Poll: Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    In the end you will have the flight in Zereth Mortis thanks to the decryption system.

    So, it's looks like flying is going to be added to 9.2 content. It's great news, because Blizzard are going to break that old silly made up "no flying in locations, that aren't connected to main map" restriction. So, they admit, that flying isn't something bad and content can be designed around having it. It also can be sign of long awaited "separate pathfinder for every content patch" system.

    I want to remind you, that flying:
    1) Important factor for casual/alt-friendliness of game. Not all players want ground content to be challenging. Not all players treat going from point A to point B as content. Not all players like treasure hunting. Etc. Some players want to simply do their daily objectives and that's it.
    2) It's great motivation to do things, as flying mounts are great reward. Flying mounts are much more desirable, than ground ones.

    But...

    At the end. Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"? For several xpacks in a row flying is held as hostage in order to force players to do 100% content. It causes bad behavior:
    1) Players feel, that game is incomplete without flying
    2) Players have to rush towards getting flying instead of just enjoying content
    3) Players are forced to do content, they don't like
    4) Players have to stay unsubbed not to spoil their experience in case of time-gating/catch-ups

    So. If flying isn't that bad, Blizzard admit it and it's added at the end, then may be "pathfinders" aren't needed?
    Show me where they admitted that....More than likely you'll need to do the content before you can fly in it. It must be nice to just put words in their mouth to somehow prove yourself right.

    Flying itself is most certainly not healthy for some aspects of the game and as such pathfinders are healthy because they make you interact with those aspects. Even if you design content around flying which is possible, it still devalues any content you design around not flying hence a pathfinder settles both needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    flying should be a go from day 1 here on out in 99% of the content/areas. There is zero reason not to, and to make it more than just a faster travel method and include gameplay with it.
    Saying "there's zero reason not to" doesn't make it true. There's plenty of reasons, you just refuse to accept them.

  2. #62
    I really don't understand how people can honestly think gating flying behind Pathfinder is better for the player than simply buying it with gold when you hit max level. One is instant, the other is dragged out for months. I'm not seeing how the latter benefits me in any way.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Yeah, I doubt the ability to fly had much of an impact on the numbers.

    And I very much agree that flying was a mistake.

    I wish Blizzard would have gone through with their plans for WoD, and not have flying at all for it. The community went Reeeee, and we got Pathfinding instead, as a compromise.
    The community also voted with its feet. You might think flying was a mistake, but a huge number of other player, current and former, do not agree with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Flying killed exploration. Flying killed excitement. Flying killed any sense of danger in the world. Flying makes people consume a whole path worth of content in two weeks.

    Yes, blizzard shot themselves in the foot with adding a detrimental feature just for some sales without considering the longevity of the game. But to be fair, at that time nobody would have thunk WoW would make it to a 20-year anniversary.
    Pretty much nobody is demanding flight from the get-go. Flight once toons hit max level and have done the levelling, seen the zones on foot is how is used to be, and how most pro-flight people want it. That gives you the on-the-ground exploration, gives the devs the space for their on-the-ground questlines, etc.

    As for flight destroying 'exploration', I did more exploration of the EK and Kalimdor in Cata with flight than I'd ever done before. In MoP I spent a lot of time flying round looking at thing, seeing what there was to see.

    And MoP and BC show that you can use flight as a bit of a gate, with content that you need flight to get to. Of course in WoD and onwards you needed flight to get to stuff that you could in theory walk to simply because without flight it took so damned long to fight your way to anywhere.

    And finally - it's blindingly obvious when you get flight that a lot of the zones were designed to look great and flow well with flight, and they often feel better that way than they do on foot, where you can't even see half the landscape and are too busy dodging mobs and fighting other mobs to really admire the view anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeons View Post
    You know this is bullshit since people have preferred flying from the moment it was introduced in TBC. The answer is simple, flying is faster and more convenient so it will always be the preferred method of traveling.
    The original flying wasn't even always faster, but it certainly beat having to make sure you avoided mobs' patrol paths, didn't accidentally go for a swim and dismount, and all that stuff. And getting your epic mount? That really was awesome.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I really don't understand how people can honestly think gating flying behind Pathfinder is better for the player than simply buying it with gold when you hit max level. One is instant, the other is dragged out for months. I'm not seeing how the latter benefits me in any way.
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.
    You think you don't, but you do

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The desire for flying is a symptom of another problem, one of Blizzard's own making:

    Travelling along the ground isn't fun. Not after MoP.

