Poll: Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

Page 4 of 23 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
5
6
14
... LastLast
  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I really don't understand how people can honestly think gating flying behind Pathfinder is better for the player than simply buying it with gold when you hit max level. One is instant, the other is dragged out for months. I'm not seeing how the latter benefits me in any way.
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The desire for flying is a symptom of another problem, one of Blizzard's own making:

    Travelling along the ground isn't fun. Not after MoP.

    Starting with WoD, Blizzard's environment designers forgot 10 years of zone design and began designing the layout of their zones to be as inconvenient to navigate on foot as possible. Worse, starting with WoD, the mob density was jacked up, so now you can't travel 10 feet without aggroing some mob. Also, you get dazed. So travelling on foot is now a tremendous pain in the ass. Worse, you are required to travel on foot because the game revolves around doing your world quest chores, and also doing your legendary questline/war campaign/covenant campaign. So you have to do A LOT of travelling on foot and it sucks.

    Flying in WoW isn't fun. If you want an example of a flying mechanic that is fun, look no further than GW2's implementation. No, flying in WoW is tolerable, and preferable to the aggravating experience that is travelling on the ground.
    I mean this is all a related philosophy that they're worried about us doing things too quickly so they are throwing up crap roadblocks everywhere they can to slow us down.

    World quests are too easy? I know, let's make it a pain in the ass to get there! Let's put timers on mob spawns (or <shudders>, turtle spawns) so you have to stand there waiting before you oneshot something!
    Controversy about whether we should have flying? I know, let's make it a grind, maybe people will stay subbed longer?

    They don't have confidence in their ability to deliver a fun game so they are using every trick in the book to keep us busy and hope we won't notice. It worked for a few expansions, and somehow people didn't even notice how bad Legion was, but now it's all crashing down.

    And of course they shouldn't have confidence. The world content is absurd. It's ridiculously dumb.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.
    Some Blizzard employees or ex-employees have expressed the opinion that it was a mistake. That is not an admission, and nor was it necessarily a universal opinion amongst Blizzard's devs at the time. We have no idea what the vast majority of them felt then or now.

  4. #64
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    [A] Azuremyst <US>
    Posts
    690
    I said no but I would be okay with it if it were locked behind reaching max with one character and perhaps and easy enough to complete pathfinder achievement that could be accomplished within the first patch. pretty much the way it used to work.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWorkingTitle View Post
    Because you're not meant to have it. It was a mistake introducing it in TBC. They have admitted this. Since Pandora won't go back in the box, they make it so that you can have flying once that content is irrelevant and old. You get it, only it's pointless by the time you do. Perfect compromise for those that think it shouldn't even be in the game.
    It's been in the game for 14 years. 'Flying was a mistake' is not a valid response to criticisms of Pathfinder.

  6. #66
    Yes. It's a good compromise, and i hope they keep it that way. Gives the world a sense of size, and danger, instead of the eventual fly A to B and ignore everything in between, like the world doesn't matter.

  7. #67
    I think using the term "healthy" is kind of...out of place.

    I think time gating flying is unnecessary though.

    This is one of those things that make me roll my eyes, when Blizzard says things like, "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying (meaning, don't fuck with it, and don't take it away), yet...they still continue to fuck with it, restrict it, and take it away.
    Last edited by ablib; 2021-11-13 at 12:28 AM.

  8. #68
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    phasing...
    Posts
    25,555
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Flying was the game's biggest mistake from the get go. They surely didn't think of the long term implications of this failure.
    Flying was not a problem for four WoW expansions. It wasn't until the tail end of MoP when people were getting bored with SoO that people started frothing at the mouth for no flying.

    Flying was a huge selling point for BC. People loved it. Flying was necessary to reach max level in WotLK and they designed multiple zones around it. People loved it. When they announced flying for old world zones in Cata at Blizzcon, the audience exploded in cheering. And MoP really picked up in pace after you unlocked flying at max level.


