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  1. #401
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Gaslighting is not necessarily intentional or, you know, you could just not say state your intentions truthfully.
    Give it up. You heard this term "gaslighting" and thought it's a wonderful way of attacking anyone with the gall to oppose your viewpoint. But you've been called on it now and found horribly wanting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Legendaries: You randomnly receive an item with different very powerful effects
    Corruption: You randomnly receive an item with different very powerful effects.
    These were not mistakes though.

    I mean I totally acknowledge the fact that there is/was a segment of the playerbase, particularly among the min/max crowd (who are really a pretty small minority) that hated this design. But not everyone did. Many were just fine with it. And as I have already pointed out, making these items more predictably obtainable several months down the line isn't the admission of some kind of error on the part of the devs that you seem to believe it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The problem is that they've dismissed with fallacious reasoning that their previous expansion has already proven as incorrect.
    No, it has not been proven incorrect. This remains a difference of opinions. You want to argue that the side you support is somehow objectively correct while everyone else is just wrong. Sorry, but you'd need to come up with a much better argument than you have at this point to convince me of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I see that evidence even in your post:

    By that, you essentially make the statement that being hardlocked on covenants or conduit energy was somehow beneficial to the casual community.
    You are so full of it.

    First of all, your accusation was that Blizzard assume that being bad for minmaxxers = good for casuals. You've provided no evidence to that end.
    Second of all, my argument is entirely agnostic on the question of whether or not those features are actually beneficial to the casual community. I am saying that Blizzard believes they are and this was their stated (by Ion in the article I linked and you seem to have largely ignored except for the small cherry picked snippets that suit your narrative) and that this is the motive for their choice to not follow the advice that you believe they should have. The entire point of which is to counter your assertion that Blizzard simply ignores feedback all the time for no good reason. And again, I am not saying that they made the correct choice necessarily every time, simply that they didn't ignore the feedback, and that they had good reasons for the choices they did make.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Never said it should go anywhere. I said as a consumer you should want the stuff for free rather than paying for it. Well not you of course.
    That ship sailed the minute Blizzard released WoW with a subscription model. It seems weird to be pro-consumer about WoW... a game that's had a subscription for almost two decades.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Never said it should go anywhere. I said as a consumer you should want the stuff for free rather than paying for it. Well not you of course.
    And if you'd been paying attention, you'd now realise that the existence of the shop helps with this. Other people spend money on the shop => You get more content.

    Like I say, as that consumer who wants more "free" stuff, you should be cheering the shop and those who generously spend their money there on instead of trying to oppose it.

  4. #404
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I have yet to see a "well though out" anti-store post. Because it if was well thought out, the conclusion wouldn't be anti-store.
    Why should transmog with finer detail and higher pixel count only be available on the store besides increasing revenue? What does the consumer get by paying extra for cash shop items? A better game? Last I heard the devs and the people that actually work on the game are having trouble making ends meet in their life. So clearly that money isn't going into their pockets.

    Also I don't believe this idea that the items you see in the shop are side projects the devs worked on that didn't make it into the game. Pretty convenient that these side project transmog somehow always look far better than what you can earn in-game. If it's a side project why do they look like they had more time spent on them.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Why should transmog with finer detail and higher pixel count only be available on the store besides increasing revenue? What does the consumer get by paying extra for cash shop items? A better game? Last I heard the devs and the people that actually work on the game are having trouble making ends meet in their life. So clearly that money isn't going into their pockets.

    Also I don't believe this idea that the items you see in the shop are side projects the devs worked on that didn't make it into the game. Pretty convenient that these side project transmog somehow always look far better than what you can earn in-game. If it's a side project why do they look like they had more time spent on them.
    Sounds an awful like you're only interested in hearing information that corroborates your opinion. You don't want to acknowledge that the devs may have different teams in charge of different projects but you do want to believe they're "having trouble making ends meet in their life" because, well, fuck corporations I guess. A bit selective with the information you want to believe and disbelieve, wouldn't you say?
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  6. #406
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Sounds an awful like you're only interested in hearing information that corroborates your opinion. You don't want to acknowledge that the devs may have different teams in charge of different projects but you do want to believe they're "having trouble making ends meet in their life" because, well, fuck corporations I guess. A bit selective with the information you want to believe and disbelieve, wouldn't you say?
    If we were getting these transmogs in-game with no strings attached then I would agree. We have yet to see something that looks really good like the latest addition with enhanced partical effects and design in the store. Why not drop one into the game that is not part of a promotion or cash shop.

