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  1. #421
    I mean odds are they're only going to select shills to be a part of the council to begin with. They won't accept anyone that's critical of the game in any degree. Don't be surprised by garbage under the illusion of "we hear you players".
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  2. #422
    Not sure, but I hope there's someone who gets them to stop flooding the game with a million mounts every patch. There should only be one model for each mount - we don't need 5 different recolors. It makes mounts even more meaningless than they already are. A mount should be a reward for doing something special and I should know exactly what that is when I see the mount in question.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    Does it though? The shop gets bigger and bigger but we don't seem to be getting more and more content.
    The absolute amount of content we receive is irrelevant though. I am simply saying that with the shop revenue contributing to the development budget we're going to get more content than we'd get without it. As for evidence of the amount they spend on the dev budget, we know that their team is as big now as it has ever been. This in spite of a significant drop in sub numbers over the last decade. That's a pretty strong indication that a lot of shop money is going into development of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Why should transmog with finer detail and higher pixel count only be available on the store besides increasing revenue? What does the consumer get by paying extra for cash shop items? A better game? Last I heard the devs and the people that actually work on the game are having trouble making ends meet in their life. So clearly that money isn't going into their pockets.
    Logic dictates that without the shop, this situation (whatever it actually is) would be a lot worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Also I don't believe this idea that the items you see in the shop are side projects the devs worked on that didn't make it into the game. Pretty convenient that these side project transmog somehow always look far better than what you can earn in-game. If it's a side project why do they look like they had more time spent on them.
    I think I recall from a long time ago that they said that the concept art behind them often came from things that didn't make it into the game. The shop was literally the means of turning those things from concept art into in-game assets.

    Seriously though, this concept of more money from the shop => more money into the dev budget is not that difficult that anyone can claim it's that hard to understand. I think the issue here is just plain stubbornness.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    They won't, because the game is stuck in a bubble of validation and enforced positivity, basically living off their good writing team as well as Yoshi-Ps public persona, which lets them get away with all kinds of shit, like an even more exploitative itemstore where you don't have the option to buy everything in it with ingame currency through tokens, refusing to in any shape or form expand on their content instead downsizing it despite constantly growing player numbers and ignoring all kinds of player complaints when it comes to class design, especially when it comes to Dark Knight players and the entire Healer Community.

    And really nobody says anything because people rather gloat at WoWs misfortune while that game still released more serious pve content in an expansion with massive delays which is cut short one patch than FF14 will release in Endwalker because we already know how much content they release because they won't expand on it. At best if the playerbase are lucky they will release 2 instead of one ultimate encounters, but don't bet on it.
    On the point of the store token or non token really comes down to how you like your exploitation. I would argue non token is more consumer friendly but its not a hill I would die on.

    As for end game... they are two entirely different mmos with entirely different end game formats with a few similarities. I enjoyed FF but I had my fill of it not sure if I will go back for endwalker ( I don't know if it is even out yet). I can still respect it as its own game. I do get different vibes from the development teams though. WoW doesn't really understand its playerbase to any capacity and tends to enrage it then be baffled when it does enrage it.

  5. #425
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    LOL, man. "I'm okay with capitalism... just not the capitalism that I don't like." We truly do live in a society.
    ROFL DUDE THIS AIN'T EVEN ABOUT CAPITALISM.

    Jesus Christ do you EVER have anything of value to add or are you just here to say random shit that has no relevance to the conversation? You certainly do love fighting against points that literally nobody has made, because pretending the person you're addressing has made this awful, one-sided, stupid sounding argument is a whole lot easier than actually addressing the things they said, yeah?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    There is absolutely no way that shop revenue is not contributing to the continued development cost of the game.

    And before you choose to go with your impulse to disagree with that statement, consider this: If WoW got rid of its cash shop entirely, what do think would be more likely?:
    • Bobby's yearly bonus would takes equal knock?
    • He'll protect his bonus (as much as he can) by cutting costs on WoW's development budget?