    No, flying is not and has never been a problem. No compelling, continent-wide content predicated upon "experiencing the ground" exists in WoW, and never has existed. They didn't get it right in WoD, they didn't get it right in Legion, they didn't get it right in BFA, and they didn't get it right in Shadowlands. Maybe it's just not something that can be done.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2021-11-13 at 12:34 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  9. #69
    I don't really have a problem with it, but FFXIV method would be a lot better.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Show me where they admitted that....More than likely you'll need to do the content before you can fly in it. It must be nice to just put words in their mouth to somehow prove yourself right.

    Flying itself is most certainly not healthy for some aspects of the game and as such pathfinders are healthy because they make you interact with those aspects. Even if you design content around flying which is possible, it still devalues any content you design around not flying hence a pathfinder settles both needs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Saying "there's zero reason not to" doesn't make it true. There's plenty of reasons, you just refuse to accept them.
    because they are bogus reasons.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying
    Let's not pretend there isn't also a huge "anti-flying" sentiment, which is why they settled with this compromise.

    I absolutely abhor flying, and feel it completely removes any sense of size and danger to the world, making the vast majority of the designed and built world, obsolete. Hence, i like this compromise... you enjoy the release of new content without flying, really in it, and then, a while later, you can just fly from A to B and ignore everything in between to your hearts content.

    But again, sure, keep pretending its "unanimous" and they ignored all feedback.

  12. #72
    something i learned a lot about mmo design from playing ff14 is that a lot of the controversial pieces of wow don't have to be. flying in ff14 is great. it's because it's not locked behind a few months long grind. in each zone you gather wind current nodes to learn how to fly there. most of them you get just by exploring and the rest come from completing that zones main story quests. you could get flying in a zone within a day, easy. the geography design is also a lot better. there are a zone called azys lla (ah-zis La) where most of the zone can't be explored without flying.

    i've been vocal against lfr for years but i've come to realize lfr isn't the issue. it's a combination of the general player base refusing to improve and the high end raiding having absolutely nothing that people can aspire to. overall, the controversial parts of wow are because of the players AND bad game design. i always knew that the player base just had a severe lack of seeking to improve but it's hurt even more by the fact that people are scared to speak up about not knowing something. the two usual responses are google it or shut up. i'm guilty of saying google it myself. if blizz wants wow to make a comeback, they need to vastly improve the quality of their game, much more harshly police bad behavior (no, leaving a m+ group isn't bad behavior. i mean like racism, sexism, stalking, and harassment), and put tools in game that players can use to better themselves.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Flying was not a problem for four WoW expansions. It wasn't until the tail end of MoP when people were getting bored with SoO that people started frothing at the mouth for no flying.

    Flying was a huge selling point for BC. People loved it. Flying was necessary to reach max level in WotLK and they designed multiple zones around it. People loved it. When they announced flying for old world zones in Cata at Blizzcon, the audience exploded in cheering. And MoP really picked up in pace after you unlocked flying at max level.


    No, flying is not and has never been a problem. No compelling, continent-wide content predicated upon "experiencing the ground" exists in WoW, and never has existed. They didn't get it right in WoD, they didn't get it right in Legion, they didn't get it right in BFA, and they didn't get it right in Shadowlands. Maybe it's just not something that can be done.
    Just because people loved it when it was released in BC doesn't somehow support your premise of it not being a problem. People(myself included) liked the idea until we actually saw the impact it had on the game. Hell even BC had anti flying mechanics(the kaliri in Skettis for example) that should have been persistent throughout the entire world. Instead they became extremely rare and even the one in Mechagon was a joke.

    Nothing you said even remotely supported your opinion that flying isn't/wasn't a problem and instead you decided to deride those who believe it by calling them frothing at the mouth.

    The actual reasons it is a problem have been explained ad nauseum, so if you want to declare it isn't a problem you might actually need to ....you know...refute those things. That's how making an argument works. It isn't simply done by making statements that have nothing to do with it and then spewing vitriol at the other opinion holders.

  14. #74
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Chicago Illinois.
    Posts
    7,577
    I'm never going to allow myself to pour my time into another mmo but ff14 really sounds great.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I think using the term "healthy" is kind of...out of place.

    I think time gating flying is unnecessary though.

