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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Dude, you have no idea what are you talking about. There is nothing to disagree about here because in the end, addons are INTELECTUAL PROPERTY of their authors.
    So I can charge for my addon regardless if blizzard likes it or not.
    Lol you go ahead and do that let me know how it works out for you

  2. #202
    A technical question:

    Can Blizzard (easily) break any add-on whatsoever, even an add-on that is very similar in function to other add-ons?
    If that is the case then there is probably no reason for Blizzard to go the legal route to stop someone from directly charging money for an add-on.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    A technical question:

    Can Blizzard (easily) break any add-on whatsoever, even an add-on that is very similar in function to other add-ons?
    If that is the case then there is probably no reason for Blizzard to go the legal route to stop someone from directly charging money for an add-on.
    Blizzard has repeatedly neutered add-ons which utilized APIs in clever ways to give unfair advantages. (The original Decursive, AVR, certain WAs.) They've also had a weird habit of introducing certain popular addons into the game itself. (Gearscore, oQueue, Raider.IO) There are certain grey areas where Blizzard hasn't taken a stand and the current CurseForge is right in the middle of one. The money going to the creators isn't being generated directly by the add-on itself so Blizzard is unlikely to make any moves. I could, however, see a world where CurseForge gets a little too comfortable with its cornering of the add-on development market and Blizzard decides to change the way add-ons are handled.
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  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Blizzard seems to think so: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...t-policy/24534



    The mental masturbation of envisioning a hypothetical developer of a popular addon for WoW who has never played the game and doesn't care if Blizzard blocks it is rather amusing, but ultimately pointless. They don't exist.
    They do exist, people write addons for pservers. Check mate. While they are able to enforce legal rights over servers, they can't do that for their addons.
    And yes they would probably ban your addon but can't exercise a legal right over something they have no rights to.

    And again you did not understand what bluspacecow wrote. You don't have to accept any eula in order to write addon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    wowless uses wowcig to pull XML from 'http://us.patch.battle.net:1119/'
    So, you are downloading Blizzard's code from Blizzard's website and are likely subject to Blizzard's TOS and other rules.
    In your scenario, its a trap... lol
    You dont have to use either of those tools. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing your own implementation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Very true.

    But, back on topic -
    Blizzard's policies clearly support a notion of amateurism for addon developers, in the same spirit as the NCAA or Olympics used to have (rip).
    OW is attempting to parasitically capture/create a financial market. Its obvious to me that they plan to 'boil the frog' - these initial restrictions are
    just the beginning. They should be recognized and resisted as the privacy-invading and amatureism-destroying menace that they are.
    Keep in mind that WoW addons are only a small portion of what OW is trying to control. The Minecraft community is much larger and also a portion is not happy with these changes.

    Patreon is a good solution, but what I'd love to see more was an in-game way of rewarding popular developers with free game time or some other goodies.
    OW rewards program just feels like RMT boosting to me.
    That is next level entitlement. They have the database and support from actual authors. "Parasitical" are those clients that used to rip their db off without giving a shit in return.

    How about you make alternative and lets see how many addons will follow?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Lol you go ahead and do that let me know how it works out for you
    We already know, addon would get banned on official client and that is it.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  5. #205
    Just deal with it. You will use overwolf because only a retard would individually check each addon for an update.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Blizzard has repeatedly neutered add-ons which utilized APIs in clever ways to give unfair advantages. (The original Decursive, AVR, certain WAs.) They've also had a weird habit of introducing certain popular addons into the game itself. (Gearscore, oQueue, Raider.IO) There are certain grey areas where Blizzard hasn't taken a stand and the current CurseForge is right in the middle of one. The money going to the creators isn't being generated directly by the add-on itself so Blizzard is unlikely to make any moves. I could, however, see a world where CurseForge gets a little too comfortable with its cornering of the add-on development market and Blizzard decides to change the way add-ons are handled.
    It's not what he has asked.

    And the answer is: No.

    If you make addon that uses same functions as popular other addons but is paid, blizzard in current implementation can't do shit about it.
    They do have addon blacklist but its by name, you can easily wrote "addon name generator" to avoid that.

    And this is a truly pandora box that should (for the sake of other addons and their devs) never be opened. Because it would lead to blizzard making a whitelist or some other forms of protection.

    https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/w...allowed_AddOns

    Yes they can break the API, but there is no safe mechanism to disallow addons that doesn't use any extraordinary stuff.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    This says World of Warcraft EULA and World of Warcraft Terms of Use.

    Both of these documents no longer apply as they were replaced years ago with the Blizzard End User License. All 3 documents mention have phrases in them saying not only do they update users but they also upload a copy on the website.

    So if it is as binding as you make it out to be why hasn't the UI policy forum thread been updated in years to say "Blizzard End User License" ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    wowless uses wowcig to pull XML from 'http://us.patch.battle.net:1119/'
    So, you are downloading Blizzard's code from Blizzard's website and are likely subject to Blizzard's TOS and other rules.
    In your scenario, its a trap... lol
    Except Blizzard's private UI code isn't on battle.net's patch server

    There isn't a relevant ToS or EULA for pulling from the patch server as it's not officially supported to pull from there.
    Last edited by bluspacecow; 2021-11-24 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That is next level entitlement. They have the database and support from actual authors. "Parasitical" are those clients that used to rip their db off without giving a shit in return.
    I'm glad you brought up both entitlement and parasitical action. You should sometimes look at mirror. I don't understand why you are trying to justify your own actions so hard. In the end you are trying to leech money off someone else's product against their wish.

