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  1. #281
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I countered literally everything you and the others implied. Come on now...
    Agreeing that parts of the First Ones are inspired by the Titans is not a counter and is in fact agreeing with what I and others have said. Everything else is moving goal posts to try and save face by "being right" even when you've already agreed you were wrong.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post



    Aren't you the same guy that thought the Eternal Ones were Keeper Level based off 1 easily countered interview? Glad to be seeing you again, making fun of people's names. :/
    Aren't you the guy who said the players are stronger than the Titans because we defeated Denatrius in the raid? Glad to see you. It is a pity that you still do not understand that in that interview in which Ion say the Eternal Ones are equal to the titans he talks about the battle of players with Argu the titan (who was not a full-fledged titan), and Steve Danuser compares them in terms of the fact that they are both Pantheons. As I said 100 times, the Eternals Ones could BEFORE be on the Titan level, but during the SL they are Keeper level at best. Possibly due to drought.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    This may sound egotistical, but if all 3-4 of your guys are gonna have this much trouble arguing with me whilist tryna keep your own points fucking consistent, then MAYBE it's time you all realized that...possibly, JUST POSSIBLY mind you...that you're out of your league.
    Wow. Unable to separate fantasy and reality, unable to argue without strawmen, ad hominem, and nearly every fallacy in the book... and so humble at the same time. Have fun cheerleading for Steve or whatever it is you're doing here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Agreeing that parts of the First Ones are inspired by the Titans is not a counter and is in fact agreeing with what I and others have said. Everything else is moving goal posts to try and save face by "being right" even when you've already agreed you were wrong.
    Don't forget the constant ad homs against everyone and the wonderful display of humility we've just enjoyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #284
    I feel like you guys don’t actually know the terms you genuinely argue. Which is funny as you guys argue this shit as points against me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Aren't you the guy who said the players are stronger than the Titans because we defeated Denatrius in the raid? Glad to see you. It is a pity that you still do not understand that in that interview in which Ion say the Eternal Ones are equal to the titans he talks about the battle of players with Argu the titan (who was not a full-fledged titan), and Steve Danuser compares them in terms of the fact that they are both Pantheons. As I said 100 times, the Eternals Ones could BEFORE be on the Titan level, but during the SL they are Keeper level at best. Possibly due to drought.
    Yeah. I did argue that. Nothing’s changed.

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    And your arguments for that are still outdated, huh?

    Whatever, if I can’t convince you of this shit now, I never will.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    I feel like you guys don’t actually know the terms you genuinely argue. Which is funny as you guys argue this shit as points against me.

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    Yeah. I did argue that. Nothing’s changed.

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    And your arguments for that are still outdated, huh?

    Whatever, if I can’t convince you of this shit now, I never will.
    You have literally not given any proof that RIGHT NOW the Eternal Ones are at the Titan level. Your nonsense about the buffs from the SL, forcing players to get the power to defeat creatures of the Titan level, no one takes seriously

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Agreeing that parts of the First Ones are inspired by the Titans is not a counter and is in fact agreeing with what I and others have said. Everything else is moving goal posts to try and save face by "being right" even when you've already agreed you were wrong.
    You just miss out on like…absolutely everything else I’ve said? Or are we cherry picking shit now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    You have literally not given any proof that RIGHT NOW the Eternal Ones are at the Titan level. Your nonsense about the buffs from the SL, forcing players to get the power to defeat creatures of the Titan level, no one takes seriously
    outside of the drought being over, multiple interviews from 9.1 and beyond, the Eternal Ones being fully prepared to strike at the Jailer, the new Tier Sets, Zovaal’s amps through the Maw and his OG power suggesting otherwise…

    :/

  7. #287
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    You just miss out on like…absolutely everything else I’ve said? Or are we cherry picking shit now?
    How am I cherry picking anything? You stated that parts of the First Ones were inspired by the Titans. That is exactly what I and others have been saying to you that you disagreed with. Even now you are still picking fights even though you've said that what we stated is true. Weird right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #288
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Perhaps this is the point of the back-and-forth arguing where everyone involved repeats their basis thesis statements or fundamental arguments as opposed to reacting to someone else's? I've been trying to follow this conversation myself and I legitimately can't follow any of your arguments. I can supply some basic framework details based on the various interviews:

    1.) It's difficult to say if the First Ones were "inspired by" or share any elemental connection to the Titans. Both pantheons serve in the role of creators to a degree, but we know very little about the First Ones' personalities or natures. The Titans, being creatures of Order, were very mechanistic and logical in their approach, almost to a fault. Some evidence points to the First Ones being a bit more human-like (in the real-world sense) than the Titans, but these are open to interpretation and may not well be true.