    I am not going to argue that Bobby isn't benefiting financially from the shop, but rather that he isn't the sole beneficiary. The game almost certainly owes a significant portion of its current development budget to the shop as well.
    Yeah man, because Blizzard was totally having trouble with their development budget before cash shop items existed.

    Oh... wait...
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
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  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    On the point of the store token or non token really comes down to how you like your exploitation. I would argue non token is more consumer friendly but its not a hill I would die on.
    How so? Goldselling happens in all games, including FF14, WoW basically just offers an option for it which doesn't relies on typical goldfarmer practices who often engage in criminal and harmful activities. Does Blizz prophit from it? Yeah. Does their method if goldselling cause harm to unwilling bystanders? No. In fact, it offers plays the option to play the game for free and buy every item in the blizz store for ingame currency.

    As for end game... they are two entirely different mmos with entirely different end game formats with a few similarities. I enjoyed FF but I had my fill of it not sure if I will go back for endwalker ( I don't know if it is even out yet). I can still respect it as its own game. I do get different vibes from the development teams though. WoW doesn't really understand its playerbase to any capacity and tends to enrage it then be baffled when it does enrage it.
    My problem is, that the rising success of the game just does not in the slightest translate into an expanded production circle, which still offers much less content than its next competitor. Also, the vibes from the developers are misleading, they are actually worse than the WoW devs when it comes to react to many player complaints. Complaints about the state of roles like healers or the Dark Knight job exist for years now and are constantly ignored. We have examples of the devs actually not understanding their own game or outright lying. People just ignore it in FF14 because Yoshi-P happens to be charismatic.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    How so? Goldselling happens in all games, including FF14, WoW basically just offers an option for it which doesn't relies on typical goldfarmer practices who often engage in criminal and harmful activities. Does Blizz prophit from it? Yeah. Does their method if goldselling cause harm to unwilling bystanders? No. In fact, it offers plays the option to play the game for free and buy every item in the blizz store for ingame currency.



    My problem is, that the rising success of the game just does not in the slightest translate into an expanded production circle, which still offers much less content than its next competitor. Also, the vibes from the developers are misleading, they are actually worse than the WoW devs when it comes to react to many player complaints. Complaints about the state of roles like healers or the Dark Knight job exist for years now and are constantly ignored. We have examples of the devs actually not understanding their own game or outright lying. People just ignore it in FF14 because Yoshi-P happens to be charismatic.
    Again its a long argument that I don't really feel invested enough to offer a in-depth argument on. Most token sales go to boosters that in turn causes a load of problems in game with blizzards hands off approach.

    I don't honestly believe anyone gets shop items via gold beyond extreme minorities im talking numbers that make mythic raids seem as common as lfr players. It is a system designed to profit off of pay to win by having a middleman to dampen down outrage about it.

    As for FF... its a different style of game so its hard for me to comment. FF is easier then wow at end game to the extent class balance doesn't really matter hence the whole dps healer and... i cant recall specifics about death knights but isnt their big gripe their immunity kills them?

    Both of these dont really matter for the level of difficulty the game offers.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    My problem is, that the rising success of the game just does not in the slightest translate into an expanded production circle, which still offers much less content than its next competitor. Also, the vibes from the developers are misleading, they are actually worse than the WoW devs when it comes to react to many player complaints. Complaints about the state of roles like healers or the Dark Knight job exist for years now and are constantly ignored. We have examples of the devs actually not understanding their own game or outright lying. People just ignore it in FF14 because Yoshi-P happens to be charismatic.
    This happens with everything on the internet and it's fucking exhausting. You either share the opinion of the loudest group, or you get abused into silence. If that's the pro-"corporate" side of the argument, you're a "hater" if you don't agree. If it's the anti-"corporate" side, you're a shill if you don't agree. WoW is corporate, FF14 is the "underdog". Capitalism is the corporate, communism is the underdog. If you've ever watched pro wrestling, WWE is the corporate, AEW is the "underdog" (despite being funded by a billionaire).

