlands...

Something we only find out at the end of the most recent raid.

I should write the game. My idea where it's not mind control, but its the alternative of eternal torment being how he gets his minions to do their bidding, then we learn Anduin became his minion by choice in order to save Sylvanas' soul, knowing his friends would save him, would have been infinitely more compelling.

[Super Dickmann]

Gotta be honest. I really like the way Uther was handled in SL.

Yeah, I absolutely loathe the end point of him deciding to feel okay with Arthas, but that was the end point of his Wrath non-story as well, whereas SL works a lot better with the point of his death and in moving him to that terrible end state.

[sighy]

Because of WC3, and what it led to after she decided the poisoned arrow would be enough to stop Arthas?

Point of the poison never was to kill Arthas, but incapacitate him for subsequent torture, because she hated him for what he put her through. That's literally never been ambiguous, altho somehow i doubt she will call him son of a bitch, in the inevitable scenario of her seeing the error of her ways xD

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, I absolutely loathe the end point of him deciding to feel okay with Arthas, but that was the end point of his Wrath non-story as well, whereas SL works a lot better with the point of his death and in moving him to that terrible end state.

I feel the arc works better if you consider Arthas as being under similar influence that Anduin is currently. It's human to hate him even if he wasnt in control, but Uther wants to be better than that.
Not to mention that I think much of his acceptance of Arthas stems from him trying to correct his rash decision to personally condemn Arthas to hell despite it going against all his beliefs, both in life and in death.

From the perspective of The Frozen Throne Arthas and Uther it doesnt work though, have to agree. But this is trying to recontextualize the struggle.


Or maybe I am just biased. I was way onboard with this storyline since the Afterlives short, and Uther is probably one of the better, if not the best character Shadowlands has.

[saixilein]

Im not that deep in lore but isnt it a runningag in wow that all villians are mindcontrolled and/or mainupulated?

[Super Dickmann]

Or maybe I am just biased. I was way onboard with this storyline since the Afterlives short, and Uther is probably one of the better, if not the best character Shadowlands has.

SL wins by default simply by portraying Uther as an actual character rather than as generic mentor archetype. The way Uther has been shown in WoW prior to that point, completely disregarding that he died furious and betrayed at how his student destroyed everything he cared about and also regarding his views on the orcs to Tirion, has always been a pet peeve of mine. SL actually goes back to his WC3 roots and works from his death on to get to its targeted point.

The root of my problem isn't even necessarily with Uther being able to come to the conclusion that he does, but that the narrative frames this an unequivocally correct choice, and how it relates to other tonedeaf choices like Tyrande rethinking Sylvanas and now Sylvanas herself rethinking Arthas.

[Sondrelk]

SL wins by default simply by portraying Uther as an actual character rather than as generic mentor archetype. The way Uther has been shown in WoW prior to that point, completely disregarding that he died furious and betrayed at how his student destroyed everything he cared about and also regarding his views on the orcs to Tirion, has always been a pet peeve of mine. SL actually goes back to his WC3 roots and works from his death on to get to its targeted point.

The root of my problem isn't even necessarily with Uther being able to come to the conclusion that he does, but that the narrative frames this an unequivocally correct choice, and how it relates to other tonedeaf choices like Tyrande rethinking Sylvanas and now Sylvanas herself rethinking Arthas.

Like always with this expansion, the root problem ends up being Sylvanas and her amazing ability to drag the plot down with her.

And yes, I have to agree that Uther comes across like very much a hypocrite when he is so ready to forgive Arthas and accept that he failed both himself and Arthas at the end, when we know that he was completely willing to kill off all orcs, as well as banish Tirion for seeing the nobility of some.


It will be interesting to see what happens to Arthas in the next patch though. I imagine that the time between the Anduin fight and the last 3 bosses will focus at least some bit on Arthas and how he relates to the Jailer, and I think some context on his actions might do wonders for the plot if it isnt too overdone.

[Myradin]

SL wins by default simply by portraying Uther as an actual character rather than as generic mentor archetype. The way Uther has been shown in WoW prior to that point, completely disregarding that he died furious and betrayed at how his student destroyed everything he cared about and also regarding his views on the orcs to Tirion, has always been a pet peeve of mine. SL actually goes back to his WC3 roots and works from his death on to get to its targeted point.

The root of my problem isn't even necessarily with Uther being able to come to the conclusion that he does, but that the narrative frames this an unequivocally correct choice, and how it relates to other tonedeaf choices like Tyrande rethinking Sylvanas and now Sylvanas herself rethinking Arthas.

Wow has this weird thing with "revenge/hate bad". Like, its not like the game has to be promoting it saying its great, but rather it seems to go out of its way to keep preaching.

Its especially weird in a franchise where we often just casually murder entire settlements just to get someone's pumpkin back.

[Sondrelk]

Seems like we have confirmation that the death pantheon is created in Zereth Mortis, not by Zovaal and not with any ulterior motives other than creating a barrier between us and the rest of the Sepulcher.

Nothing on whether this prototype pantheon included Zovaal, or whether he was made afterwards, or even preceded the rest of the Pantheon as a whole.


Interesting that the description talks about how this iteration was scrapped for being too zealous in their task, which could be a hint towards Zovaal and his backstory. Hopefully it doesnt just end up being one boss among many, and instead gets some actual buildup and lore tidbits thrown in before and after.

[Super Dickmann]

Seems like we have confirmation that the death pantheon is created in Zereth Mortis, not by Zovaal and not with any ulterior motives other than creating a barrier between us and the rest of the Sepulcher.

It's an entertaining enough concept, especially given the realms predated the Eternal Ones, like with Ardenweald and the mushroom, but I doubt it'll get any exploration to speak of on the existential element involved. Neither the writers nor the game are equipped to handle it so it'll likely just be a setpiece.

[Sondrelk]

It's an entertaining enough concept, especially given the realms predated the Eternal Ones, like with Ardenweald and the mushroom, but I doubt it'll get any exploration to speak of on the existential element involved. Neither the writers nor the game are equipped to handle it so it'll likely just be a setpiece.

That's my thought as well. It's a really fascinating bit of lore that could provide a satisfying punch of mystique to the narrative. I just think Shadowlands isnt goign to be able to support this.

Had this been for characters we know much better and more intimately then it probably would have been much moer fascinating, like an Old God incubation chamber with the Old Gods we have defeated.

We don't really know the Pantheon well enough for this to really rise above a neat twist. At best it might manage to add a bit of spicy predetermination to the Jailers betrayal, but most liekly it will end up just as a neat twist, to go along more with Zereth Mortis being a sandbox rather than what it could have been as a narrative reveal.


I think the best outcome at this point for it would be to use them to give Zovaal more depth. Maybe he predates the rest and originally wanted them to be more zealous, or on the flipside didnt and then ended up regretting it when they were too ineffectual to go along with his plans.

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Or alternatively, what is probably the best most fascinating outcome. The Jailer thinks the Shadowlands is flawed precisely because he was created to be the one betraying everyone, and he cannot stand how him wanting to end creation ironically just means he does what he was made to do.

[Zers Editor]

I do love that they are not even TRYING to hide the fact that Anduin will be saved.