    This is one of those things that make me roll my eyes, when Blizzard says things like, "we took feedback seriously" re: the latest patch. There probably hasn't been a system or feature in the game, that has been more clear on the feedback, and largely unanimous as flying (meaning, don't fuck with it, and don't take it away), yet...they still continue to fuck with it, restrict it, and take it away.
    You have to be delusional to think pro flying is even remotely unanimous much less anywhere far from 50/50 which you apparently do.

  16. #76
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    phasing...
    Posts
    25,555
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Just because people loved it when it was released in BC doesn't somehow support your premise of it not being a problem. People(myself included) liked the idea until we actually saw the impact it had on the game. Hell even BC had anti flying mechanics(the kaliri in Skettis for example) that should have been persistent throughout the entire world. Instead they became extremely rare and even the one in Mechagon was a joke.

    Nothing you said even remotely supported your opinion that flying isn't/wasn't a problem and instead you decided to deride those who believe it by calling them frothing at the mouth.

    The actual reasons it is a problem have been explained ad nauseum, so if you want to declare it isn't a problem you might actually need to ....you know...refute those things. That's how making an argument works. It isn't simply done by making statements that have nothing to do with it and then spewing vitriol at the other opinion holders.
    The "problems with flying" are all vague and feely-feely that aren't borne out by any evidence, as per the community's reception to the expansions that featured flying versus those that didn't.

    My examples of expansions that worked with flying:

    Burning Crusade
    Wrath of the Lich King
    Mists of Pandaria

    Your examples of expansions that... worked... without flying:

    WoD?
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  17. #77
    Epic! Pakheth's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    The cold hell known as Norway
    Posts
    1,738
    I must admit I enjoyed not flying immediately in Legion due to how fun it was to move around zones like Stormheim with the chain caster thingy and floating/slowfall toys. It made for creative exploration. Not to mention Suramar.

    Buuuut. I do think they used way too long to introduce flying again. I rather we had a lengthy questchain that could be completed in the first patch that require us to explore the map and perhaps climb the highest peak or create some device that allows us to safely take to the air ala Cold Weather flying. Just be creative with it. I don't want Cata flying, nor WoD flying, but flying at max level not too long after launch is nice to me.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    Flying killed exploration. Flying killed excitement. Flying killed any sense of danger in the world. Flying makes people consume a whole path worth of content in two weeks.
    I really don't understand this.

    Flying killed exploration? Maybe. But sometime, the design of the zones makes it annoying to navigate. At which point it is frustration, not excitement. Besides, once the zones has been explored, what other exploration exist beyond that. Exploration can only happen once. Once it is explored, it is done.

    Flying killed excitement. I admit I do not understand what you are referring to here.

    Flying killed any sense of danger. Maybe. Sometime. Flying in the past has been available only at max level. By which time, all mobs in the zones are either below or equal level. Except for Elite mobs but even then, after a few gear upgrades, they too are of no danger.

    PvP? Maybe. How many people enable their flag during levelling or playing? I do not know. But judging from some comments in the past, people use the PvP as a exploit when their factions is an advantage.

    Besides, flying optional. If people likes to explore, have excitement, a sense of danger. Then just do not fly.

    What am I missing?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Show me where they admitted that....More than likely you'll need to do the content before you can fly in it. It must be nice to just put words in their mouth to somehow prove yourself right.

    Flying itself is most certainly not healthy for some aspects of the game and as such pathfinders are healthy because they make you interact with those aspects. Even if you design content around flying which is possible, it still devalues any content you design around not flying hence a pathfinder settles both needs.
    I wouldn't need flying, if these aspects wouldn't be designed so badly. For example. What is core purpose of making locations so overcrowded, that riding through them becomes so annoying? It's simple question. At the end gameplay should be fun. You should want to play this game. When you're, let's say, at work, you should think about coming home, logging into game and playing it. So, may be it's just me, but I can't imagine, how such content can be fun, so I would want to play it. It's annoying and tedious. This is what I call "challenge for the sake of challenge".

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  20. #80
    Nope. It's shit and the game was perfectly fine in BC-MoP where it wasn't gated by anything other than gold and level.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •