Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[Varitok]

Maybe they could move it up a little from where they do now, but what I DO NOT WANT is flying actually at release of a new expansion. It was crappy, and horribly immersion breaking to fight your way in on a quest, just to watch two guys land on the boss from the air, kill him and take off, leaving you standing there with your thumb up your ass. (Cata, if you don't recognize what I'm talking about.)

So, while I'm all good with making it simpler, I do not want automatic flying at release of a new area or expansion.

You know what is immersion breaking? Everyone else getting to fly around while I sit my ass on the ground because apparently the air just hits different when it comes to my mounts.

Jesus, just let people fly with no barriers or massive gold sinks. It really isn't that hard to understand or get.

If the game is fun, it won't matter what mode of transportation you use. It worked that way for years before we had to 'compromise' with the time played metric.

[threads]

blizzard's obsession with gating flying so hard is stupid and outdated. do like ff14 and make it ground mount during leveling but flying when you hit max level.

[WowIsDead64]

I say it again, that devs pretend, that Wow is some sort of Metroidvania. It's game, that is about exploration, solving navigation puzzles, finding treasures/secrets and where killing mobs is some sort punishment for wrong navigation. Plus mobs usually drop some sort of currency, that is used to upgrade things (such as Geo in Hollow Knight), so overall players actually WANT to kill mobs, because they would need to grind that currency anyway to buy something (like amulets in Hollow Knight). Problem is - Metroidvania is ONE TIME GAME. Exploration is great, but once you know all secrets, you can't forget them, so the most interesting exploration part of game dies. Only thing, that can keep you playing it - is time running. And this thing isn't for everybody. And Wow is about LONG TERM GRINDS. It's about things you do on daily basis. Things, you do again, again and again. Game just can't be as fresh after one month, as at day one. And don't even talk about 6 months or year. Yeah, for one player, who plays one character for that 6 or 12 months it may not be big problem. Especially if he does high level content, such as Mythic raids, M+ or rated PVP. He has enough overgear to one-shot everything, so he can complete ignore it. But what about new players, who join lately? I guess, WotLK was so popular, because it was friendly to new players, joining at any moment during xpacks life span. WHAT ABOUT ALTS? It really seems like current Blizzard team hates alts for some reasons and try to prevent players from playing them.

[Amarys]

then charging through mobs or players as a warrior should knock them down... it would be impossible for any normal mob to live against a fire mage because their bodies would just combust... physics don't work in games nor a lot of movies...

Haven't you played any newer games? Collision with mobs is absolutely a thing and inertia and physics too when in a vehicle.

[Sansnom]

Cause even if the carpet is magic, the user would still have to abide by those laws.. it goes from full speed to zero instantly or crashes into a tree, the user would still keep moving cause of inertia.

This and casting in WoW is just a pet peeve of mine. I don't like how mounts behave in general(like ground mounts should not be able to turn 180 degrees instantly either or come to a full stop instantly) and how, when casting you put away your weapons.

I rather not mix real world with fantasy world. If we are going to that, then it is a whole can of worms. More like a barrel. Like how I can access all my mounts and pull them them when I want. Think about it. Where do people store their Mammoths, Drakes and other oversize mounts when not using them.

It doesn't make sense. But it was never meant to.

You could argue that some elements like inertia could be implemented but then each mounts would be different, have different speed, different acceleration etc.

[Azerox]

Blizzard is atm like "hmm how can we make it so that we milk the most out of montly sub?" instead of "hmmm how can we make quality content so people keep playing?".

[Mask]

Where is the "No, the game shouldn't have flying at all" option?

[Amarys]

I rather not mix real world with fantasy world. If we are going to that, then it is a whole can of worms. More like a barrel. Like how I can access all my mounts and pull them them when I want. Think about it. Where do people store their Mammoths, Drakes and other oversize mounts when not using them.

It doesn't make sense. But it was never meant to.

You could argue that some elements like inertia could be implemented but then each mounts would be different, have different speed, different acceleration etc.

Well this is the first time I've seen "but this is a fantasy world with magic" used to justify outdated, lazy game design. Collision and physics are part of nearly every modern game with any kind of budget.

Flying was never meant to be a thing either and they had to redesign every Classic zone when they implemented it. I just think that the TBC implementation needs to be removed completely and then if they want to put it back, redesign it so it so it would be something more than swimming in air with a speed hack.

[WowIsDead64]

Well this is the first time I've seen "but this is a fantasy world with magic" used to justify outdated, lazy game design. Collision and physics are part of nearly every modern game with any kind of budget.

Flying was never meant to be a thing either and they had to redesign every Classic zone when they implemented it. I just think that the TBC implementation needs to be removed completely and then if they want to put it back, redesign it so it so it would be something more than swimming in air with a speed hack.

They had quests in Cata, where they tried to show, that they tried to make flying with physics and flying combat, but failed. Problem is - I guess, nobody in Blizzard doesn't even have a clue, what gliding is. When flying mount doesn't flap it's wings - it drops like a rock.

