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  1. #1
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Shadowlands feels like fan fiction written to an already completed story.

    Does anyone else feel this way? Its disconnected and our sole connection is the few characters that tagged along and the cryptic connections to old lore that we never knew existed.

    What is worse is that BFA was used to deconstruct and wrap up whatever loose ends we may have had to make this atrocity happen.
    That's what makes me sad the most I think. Shadowlands we can all collectively forget it happened but BFA? You can't unring those bells.

  2. #2
    Obviously.

    It would have been better if N'Zoth won at the end of BfA and used his new powers to resurrect the other Old Gods, bind them to his will, then revive the Black Empire on Azeroth.

    Then 9.0 could have been the Black Empire expansion people wanted since at the very least end of Cataclysm, and could have taken place either in a new continent with massive Old God influence that could have been of interest to N'Zoth (like the Dragon Isles, which were also set-up in BfA with dialogue from Wrathion's agents, and the return of Wrathion for 8.3), or in a twisted, Old God-ified version of some zones of Azeroth (basically the Visions of N'Zoth but expanded).

    Throwing N'Zoth under the bus for Bob the Janitor was foolish.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-11-12 at 02:49 PM.

  3. #3
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Honestly, all of WoW has felt this way since MoP ended. Even Legion's story wasn't actually that good. WoD, Legion, BfA, & SL feel like a completely different story, in a completely different franchise that have Warcraft characters grafted on to the top.

    Perhaps there are some people who looked at Maldraxxus and thought "Oh, so that's where the Scourge got that from!" On my end it just came across like a cheap way to do callbacks, while severely undermining & devaluing prior lore.

    Not a fan!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Obviously.

    It would have been better if N'Zoth won at the end of BfA and used his new powers to resurrect the other Old Gods, bind them to his will, then revive the Black Empire on Azeroth.

    Then 9.0 could have been the Black Empire expansion people wanted since at the very least end of Cataclysm, and could have taken place either in a new continent with massive Old God influence that could have been of interest to N'Zoth, or in a twisted, Old God-ified version of some zones of Azeroth (basically the Visions of N'Zoth but expanded).

    Throwing N'Zoth under the bus for Bob the Janitor was foolish.
    you cant really have the bad guy win, resurrect other bad guys near his level of power and an entire empire of other bad guys and have a believable resistance from characters that already lost to him, at that point. he could erase from existence with a mere thought.

    F for effort though I guess.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you cant really have the bad guy win, resurrect other bad guys near his level of power and an entire empire of other bad guys and have a believable resistance from characters that already lost to him, at that point. he could erase from existence with a mere thought.

    F for effort though I guess.
    You absolutely can.

    SWTOR had an entire expansion which starts with the "Eternal Empire" conquering and submitting the Republic and Empire, and the main protagonist (You) has to rally the dissidents, built up a power-base from the shadows, and strike back at the Eternal Empire (which won the war and conquered everyone).

    You absolutely could have had an expansion where N'Zoth revived the Black Empire, subjugated the Alliance/Horde, and forced the PC and maybe other neutral factions to act from the shadows.

    And it would have been a far more fullfilling culmination of N'Zoth's story, one of the most hyped and manipulative villains in Warcraft. The master manipulator behind Deathwing and the Cataclysm, the master manipulator behind Xavius and the Emerald Nightmare in Legion.

    Instead what we got was Dragon Soul 2.0/Kamehameha 2.0 frying N'Zoth. Like Master, like Minion (Deathwing) I guess
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-11-12 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    Honestly, all of WoW has felt this way since MoP ended. Even Legion's story wasn't actually that good. WoD, Legion, BfA, & SL feel like a completely different story, in a completely different franchise that have Warcraft characters grafted on to the top.

    Perhaps there are some people who looked at Maldraxxus and thought "Oh, so that's where the Scourge got that from!" On my end it just came across like a cheap way to do callbacks, while severely undermining & devaluing prior lore.

    Not a fan!
    It was especially silly because we had previously found out that the Scourge got their whole schtick from the Nerubians, and just twisted it around to better suit themselves and the powers they wielded. So now I guess the Nerubians got it from the Shadowlands?

  7. #7
    Shadowlands feels like fanfiction because it is fanfiction.