    Starting with WoD, Blizzard's environment designers forgot 10 years of zone design and began designing the layout of their zones to be as inconvenient to navigate on foot as possible. Worse, starting with WoD, the mob density was jacked up, so now you can't travel 10 feet without aggroing some mob. Also, you get dazed. So travelling on foot is now a tremendous pain in the ass. Worse, you are required to travel on foot because the game revolves around doing your world quest chores, and also doing your legendary questline/war campaign/covenant campaign. So you have to do A LOT of travelling on foot and it sucks.

    Flying in WoW isn't fun. If you want an example of a flying mechanic that is fun, look no further than GW2's implementation. No, flying in WoW is tolerable, and preferable to the aggravating experience that is travelling on the ground.
    I mean this is all a related philosophy that they're worried about us doing things too quickly so they are throwing up crap roadblocks everywhere they can to slow us down.

    World quests are too easy? I know, let's make it a pain in the ass to get there! Let's put timers on mob spawns (or <shudders>, turtle spawns) so you have to stand there waiting before you oneshot something!
    Controversy about whether we should have flying? I know, let's make it a grind, maybe people will stay subbed longer?

    They don't have confidence in their ability to deliver a fun game so they are using every trick in the book to keep us busy and hope we won't notice. It worked for a few expansions, and somehow people didn't even notice how bad Legion was, but now it's all crashing down.

    And of course they shouldn't have confidence. The world content is absurd. It's ridiculously dumb.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.
    Some Blizzard employees or ex-employees have expressed the opinion that it was a mistake. That is not an admission, and nor was it necessarily a universal opinion amongst Blizzard's devs at the time. We have no idea what the vast majority of them felt then or now.

  7. #67
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    I said no but I would be okay with it if it were locked behind reaching max with one character and perhaps and easy enough to complete pathfinder achievement that could be accomplished within the first patch. pretty much the way it used to work.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.
    It's been in the game for 14 years. 'Flying was a mistake' is not a valid response to criticisms of Pathfinder.

  9. #69
    Yes. It's a good compromise, and i hope they keep it that way. Gives the world a sense of size, and danger, instead of the eventual fly A to B and ignore everything in between, like the world doesn't matter.

  10. #70
    I think using the term "healthy" is kind of...out of place.

    I think time gating flying is unnecessary though.

    This is one of those things that make me roll my eyes, when Blizzard says things like, "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying (meaning, don't fuck with it, and don't take it away), yet...they still continue to fuck with it, restrict it, and take it away.
    Last edited by ablib; 2021-11-13 at 12:28 AM.

  11. #71
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Flying was the game's biggest mistake from the get go. They surely didn't think of the long term implications of this failure.
    Flying was not a problem for four WoW expansions. It wasn't until the tail end of MoP when people were getting bored with SoO that people started frothing at the mouth for no flying.

    Flying was a huge selling point for BC. People loved it. Flying was necessary to reach max level in WotLK and they designed multiple zones around it. People loved it. When they announced flying for old world zones in Cata at Blizzcon, the audience exploded in cheering. And MoP really picked up in pace after you unlocked flying at max level.


    No, flying is not and has never been a problem. No compelling, continent-wide content predicated upon "experiencing the ground" exists in WoW, and never has existed. They didn't get it right in WoD, they didn't get it right in Legion, they didn't get it right in BFA, and they didn't get it right in Shadowlands. Maybe it's just not something that can be done.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2021-11-13 at 12:34 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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  12. #72
    I don't really have a problem with it, but FFXIV method would be a lot better.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Show me where they admitted that....More than likely you'll need to do the content before you can fly in it. It must be nice to just put words in their mouth to somehow prove yourself right.

    Flying itself is most certainly not healthy for some aspects of the game and as such pathfinders are healthy because they make you interact with those aspects. Even if you design content around flying which is possible, it still devalues any content you design around not flying hence a pathfinder settles both needs.

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    Saying "there's zero reason not to" doesn't make it true. There's plenty of reasons, you just refuse to accept them.
    because they are bogus reasons.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying
    Let's not pretend there isn't also a huge "anti-flying" sentiment, which is why they settled with this compromise.

    I absolutely abhor flying, and feel it completely removes any sense of size and danger to the world, making the vast majority of the designed and built world, obsolete. Hence, i like this compromise... you enjoy the release of new content without flying, really in it, and then, a while later, you can just fly from A to B and ignore everything in between to your hearts content.