[Hellobolis]

it's better if zones are designed with flying in mind from the ground up.

but ofc, designed with flying in mind can (and arguably should) mean it has areas with anti air defenses and the like, which perhaps you can get around through progress in the zone.

so then you basically have 4 options:
-a zone where you just fly over everything and nothing matters.
-time gated flying so you do get to know the zone, but the flying is no hassle when you get it.
-very annoying or very lethal air defenses like weve seen in the past, that eventually you can maybe remove.
-pointless air defenses like the one in mechagon that are just a minor invoncenience.

call me crazy but none of those options strike me as ideal, and coming up with new flying based mechanics doesn't seem to be easy either.

i did kinda like that feather thing we had in WoD though, or the jetpacks in mechagon.

[PsychoSe7eN]

Yes. Flying shouldn't even be in the game. They've admitted as such. However, this compromise is fine. After the content is completed and mostly irrelevant, then you can have flying for your alts or whatever.

So you are against player choice. You like to be told how to play the game. You despise thinking for yourself playing Wow. Ok, Gotcha!

Firstly, the devs not wanting flying means shit. The fact that you think the devs actually think these days is ignorance on your part. The devs have no credibility.

Secondly, this is an MMO. Mmo games should provide player choice. Not to be told what to do or how to play the game.

[dewd]

who even cares anymore. its not like theres anything to do in the world to be flying to anyway

[Sansnom]

Well this is the first time I've seen "but this is a fantasy world with magic" used to justify outdated, lazy game design. Collision and physics are part of nearly every modern game with any kind of budget.

And this is not the first time I head "Lazy game design" when someone disagree with some feature, or lack of, in the game. Yes. WoW has outdated game design because its an outdated game.

Physics is fine when it forms part of the game play. Mounts does not have any form of game play. At least from my perspective. If there are any gameplay element involving mounts, I must have missed it. So what improvements does having physics would make in the game? Explosions? Flying bodies? Flying debris?

[Biomega]

"We don't want people to fly because it impacts world PvP" - you have Warmode, just make flying not work there. Oh, nobody will choose Warmode then? Well looks to me like your real problem is that people don't really want to do world PvP.

"We don't want people to fly because it makes people appreciate the world less" - so you designed a game where people want above all else to just be done with things and not pay attention to anything except their objective? Ever thought of, you know, not designing it like that? Make things fun so people WANT to see them, rather than making things annoying and then disabling flying so people HAVE to see them?

[WowIsDead64]

"We don't want people to fly because it impacts world PvP" - you have Warmode, just make flying not work there. Oh, nobody will choose Warmode then? Well looks to me like your real problem is that people don't really want to do world PvP.

"We don't want people to fly because it makes people appreciate the world less" - so you designed a game where people want above all else to just be done with things and not pay attention to anything except their objective? Ever thought of, you know, not designing it like that? Make things fun so people WANT to see them, rather than making things annoying and then disabling flying so people HAVE to see them?

Yeah, world PVP has never been viable argument, because around half of playerbase played on "Normal" servers and plays with WarMode off now. World PVP is simply unfair. It's not BG, where it's, let's say, fair 10x10. It's about gankers, intentionally seeking for weak targets and avoiding strong ones. It's the most toxic and anti-social thing in whole game. Because players' reason for doing it - is getting fun at expense of other players' suffering. Massive fights, Blizzard constantly refer to, that grow from 1 vs 1 via asking friends to help - are utopia.

And overall adding artificial "challenge" (I don't want to list all bad game design decisions again) to world and then forcing it via no flying, i.e. intentionally making locations with annoying design, like Revendreth, Maw and Korthia - is the worst idea, Blizzard could have. Outdoor content should be content for casual players - not content, where Mythic guys can hang during gaps between their raids/keys. And content for casual players should be fun/relaxing/meditative/chilling. Not challenging. Another mistake - is broken scaling due to big gap between new player/alt and player, having full borrowed power progress. Content has too steep progression curve due to it. This means content is too hard at the beginning, but once player gets enough power for comfortable gameplay - this content become irrelevant for him, so player has to always suffer from exceeding difficulty level. Not all players can handle it. For example I can't. I just couldn't handle non-stop mob respawning on fresh character in 190 gear. Some players would say - suffer from it for several days/week and you'll be ok. Yeah. May be in case of playing just one character I would be ok. But I don't want to pay for game, where I must always stumble upon some design problems. I just want to play game and that's it.

Again. This guys do hardcore content and get BIS rewards from there. It's so bad, when they start complaining, that outdoor content is way too easy and trivial for them. This content isn't intended for them in a first place. And the worst thing, that could happen - Blizzard actually listening to them and tuning content according to their demands.