    Literally none of what Shadowlands is working with even existed 10 years ago


  8. #8
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Feels like "fan fiction" as a term is doing some heavy lifting it isn't really cleared for in this context. More, I would say Shadowlands suffers a lack of personal resonance - it doesn't feel like the same WoW we're accustomed to, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. I will agree that Shadowlands functions as a kind of bottle story in the same way WoD effectively did, as in the goings-on in Shadowlands are completely self-contained with minimal effect on the game's nominal setting of Azeroth. Bottle stories aren't great in terms of their footprint in an overarching narrative's history, but they're also not necessarily bad in and of themselves. It depends more on the overall quality of the story as opposed to simply being a bottle story, in other words.

    Personally speaking, I don't really feel that either WotLK or Legion really *ended* WoW, so to speak. WoW and the general Warcraft universe is set up and envisioned to go on as long as things keep happening, more or less. Chapters end, but the story goes on, for as long as people are interested in it. Not every chapter is as good as the one(s) that came before, and YMMV as concerns the ultimate quality of any specific chapter. My specific grievances with Shadowlands generally stem from what I felt were errors committed in BfA, a high-intensity focus on a small stable of NPC's (e.g. Sylvanas), and an attempt to shoehorn in a greater-scope villain (the Jailer) without sufficient narrative build-up.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    You absolutely can.

    SWTOR had an entire expansion which starts with the "Eternal Empire" conquering and submitting the Republic and Empire, and the main protagonist (You) has to rally the dissidents, built up a power-base from the shadows, and strike back at the Eternal Empire (which won the war and conquered everyone).

    You absolutely could have had an expansion where N'Zoth revived the Black Empire, subjugated the Alliance/Horde, and forced the PC and maybe other neutral factions to act from the shadows.

    And it would have been a far more fullfilling culmination of N'Zoth's story, one of the most hyped and manipulative villains in Warcraft. The master manipulator behind Deathwing and the Cataclysm, the master manipulator behind Xavius and the Emerald Nightmare in Legion.

    Instead what we got was Dragon Soul 2.0/Kamehameha 2.0 frying N'Zoth. Like Master, like Minion (Deathwing) I guess
    I like the way you think! N'zoth really did get the shaft. He was hinted at in Warcraft 3(well all old gods were). Built up since Vanilla had a whole expac about one of his Minions as the main Villan. He was responsible for expanding the Nightmare Yogg created. Created the Naga and Corrupted Deathwing. The weakest of the Old gods but the last one standing and responsible for so much evil on Azeroth... And gets taken out in a patch... The first Old god fully free at 100% of his power gets lazer beamed to death. Makes me want to cry how much wasted potential.

    He really should have won or atleast have some sort of twist at the end. I like the Idea that he hates the Void lords and wants to be free like Xal'atath. BFA was all a ploy to excape their influence using the now Empty dagger to extract his essense. While also taking a gamble at Azeroth Corruption because why not he is N'zoth master manipulator! If he took over Azeroth he becomes the most powerful creature in the Universe. If he fails he escapes to become his own person!

  10. #10
    Shadowlands feels like warcraft fanfiction by someone who hates warcraft.

    Tyrande fans hate this story.
    Sylvanas fans hate this story.
    Anduin continues to be a huge Mary Sue.

    Dansuer insinuating that after this he'll be able to tell the stories he really wants gave me big Steven Moffat series 10 of doctor who vibes. "I'm finally free of my predecessor's influence" wtf are you talking about? You've been here 5 years & just kept badly rehashing ideas.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    Does anyone else feel this way? Its disconnected and our sole connection is the few characters that tagged along and the cryptic connections to old lore that we never knew existed.

    What is worse is that BFA was used to deconstruct and wrap up whatever loose ends we may have had to make this atrocity happen.
    That's what makes me sad the most I think. Shadowlands we can all collectively forget it happened but BFA? You can't unring those bells.
    it definitely feels that way to me. in the preview video, when they mention that 9.2 is tying together plot strings that go back to warcraft 3, my first response was to angrily say that those plot points were shoved into prior stories. i thought i was completely over wow after not playing for 10 months but i guess i still have some emotional attachment. this entire expac just feels like a person is taking a diarrheic crap on the franchise. i didn't like wod because it made the legion into an almost literal cartoon villian with literally infinite soldiers but i still enjoyed it for what it was. i even enjoyed bfa even though it was a subpar expac. but shadowlands needs to be retconned with no conditions or anything.