    2.) "Power levels" are difficult to assess, but based on what the various developers have said the Eternal Ones (excluding Zovaal) are either at or slight below the "power level" of any given Titan. Zovaal has grown exceedingly powerful but may also have been originally more powerful than his peers by right of being the original Arbiter, in a First Among Equals type of deal (since it took all four of the other Eternal Ones to imprison him in the Maw originally).

    3.) Like their personalities and natures, we know little to nothing of the relative power level of the First Ones. As the creators of the WoW metacosm and its primordial forces, one would automatically expect them to be nigh all-powerful, but this may well not actually be the case. We don't know if they're still active within their creation or if they even still exist - they could be watching everything unfold and otherwise powerless to act, they could be all-powerful but entirely aloof, they may be biding their time and prepared to strike Zovaal down at a certain point, or they could be active right now behind the scenes to an unknown degree.
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  9. #289
    Yeah…parts. But I’m not going to say they straight up created shit or anything. The Titans took shit from the other powers VIA the will of the First Ones to Order the great dark and to balance/shape chaotic worlds. Whatever they used to “create” shit came from a higher will, or it came from an existing source in an already constructed Cosmos.

    The First Ones just straight up made everything from scratch, with the primals being more like an alpha model of the Cosmos and it’s powers prior to the framework being made. The First Ones even wield a power that’s beyond the other 6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Perhaps this is the point of the back-and-forth arguing where everyone involved repeats their basis thesis statements or fundamental arguments as opposed to reacting to someone else's? I've been trying to follow this conversation myself and I legitimately can't follow any of your arguments. I can supply some basic framework details based on the various interviews:

    1.) It's difficult to say if the First Ones were "inspired by" or share any elemental connection to the Titans. Both pantheons serve in the role of creators to a degree, but we know very little about the First Ones' personalities or natures. The Titans, being creatures of Order, were very mechanistic and logical in their approach, almost to a fault. Some evidence points to the First Ones being a bit more human-like (in the real-world sense) than the Titans, but these are open to interpretation and may not well be true.

    2.) "Power levels" are difficult to assess, but based on what the various developers have said the Eternal Ones (excluding Zovaal) are either at or slight below the "power level" of any given Titan. Zovaal has grown exceedingly powerful but may also have been originally more powerful than his peers by right of being the original Arbiter, in a First Among Equals type of deal (since it took all four of the other Eternal Ones to imprison him in the Maw originally).

    3.) Like their personalities and natures, we know little to nothing of the relative power level of the First Ones. As the creators of the WoW metacosm and its primordial forces, one would automatically expect them to be nigh all-powerful, but this may well not actually be the case. We don't know if they're still active within their creation or if they even still exist - they could be watching everything unfold and otherwise powerless to act, they could be all-powerful but entirely aloof, they may be biding their time and prepared to strike Zovaal down at a certain point, or they could be active right now behind the scenes to an unknown degree.
    No supreme being is all powerful regardless in fiction, so whatever the case, anyone being able to surpass the First Ones is whatever really.

    As for the other things, the “below” stuff is rather much simply equated to either the Drought, or through someone like Denathrius weakening themselves through the Medallions, even if for a bit:

    And with Zovaal? Seems like Aman’thul and Sargeras mixed really in terms of power role.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I've been trying to follow this conversation myself and I legitimately can't follow any of your arguments.
    People have pointed out similarities (with lists of traits) in the writing for both groups, and proposed that the current writers drew inspiration from previous material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  11. #291
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    No supreme being is all powerful regardless in fiction, so whatever the case, anyone being able to surpass the First Ones is whatever really.
    Fiction is rife with supreme beings of all kinds - some all-powerful, some immensely powerful but obviously flawed, and others almost indistinguishable from human save for some extra powers or metahuman capabilities. From your Eru Ilúvatar, the supreme and all-powerful creator god of Tolkein's Legendarium, to beings like The Presence or the various mythological pantheons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    People have pointed out similarities (with lists of traits) in the writing for both groups, and proposed that the current writers drew inspiration from previous material.
    That's kind of a given, at least from the Doylist standpoint of storytelling purposes. The First Ones are pretty much in the similar vein as the Titans just telescoped out and writ large to transition from a quasi-galactic or interplanetary model to a more cosmic one - and though the framework of creator-gods making or ordering the narrative universe is pretty much the same there's still a lot of room for detail and nuance within the new scope (for better or worse depending on one's prejudices).
    WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?. - Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That's kind of a given, at least from the Doylist standpoint of storytelling purposes. The First Ones are pretty much in the similar vein as the Titans just telescoped out and writ large to transition from a quasi-galactic or interplanetary model to a more cosmic one - and though the framework of creator-gods making or ordering the narrative universe is pretty much the same there's still a lot of room for detail and nuance within the new scope (for better or worse depending on one's prejudices).
    Exactly. The problem has been an insistence on mixing Doyle and Watson, with bizarre statements that the First Ones couldn't be inspired by the Titans because they are a higher order than the Titans. At this point, the confusion on the other side is either deliberate or, if innocent, simply beyond anyone's ability to correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Aren't you the guy who said the players are stronger than the Titans because we defeated Denatrius in the raid? Glad to see you. It is a pity that you still do not understand that in that interview in which Ion say the Eternal Ones are equal to the titans he talks about the battle of players with Argu the titan (who was not a full-fledged titan), and Steve Danuser compares them in terms of the fact that they are both Pantheons. As I said 100 times, the Eternals Ones could BEFORE be on the Titan level, but during the SL they are Keeper level at best. Possibly due to drought.
    Ah yes...definitely affected by a drought...