    But again, sure, keep pretending its "unanimous" and they ignored all feedback.

  15. #75
    something i learned a lot about mmo design from playing ff14 is that a lot of the controversial pieces of wow don't have to be. flying in ff14 is great. it's because it's not locked behind a few months long grind. in each zone you gather wind current nodes to learn how to fly there. most of them you get just by exploring and the rest come from completing that zones main story quests. you could get flying in a zone within a day, easy. the geography design is also a lot better. there are a zone called azys lla (ah-zis La) where most of the zone can't be explored without flying.

    i've been vocal against lfr for years but i've come to realize lfr isn't the issue. it's a combination of the general player base refusing to improve and the high end raiding having absolutely nothing that people can aspire to. overall, the controversial parts of wow are because of the players AND bad game design. i always knew that the player base just had a severe lack of seeking to improve but it's hurt even more by the fact that people are scared to speak up about not knowing something. the two usual responses are google it or shut up. i'm guilty of saying google it myself. if blizz wants wow to make a comeback, they need to vastly improve the quality of their game, much more harshly police bad behavior (no, leaving a m+ group isn't bad behavior. i mean like racism, sexism, stalking, and harassment), and put tools in game that players can use to better themselves.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Flying was not a problem for four WoW expansions. It wasn't until the tail end of MoP when people were getting bored with SoO that people started frothing at the mouth for no flying.

    Flying was a huge selling point for BC. People loved it. Flying was necessary to reach max level in WotLK and they designed multiple zones around it. People loved it. When they announced flying for old world zones in Cata at Blizzcon, the audience exploded in cheering. And MoP really picked up in pace after you unlocked flying at max level.


    No, flying is not and has never been a problem. No compelling, continent-wide content predicated upon "experiencing the ground" exists in WoW, and never has existed. They didn't get it right in WoD, they didn't get it right in Legion, they didn't get it right in BFA, and they didn't get it right in Shadowlands. Maybe it's just not something that can be done.
    Just because people loved it when it was released in BC doesn't somehow support your premise of it not being a problem. People(myself included) liked the idea until we actually saw the impact it had on the game. Hell even BC had anti flying mechanics(the kaliri in Skettis for example) that should have been persistent throughout the entire world. Instead they became extremely rare and even the one in Mechagon was a joke.

    Nothing you said even remotely supported your opinion that flying isn't/wasn't a problem and instead you decided to deride those who believe it by calling them frothing at the mouth.

    The actual reasons it is a problem have been explained ad nauseum, so if you want to declare it isn't a problem you might actually need to ....you know...refute those things. That's how making an argument works. It isn't simply done by making statements that have nothing to do with it and then spewing vitriol at the other opinion holders.

  17. #77
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    I'm never going to allow myself to pour my time into another mmo but ff14 really sounds great.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I think using the term "healthy" is kind of...out of place.

    I think time gating flying is unnecessary though.

    This is one of those things that make me roll my eyes, when Blizzard says things like, "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying (meaning, don't fuck with it, and don't take it away), yet...they still continue to fuck with it, restrict it, and take it away.
    You have to be delusional to think pro flying is even remotely unanimous much less anywhere far from 50/50 which you apparently do.

  19. #79
    I've said this in other flying threads and I'll say it again now. Flying wasn't the issue. Blizzards inability or lack of desire to develop any sort of meaningful interaction with it was.

  20. #80
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because people loved it when it was released in BC doesn't somehow support your premise of it not being a problem. People(myself included) liked the idea until we actually saw the impact it had on the game. Hell even BC had anti flying mechanics(the kaliri in Skettis for example) that should have been persistent throughout the entire world. Instead they became extremely rare and even the one in Mechagon was a joke.

    Nothing you said even remotely supported your opinion that flying isn't/wasn't a problem and instead you decided to deride those who believe it by calling them frothing at the mouth.

    The actual reasons it is a problem have been explained ad nauseum, so if you want to declare it isn't a problem you might actually need to ....you know...refute those things. That's how making an argument works. It isn't simply done by making statements that have nothing to do with it and then spewing vitriol at the other opinion holders.
    The "problems with flying" are all vague and feely-feely that aren't borne out by any evidence, as per the community's reception to the expansions that featured flying versus those that didn't.

    My examples of expansions that worked with flying:

    Burning Crusade
    Wrath of the Lich King
    Mists of Pandaria

    Your examples of expansions that... worked... without flying:

    WoD?
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

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