  12. #12
    except I don't think they're actually fans.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Feels like "fan fiction" as a term is doing some heavy lifting it isn't really cleared for in this context. More, I would say Shadowlands suffers a lack of personal resonance - it doesn't feel like the same WoW we're accustomed to, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. I will agree that Shadowlands functions as a kind of bottle story in the same way WoD effectively did, as in the goings-on in Shadowlands are completely self-contained with minimal effect on the game's nominal setting of Azeroth. Bottle stories aren't great in terms of their footprint in an overarching narrative's history, but they're also not necessarily bad in and of themselves. It depends more on the overall quality of the story as opposed to simply being a bottle story, in other words.

    Personally speaking, I don't really feel that either WotLK or Legion really *ended* WoW, so to speak. WoW and the general Warcraft universe is set up and envisioned to go on as long as things keep happening, more or less. Chapters end, but the story goes on, for as long as people are interested in it. Not every chapter is as good as the one(s) that came before, and YMMV as concerns the ultimate quality of any specific chapter. My specific grievances with Shadowlands generally stem from what I felt were errors committed in BfA, a high-intensity focus on a small stable of NPC's (e.g. Sylvanas), and an attempt to shoehorn in a greater-scope villain (the Jailer) without sufficient narrative build-up.
    I would say that 'fan fiction' is an entirely appropriate term for Shadowlands. Someone -not the original author(s) has gotten hold of the material and taken it away from the intended scope. I'm not expecting a seamless transition from the old Metzen days but the changes and reframing that has been done in SL is jarring at best.

  14. #14
    Warchief Toho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    it definitely feels that way to me. in the preview video, when they mention that 9.2 is tying together plot strings that go back to warcraft 3, my first response was to angrily say that those plot points were shoved into prior stories. i thought i was completely over wow after not playing for 10 months but i guess i still have some emotional attachment. this entire expac just feels like a person is taking a diarrheic crap on the franchise. i didn't like wod because it made the legion into an almost literal cartoon villian with literally infinite soldiers but i still enjoyed it for what it was. i even enjoyed bfa even though it was a subpar expac. but shadowlands needs to be retconned with no conditions or anything.
    At least WoD was a chance for us to experience a famous warcraft story event that was referenced for years and was one the events that shaped Warcraft's lore for years to come.

    Shadowlands? What was its purpose? All it will contribute to future stories is make us speculate which covenant the next signficant character that died will end up in.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Shadowlands feels like warcraft fanfiction by someone who hates warcraft.

    Tyrande fans hate this story.
    Sylvanas fans hate this story.
    Anduin continues to be a huge Mary Sue.

    Dansuer insinuating that after this he'll be able to tell the stories he really wants gave me big Steven Moffat series 10 of doctor who vibes. "I'm finally free of my predecessor's influence" wtf are you talking about? You've been here 5 years & just kept badly rehashing ideas.
    The farther along this gets the more reminiscent of Rise of the Skywalker it becomes. They should probably check their writing room, for an invasive species of JarJar Abrahamses.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Felrane View Post
    I like the way you think! N'zoth really did get the shaft. He was hinted at in Warcraft 3(well all old gods were). Built up since Vanilla had a whole expac about one of his Minions as the main Villan. He was responsible for expanding the Nightmare Yogg created. Created the Naga and Corrupted Deathwing. The weakest of the Old gods but the last one standing and responsible for so much evil on Azeroth... And gets taken out in a patch... The first Old god fully free at 100% of his power gets lazer beamed to death. Makes me want to cry how much wasted potential.