    I'm open to any information you have that might prove otherwise or at the very least give the idea that it is not being done with a sinister motive (that being profit)

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And if you'd been paying attention, you'd now realise that the existence of the shop helps with this. Other people spend money on the shop => You get more content.

    Like I say, as that consumer who wants more "free" stuff, you should be cheering the shop and those who generously spend their money there on instead of trying to oppose it.
    Does it though? The shop gets bigger and bigger but we don't seem to be getting more and more content.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Does it though? The shop gets bigger and bigger but we don't seem to be getting more and more content.
    I mean, by simple virtue of how stores work it's not like it can get smaller, right? And even if it did, you'd have people claiming that Blizzard is stoking FOMO therefore also bad. As far as I know, we're still getting new content patches (albeit a bit slower than I'm sure most people would like this expansion) so it's a weird correlation to make.
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I mean, by simple virtue of how stores work it's not like it can get smaller, right? And even if it did, you'd have people claiming that Blizzard is stoking FOMO therefore also bad. As far as I know, we're still getting new content patches (albeit a bit slower than I'm sure most people would like this expansion) so it's a weird correlation to make.
    Well the fella i quoted said more cash shop sales = more content. Obviously that isn't the case. I guess there is no way to know how much they make from that is just offsetting the declining sub cash. They seem to be still making plenty each year. We seem to be getting less quality and quantity each year imho. I just spend 302k on a token to check out 9.1.5. As far as i can see there it is just a 'make alting easier' stuff. We had to wait 5 or 6 months for that? I guess with covid and the pervert problems they ain't getting much done. The cash shop seem to be the only thing pumping out regular content.

  10. #410
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    If we were getting these transmogs in-game with no strings attached then I would agree. We have yet to see something that looks really good like the latest addition with enhanced partical effects and design in the store. Why not drop one into the game that is not part of a promotion or cash shop.

    I'm open to any information you have that might prove otherwise or at the very least give the idea that it is not being done with a sinister motive (that being profit)
    Wouldn’t the warlock sets in tbc and legion with the wings or the Druid sets with the shifting beast faces count as sets with enhanced partical effects?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Does it though? The shop gets bigger and bigger but we don't seem to be getting more and more content.
    While more content is debatable there has absolutely been an increase in quality with things like more voice acting both for quest and random mobs and old models being updated and so on.

    Like if you compare legion onwards to past expans almost every questing area has mobs with voice acting which was rare before.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-11-19 at 06:44 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    What does the consumer get by paying extra for cash shop items? A better game?
    Doubtful. The consumer gets something they desire though and if transmog or a particular mount makes their personal experience better it's not up to you to criticize. Nothing from the store is required to get the full experience of the game. If you think there's not enough content do what others do and unsubscribe until there's something worth coming back for. I think that's the normal experience for many now and as a consumer it's the right thing to do if they so choose.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Doubtful. The consumer gets something they desire though and if transmog or a particular mount makes their personal experience better it's not up to you to criticize.
    It really is. People supporting terrible business practices promote even shitter ones. Why I always instant kick people using cash shop items or burn their keys.

    All choices have consequences one must face them eventually.

  13. #413
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chipped coin View Post
    It really is. People supporting terrible business practices promote even shitter ones. Why I always instant kick people using cash shop items or burn their keys.

    All choices have consequences one must face them eventually.
    No, you are not their parent or guardian. Only assholes kick people using cash shop items. I have a batwing mount from the store that was given to me as a gift. What kind of asshole makes a judgement based on that?
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    No, you are not their parent or guardian. Only assholes kick people using cash shop items. I have a batwing mount from the store that was given to me as a gift. What kind of asshole makes a judgement based on that?
    Clearly I do?