[shise]

I don't think flying mounts were a mistake. If flying mounts weren't added, WoW wouldn't have grown as big as it did reaching 12 million subscribers. The fantasy of being able to fly through a fantastical world on a dragon or a gryphon was absolutely a selling point that gave WoW mass appeal and a leg up over the competition. If Warhammer AoR released in 2008 with flying mounts (and they were advertised), that could have Warhammer a much larger population and have lasted longer. Ofcourse, Warhammer had a combination of things going against it that ultimately led to its demise, just as how flying was just one of many things going for WoW that made it an unprecedented success.



This image is very underrated. It got people interested in WoW. And if you walked into Walmart, and noticed that green box for that World of Warcraft game that everyone was talking about, and opened the cover, you would see this:





No other game at the time promised that.

I think people have forgotten that being able to play as an angel and fly was the core selling point of Aion, which was also huge at the time of its release. The idea of flying is nothing to scoff at.

And that is why you do not give flying from the start.

When you sell something like this, you don´t want to grant access to it right away. The best practise is (ironically) Shadowlands flying. Where we got it with 0 effort after a patch.

Or else, the best system all in all was BC, where we had 2 flying skills and it did cost a decent effort to get them. But that would be hard to get back unless they squish gold hard.

- - - Updated - - -

The desire for flying is a symptom of another problem, one of Blizzard's own making:

Travelling along the ground isn't fun. Not after MoP.

Starting with WoD, Blizzard's environment designers forgot 10 years of zone design and began designing the layout of their zones to be as inconvenient to navigate on foot as possible. Worse, starting with WoD, the mob density was jacked up, so now you can't travel 10 feet without aggroing some mob. Also, you get dazed. So travelling on foot is now a tremendous pain in the ass. Worse, you are required to travel on foot because the game revolves around doing your world quest chores, and also doing your legendary questline/war campaign/covenant campaign. So you have to do A LOT of travelling on foot and it sucks.

Flying in WoW isn't fun. If you want an example of a flying mechanic that is fun, look no further than GW2's implementation. No, flying in WoW is tolerable, and preferable to the aggravating experience that is travelling on the ground.

All your listed "negative" points are actually positive. Take BfA as an example. Incredibly hard to navigate, but that makes it amazing. We do not want flat areas like in FF14 or early WoW times, where you could set auto run and do something else in the mean time, with the ocasional "wops a tree", "wops a bear".

[PsychoSe7eN]

All your listed "negative" points are actually positive. Take BfA as an example. Incredibly hard to navigate, but that makes it amazing. We do not want flat areas like in FF14 or early WoW times, where you could set auto run and do something else in the mean time, with the ocasional "wops a tree", "wops a bear".

That is nothing more than your opinion. And it stops there. Your statement is completely subjective. If you wish to play Walk of Warcraft, be my guest. But your play preferences should in no way affect how others want to play. This is an MMO, not a communist fantasy simulator.

A lot of players including myself not only disagree with you, but it's definitely a hindrance to our fun with the game. I love flying. I hate being grounded because Blizz is lazy and has a hard on for timegating. All it does is prove their ignorance and their inability to understand what the players not only had for years, but love.

[WowIsDead64]

I personally don't blame Blizzard for not making separate content for everybody, because they can't do it. But if they can't do it, then they should take another approach - to make content as flexible, as possible. Overall whole no flying thing revolves around some players being jealous about others' playstyles and Blizzard, shifting too much towards so called "competitive" design. I.e. that "Other player doesn't want to take hard way, when we compete for pointless leveling quest mob - this offends me" and Blizzard catering to them. What are solutions of this problem? Implement some sort of "hard mode" for players, who want challenge. Give them some achievements for doing it. But make it 100% optional. But the biggest problem here - is seems, that Blizzard want players to play THE SAME game. Yeah. We have 4 raid difficulties, 4+ dungeon difficulties. But all of a sudden there should be only one outdoor with only one difficulty, that is shared between all players. I don't think, that it's healthy solution.

- - - Updated - - -

All your listed "negative" points are actually positive. Take BfA as an example. Incredibly hard to navigate, but that makes it amazing. We do not want flat areas like in FF14 or early WoW times, where you could set auto run and do something else in the mean time, with the ocasional "wops a tree", "wops a bear".

Yeah. That's, what we are talking about. Not all players think, that hard = fun.

[Beefhammer]

So you are against player choice. You like to be told how to play the game. You despise thinking for yourself playing Wow. Ok, Gotcha!

Firstly, the devs not wanting flying means shit. The fact that you think the devs actually think these days is ignorance on your part. The devs have no credibility.

Secondly, this is an MMO. Mmo games should provide player choice. Not to be told what to do or how to play the game.

Every game has a der of rules to be followed. Do you complain that only certain ? blocks in SMB have power-ups? I'd like to have a permanent invincibility star, but I'm only allowed to use them when I find them.

This is no different. They laid out valid reasons why they want you to play through the campaign on the ground.

[Beefhammer]

There is no point in gating flying because there is no interesting ground play.

This is not old wow where getting dazed and dismounted can even potentially kill you. Like its just an annoyance

As for "the story needs to experience from the ground" there is already a solution to that in other games

Opinion. Blizzard sets the rules.