    He really should have won or atleast have some sort of twist at the end. I like the Idea that he hates the Void lords and wants to be free like Xal'atath. BFA was all a ploy to excape their influence using the now Empty dagger to extract his essense. While also taking a gamble at Azeroth Corruption because why not he is N'zoth master manipulator! If he took over Azeroth he becomes the most powerful creature in the Universe. If he fails he escapes to become his own person!
    What people ignore when it comes to N'Zoth is that he might have been the weakest Old God and a bug compared to Sargeras, but he was easily the most manipulative and insidious villain in Warcraft. The results of his manipulations could be seen all over Azeroth and he employed countless iconic villainous forces under his service:

    - Xavius and the Emerald Nightmare, which were a great threat to the Emerald Dream and Nature;
    - Azshara and the Naga Empire, who have been recurring threats in several zones since Classic;
    - Because of the above, Illidans' Naga forces were also ultimately affiliated with N'Zoth (it's easy to see why N'Zoth would send his minions to help Illidan; Illidan's true goal was to destroy the Legion, N'Zoth's greatest enemy in the Cosmos);
    - Cho'gall and the Twilight's Cult, which were a major threat since Classic (in Silithus);
    - Ragnaros and his Fire elementals and Dark Irons;
    - Deathwing, Nefarian, Onyxia, the Black Dragons, therefore he was also the master of all their minions, like the Dark Horde and Stormwind (while Onyxia was ruling);
    - Al'akir and his Wind elementals;
    - Technically he also had control of the Church of the Holy Light via Benedictus, who was actually a high-ranking cultist of the Twilight's Cult.

    N'Zoth was actually the one who caused the Cataclysm, because he sensed an opportunity after the Lich King's death and reawakened Deathwing. He was the orchestrator of the Hour of Twilight, that's why his Faceless minions where everywhere during the Dragon Soul raid.

    The funny thing is that even with all the retcons Blizzard did to push the Janitor above every other pre-established villain, I don't believe N'Zoth suffered at all. He knew that Azshara betrayed him and made a deal with Sylvanas, that's why he had Azshara taken prisoner in Ny'alotha and tortured by his minions. That's how smart N'Zoth is, even Blizzard's retcons couldn't change the fact that he was in control of the game for years.

    Literally the only reason why N'Zoth lost is because Warcraft went full Dragon Ball, because people LOVED when Thrall did a Kamehameha on Deathwing

    If what they want to do here is copy A Realm Reborn from Final Fantasy, they should have just had Azeroth be reoriginated to defeat N'Zoth or something. You know, what everyone was predicting for years before Shadowlands. None of this Janitor BS crap that came out of nowhere.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-11-12 at 03:43 PM.

  17. #17
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smallfruitbat View Post
    I would say that 'fan fiction' is an entirely appropriate term for Shadowlands. Someone -not the original author(s) has gotten hold of the material and taken it away from the intended scope. I'm not expecting a seamless transition from the old Metzen days but the changes and reframing that has been done in SL is jarring at best.
    The story of WoW was always a committee-type setup involving multiple parties and authors adding to its existing canon. From Metzen, Knaak, Grubb, and Neilson to Danuser, Roux, and Golden - with any of a dozen writers like Stackpole, King, and Rosenberg making minor additions. WoW doesn't have an "original author," and anyone who writes with the sanction of the developers can't really be called a fan writer. Not liking something doesn't relegate that thing to fanfiction, because that's not how words work.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    At least WoD was a chance for us to experience a famous warcraft story event that was referenced for years and was one the events that shaped Warcraft's lore for years to come.

    Shadowlands? What was its purpose? All it will contribute to future stories is make us speculate which covenant the next signficant character that died will end up in.
    Unfortunate thing kind of is that Lore trivia has for some reason overtaken the actual story...

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The story of WoW was always a committee-type setup involving multiple parties and authors adding to its existing canon. From Metzen, Knaak, Grubb, and Neilson to Danuser, Roux, and Golden - with any of a dozen writers like Stackpole, King, and Rosenberg making minor additions. WoW doesn't have an "original author," and anyone who writes with the sanction of the developers can't really be called a fan writer. Not liking something doesn't relegate that thing to fanfiction, because that's not how words work.
    What are you talking about? Metzen was the father of this setting. He built the foundation and watched closely as it was expanded and supplemented. Putting Metzen on a par with writers for hire is pretty weird.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Unfortunate thing kind of is that Lore trivia has for some reason overtaken the actual story...
    Accolonn did a great breakdown of this on youtube: Are you a new player who was forced to play through BFA? Did you learn ANYTHING about the major warcraft characters before meeting them in Shadowlands? That's actually a huge problem. Especially if you just played Wacraft 3, these characters don't resemble those at all. Why isnt Thrall A Shaman? Why is Sylvanas evil now? FF14 story sucks at least its presented in a way that makes sense.

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