    What a weird question to ask. With any luck it will catch on like classic and corrections will come about.

  15. #415
    I have no problem with a cash shop in any game, even one with a box purchase and sub. It's the company's duty to scrounge for every dollar they can in every way possible, and some people just really enjoy purchasing shiny things for their hobby.

    That said, it's disingenuous to ignore the fact that the very existence of the cash shop alters design paradigms for the game. This means that there are very real reasons to oppose cash shops if you feel that the design decisions lead to producing a less enjoyable game for the individual. The only options available to such individuals are to complain, in hopes of effecting change or to leave. Many of them do one, the other, or both, but too many people in these threads feel it's incumbent upon themselves to encourage these people to leave rather than complain, likely because they don't like seeing their precious torn down. Of course, those people could just leave the thread, but hypocrisy is so much more fun. Plus, some people seem to be fixated on protecting their Madonna's purity at all costs.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Chipped coin View Post
    It really is. People supporting terrible business practices promote even shitter ones. Why I always instant kick people using cash shop items or burn their keys.

    All choices have consequences one must face them eventually.
    Truly you are a righteous crusader who will absolutely lead the vanguard of change by using these tactics, with bravery exemplified by a burner account.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Truly you are a righteous crusader who will absolutely lead the vanguard of change by using these tactics, with bravery exemplified by a burner account.
    Not all heroes wear capes.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I didn't claim it had any success, mate

    I have pointed out multiple arguments.

    (1) The Developers have dismissed feedback regarding the borrowed power systems in Legion, BfA and SL, despite all of those had very similiar glaring issues.
    (2) Blizzard has always fixed those issues only months later for very contrived reasons, rather than resolve them upfront (disregarding that the apathy it is causing within the playerbase)
    (3) The people who have had been very close to the devs in the form of private forums have spoken out that ever since Legion, their feedback was very often disregarded and multiple issues that have been called out during Beta have ocurred shortly after the System hit live and then had to be resolved.
    (4) Even if you want disregard all of those issues that this stubbornness is causing (and Ion himself admitted to that) by citing "creative reasons", the fact how much effort Blizzard has to put into those systems as far as balance is concerned, concerns that get multiplied due to their artifical friction, cannot possibly be worth the trouble and should effort rather be focused on improving other aspects of the game, rather than attempting to balance a system that cannot be balanced and where it's a given that it lands in the bin next expansion.
    I mean, at leas they are fixing those issues? There are complaints about the core gameplay loop for the entire healer role in FF14 which the devs just plain ignore if they are nut busy indirectly insulting the entire healer base of their game or outright lying to them xDDD

  19. #419
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    I mean, at leas they are fixing those issues? There are complaints about the core gameplay loop for the entire healer role in FF14 which the devs just plain ignore if they are nut busy indirectly insulting the entire healer base of their game or outright lying to them xDDD
    If this is the case for FF, they should really glance in Blizzard's direction to see how can such an attitude poison the product.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    If this is the case for FF, they should really glance in Blizzard's direction to see how can such an attitude poison the product.
    They won't, because the game is stuck in a bubble of validation and enforced positivity, basically living off their good writing team as well as Yoshi-Ps public persona, which lets them get away with all kinds of shit, like an even more exploitative itemstore where you don't have the option to buy everything in it with ingame currency through tokens, refusing to in any shape or form expand on their content instead downsizing it despite constantly growing player numbers and ignoring all kinds of player complaints when it comes to class design, especially when it comes to Dark Knight players and the entire Healer Community.

    And really nobody says anything because people rather gloat at WoWs misfortune while that game still released more serious pve content in an expansion with massive delays which is cut short one patch than FF14 will release in Endwalker because we already know how much content they release because they won't expand on it. At best if the playerbase are lucky they will release 2 instead of one ultimate encounters, but don't bet on it.

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