    As soon as the balance tips one way or another, it's impossible to have any kind of rational discussion about the subject ever again. Every single facet of the side the hivemind has decided is wrong immediately becomes terrible - people who haven't given a single fuck about lore in their life suddenly criticise the writing team. The CEO of the company is directly responsible for class nerfs you don't like. The guy whose job depends on the quality of the product only cares about one specific part of it. Of course, the total opposite is true of the "good side", as you've identified with YoshiP. Their writers are savants, the gameplay doesn't matter because it's designed perfectly and anyone who doesn't like it is the problem, if you don't like the content they put out its your fault, etc etc.

    The most insidious part of this is people acting like they're heroes of women's rights and workplace happiness because they change their Reddit flair to a blue heart and post about "cubicle crawls", while all the tweets about sexual abuse at SquareEnix get 500 likes at best because they don't line up with the narrative.

  9. #429
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    This happens with everything on the internet and it's fucking exhausting. You either share the opinion of the loudest group, or you get abused into silence. If that's the pro-"corporate" side of the argument, you're a "hater" if you don't agree. If it's the anti-"corporate" side, you're a shill if you don't agree. WoW is corporate, FF14 is the "underdog". Capitalism is the corporate, communism is the underdog. If you've ever watched pro wrestling, WWE is the corporate, AEW is the "underdog" (despite being funded by a billionaire).

    As soon as the balance tips one way or another, it's impossible to have any kind of rational discussion about the subject ever again. Every single facet of the side the hivemind has decided is wrong immediately becomes terrible - people who haven't given a single fuck about lore in their life suddenly criticise the writing team. The CEO of the company is directly responsible for class nerfs you don't like. The guy whose job depends on the quality of the product only cares about one specific part of it. Of course, the total opposite is true of the "good side", as you've identified with YoshiP. Their writers are savants, the gameplay doesn't matter because it's designed perfectly and anyone who doesn't like it is the problem, if you don't like the content they put out its your fault, etc etc.

    The most insidious part of this is people acting like they're heroes of women's rights and workplace happiness because they change their Reddit flair to a blue heart and post about "cubicle crawls", while all the tweets about sexual abuse at SquareEnix get 500 likes at best because they don't line up with the narrative.
    As rants go, this is spot on. Hiveminds are terrible things. There's a lot of people not bothering to think for themselves but doing performative attention-getting. My hope is that Blizzard 1) cares about the Community Council [time will tell] and 2) boots anyone off of it who is letting their thinking be crowd-sourced. The perceived panic that there might be Council members who don't represent elite players and playstyles is sort of amusing.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  10. #430
    There shouldn't be a council, and we shouldn't recognize it. They don't speak for you, they don't represent the game.

    Dangerous.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    ROFL DUDE THIS AIN'T EVEN ABOUT CAPITALISM.

    Jesus Christ do you EVER have anything of value to add or are you just here to say random shit that has no relevance to the conversation? You certainly do love fighting against points that literally nobody has made, because pretending the person you're addressing has made this awful, one-sided, stupid sounding argument is a whole lot easier than actually addressing the things they said, yeah?
    You know this forum has an ignore function, right? If you don't like my posts you don't have to read them.

    And for the record, nothing about my post was a strawman. I'm sorry you dislike being called out on your obvious hypocrisy. You cannot support FFXIV's store while simultaneously shitting on Blizzard's because they're the same fucking thing. Nobody on these forums has any idea how the proceeds from the respective stores are used internally by these companies and it's incredibly, mind-numbingly disingenuous to imply that one is worse than the other simply because a single dev from one game has gone on record to say that the proceeds are used to "make the game better."
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  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yeah man, because Blizzard was totally having trouble with their development budget before cash shop items existed.

    Oh... wait...
    You mean back when they still had 12M+ active subs?

  13. #433
    Bloodsail Admiral froschhure's Avatar
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    with that so said " council" they are trying to control the masses they could not target before. Don't get tricked by this cheap move. Your voice always matters
    love WoWarcraft

  14. #434
    In your mind which is worse, developers that are pro shop mounts or players and influencers put on the council?