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    Yep, totally. Not like there's Anima going through it or anything. Anima I helped provide so that both the Covenant, and the Shadowlands as a whole could survive, even. Nope. Definitely still a drought going on. Totally not going to call you out in that 9.0's narrative's been dealt with for over a year now, or anything. :/

  14. #294
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    We already seen this power unbalance where Sargeras got so powerful and destroyed Titans. Now we have the Jailer who is way too powerful, even we are way too powerful. This only shows that there is something really wrong going on in the Universe and it has something to do with shutting down the Cosmic Force of Order. I wouldn’t be amazed if the First Ones are the ones who are being wiped out like irrelevant pests at this point. This is very disturbing.
    Behold my new creation!


  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Yep, totally. Not like there's Anima going through it or anything. Anima I helped provide so that both the Covenant, and the Shadowlands as a whole could survive, even. Nope. Definitely still a drought going on. Totally not going to call you out in that 9.0's narrative's been dealt with for over a year now, or anything. :/
    I mean, to be fair just because you survived a drought doesn't mean you're thriving at full power. Or did the player actually do something to restart the natural flows of anima to those shadowlands?

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Mic_128 View Post
    I mean, to be fair just because you survived a drought doesn't mean you're thriving at full power. Or did the player actually do something to restart the natural flows of anima to those shadowlands?
    The Player literally caused Anima to flow across their respective covenant once more. The drought doesn’t exist anymore.

  17. #297
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    They can't do a Titans twice.
    The sad part is that they already have (from a Doylist PoV). These FOs dude(tte)s even built a Forge Machine of Origination, and their Sepulcher looks awfully similar to your run-of-the-mill Titan facility from &$#%ing Azeroth.

    FOs (and our Jailor pal as well, btw) are almost a textbook example of this trite, tired trope.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-12-03 at 03:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Shadowlands could have had half it's timegated, grindy, restrictive, pointless mechanics removed and replaced with nothing and it would have just been a straight up better game for it.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    The Player literally caused Anima to flow across their respective covenant once more. The drought doesn’t exist anymore.
    But how? I thought without an arbiter all the souls still got sent to the maw.

  19. #299
    So since Pantheon of Shadowlands is 3D printed, that means that also Order Pantheon is printed.

    But if Pantheon 1.0 was scrapped because too unstable, how the fuck Pantheon 2.0 was green lighted when Zovaal and Denatrhius are like this???? jfc this lore shit

  20. #300
    10000% agree with the idea that the 'Player Adventurers' collectively are more powerful than even the First Ones, obviously more powerful than the Titans. Warcraft is ultimately a story about god-hunting Adventurers systematically killing its way to the top of the theological food chain.

    First it was Dragons then Elemental Gods then Old Gods then Titans and now even invading death itself to kill the Gods over there. The Adventurers haven't met any Gods it isn't able to kill, and there's no reason to believe they ever will. If such a thing as an Evil First One exists you can be sure the Adventurers will kill it.

    They are incapable of death. If you cut one down, they will just reappear nearby 2 minutes later, seemingly unharmed.

    Collectively there are several million god-killing Adventurers, wildly outpopulating every other faction on Azeroth, a military force that puts the Burning Legion to shame. Combined with their immortality it is an infinite army of unstoppable demigods.

    And it doesn't even look like they have a power ceiling. They just keep getting more and more powerful every 6-8 months.
    Last edited by choom; 2021-12-03 at 11:49 PM.

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