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    This happens with everything on the internet and it's fucking exhausting. You either share the opinion of the loudest group, or you get abused into silence. If that's the pro-"corporate" side of the argument, you're a "hater" if you don't agree. If it's the anti-"corporate" side, you're a shill if you don't agree. WoW is corporate, FF14 is the "underdog". Capitalism is the corporate, communism is the underdog. If you've ever watched pro wrestling, WWE is the corporate, AEW is the "underdog" (despite being funded by a billionaire).

    As soon as the balance tips one way or another, it's impossible to have any kind of rational discussion about the subject ever again. Every single facet of the side the hivemind has decided is wrong immediately becomes terrible - people who haven't given a single fuck about lore in their life suddenly criticise the writing team. The CEO of the company is directly responsible for class nerfs you don't like. The guy whose job depends on the quality of the product only cares about one specific part of it. Of course, the total opposite is true of the "good side", as you've identified with YoshiP. Their writers are savants, the gameplay doesn't matter because it's designed perfectly and anyone who doesn't like it is the problem, if you don't like the content they put out its your fault, etc etc.

    The most insidious part of this is people acting like they're heroes of women's rights and workplace happiness because they change their Reddit flair to a blue heart and post about "cubicle crawls", while all the tweets about sexual abuse at SquareEnix get 500 likes at best because they don't line up with the narrative.
    So good.

    You can explain almost all politics in the US right now as basically reverse partisanship/negative partisanship, which is exactly the phenomenon you describe. It becomes impossible to even talk about anything.

    And our lizard brains can't help it.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  16. #436
    Gear with stats could be in the store without it being p2w , it's not like having full 5man dungeon ilvl gear will win against those that dont pay.
    Remember that it is a person you are talking too & not a toilet, just like sane & grown up people do irl you fucking little bitch.

  17. #437
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    im pretty sure this council is just another smokescreen, simple scapegoat to pretend they care about what the community think. This is, in fact, not necessary, at all, but they are doing anyway because provide some sort of imaginary layer above the "normal" feedback.

    My bets is they will handpick some people they know to act like they are the community council, just like they chose what questions they will answer in the Q&A. So yeah, maybe a mount to "tame" then and condition people to be tamed as well

  18. #438
    There really aren't communities, there are individuals. Them treating individuals and opinions as if they are communities are already their first proof they don't listen or care. No youtuber or forum poster, etc, speaks for anyone but themself. If followers happen to agree or like the person, that's their fault.

    Council member will have their own agenda, motivation, business, etc, that they will be considering, which makes them not a good choice and their methods false.

    I happen to hate that the writer isn't considering us fans, customers, players, and keeps going father back to explain everything, when what I love is our smaller stories and our cultures and places to explore.

    Being so directly involved with all this cosmic stuff is ruining the wonder and mystery, and making me not want to log on. That the heartless writer is doing this, is also making me not want to log on.

    If a community or council say they love the lore and cosmic stuff, well, they don't' represent me or speak for me, they represent and speak only for themselves, and then I feel like I'm being asked to leave.
    Last edited by snugg; 2021-11-22 at 07:56 PM.

  19. #439
    They are rather slow with the store I agree.. but as long as they are delivering content for all types of players, they might as well could make some extra income by loading up the store with some items.

    Final Fantasy doesn't skip a heart beat "constantly" pumping store with new items, well at least they have variety of items which to my knowledge players really do enjoy spending money on it. It's a win/win, you don't have to spend money on optional items if you don't want to, but for those who like to expand their fantasy repertoire, it's a good choice to have.

  20. #440
    Apparently council is not just blizz echo chamber, some of these guys go hard:

    https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ty-council/261

    Old content must be kept relevant
    Merging of the Factions
    Community Management, Toxicity and Goldshire
    Old Content Gatekeeping
    FOMO is deeply rooted in modern design
    Class design, borrowed power, balancing and why patches shouldn’t feel like they’re expansions
    The complete neglect of casual and leveler PvP
    Now the question is if blizzard will even read those. Cause i admit, its working better than expected (working as in: it does not only have positive andys).
    Ship has been abandoned.
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