    I really hope you are not trying to make your add-ons for living and actually have a real job, but at this point I am not that sure.

    edit: and before you write some dumb reply: No, I don't think it's okay that hosting costs fall to "curse" and other people just leech of their servers. I'm not here to justify anyone's actions.
    Last edited by dzd; 2021-11-24 at 01:32 PM.

  9. #209
    Blizz could decide to halt such a practice and tell OW no if they wanted, odds of that are slim though. What's more likely is that if OW makes enough money via ads hosting addons that some bean counter at blizz sees a new revenue source and blizz does their own thing to host addons with ads. Given the extra layer of control it would give blizz I'm shocked they haven't in-housed addon hosting anyways
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  10. #210
    The Patient Chakah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    The mental masturbation of envisioning a hypothetical developer of a popular addon for WoW who has never played the game and doesn't care if Blizzard blocks it is rather amusing, but ultimately pointless. They don't exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    They do exist, people write addons for pservers. Check mate.
    I see - so now you are defending your position by referring to a hypothetical addon developer, who never played WoW, who doesn't care if Blizzard blocks their addon, who makes money charging for it, and is popular on pservers?

    Holy crap.... come back to reality...

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    You dont have to use either of those tools. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from writing your own implementation.
    Never said people had to. But bluespacecow's post said you could somehow avoid legal entanglement by using those tools - and that a pretty precarious legal position.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    How about you make alternative and lets see how many addons will follow?
    No need for me to do it, at least one is already in progress.
    I'd tell you where, but I don't want OW to fire you for being exposed to the competition's source code. Gotta maintain that clean IP environment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bluspacecow View Post
    This says World of Warcraft EULA and World of Warcraft Terms of Use.

    Both of these documents no longer apply as they were replaced years ago with the Blizzard End User License.
    I wouldn't say replaced so much as superseded. If you think you can convince a judge that Blizzard just dropped the ball legally, good luck.

    https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/21466

    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal/fba4d00f-c7e4-4883-b8b9-1b4500a402ea/blizzard-end-user-license-agreement
    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal/511dbf9e-2b2d-4047-8243-4c5c65e0ebf1/terms-of-use-for-blizzards-websites
    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal

    Your country may vary

    Quote Originally Posted by bluspacecow View Post
    Except Blizzard's private UI code isn't on battle.net's patch server

    There isn't a relevant ToS or EULA for pulling from the patch server as it's not officially supported to pull from there.
    'private'?
    The XML wowless grabs and uses for validation is 'officially' distributed as part of the client - which is hosted on the patch server... which wowless just downloaded a portion of - from Blizzard's website...

    This is a pretty precarious legal position. I'd ask your lawyer.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    I'm glad you brought up both entitlement and parasitical action. You should sometimes look at mirror. I don't understand why you are trying to justify your own actions so hard. In the end you are trying to leech money off someone else's product against their wish.

    I really hope you are not trying to make your add-ons for living and actually have a real job, but at this point I am not that sure.

    edit: and before you write some dumb reply: No, I don't think it's okay that hosting costs fall to "curse" and other people just leech of their servers. I'm not here to justify anyone's actions.
    My actions? Pffft dude stop embarrassing yourself, I finished supporting my addon when i stopped playing game in february )))))))))))
    Meaning i don't update it unless someone else does the fix. Havent been using curseforge ever since.

    Its your karen entitlement over other people works is what is the problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    I see - so now you are defending your position by referring to a hypothetical addon developer, who never played WoW, who doesn't care if Blizzard blocks their addon, who makes money charging for it, and is popular on pservers?

    Holy crap.... come back to reality...
    Nobody cares about your imaginative situation, reality is simple addon or standalone app is exactly the same in eyes of law. End of story.
    Read about pandora box I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Never said people had to. But bluespacecow's post said you could somehow avoid legal entanglement by using those tools - and that a pretty precarious legal position.
    He did not say that. Read again what he wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    No need for me to do it, at least one is already in progress.
    I'd tell you where, but I don't want OW to fire you for being exposed to the competition's source code. Gotta maintain that clean IP environment.
    Pfft, funny nonsense. I stoped writing addons in Feb, try again.
    As for "alternative" its not going on well as you may thought since the only one that can actually work has the same policy as OW (which is wago).

    You dont need to convince anyone since source code of any program is protected by default. Nobody will care about some eula you never aggreed to in first place.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Its your karen entitlement over other people works is what is the problem.
    What are you even talking about? It feels like you don't even understand what is being discussed. Are you drunk or something? And I don't mean this post only, but in almost every post you make you totally miss what is even being talked about.

    If there is something wrong with your life, there has to be someone who you can talk to. I think it's better to end this discussion here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Never said people had to. But bluespacecow's post said you could somehow avoid legal entanglement by using those tools - and that a pretty precarious legal position.
    Funny that I actually missed it earlier when I was hastily reading through, even though I quoted it apparently. I don't get why he would mention some tools when it's the same to just argue you could do it without ever running any blizzard code. Kinda shows though how absurd the whole discussion is.

    Even funnier is that everyone arguing here would shit their pants instantly - for a good reason, if they got letter from blizzard telling to fuck off and would instantly stop doing whatever it was they didn't like. There has been some guys that has tested blizzard's ability to enforce their rights and some of them have got fucked pretty hard.

    Do I think you could get in serious trouble in this case? No, but I still don't like when people advocate possibly breaking EULA or w/e. It's "fine" if you do it yourself, don't try to justify it to others.
    Last edited by dzd; 2021-11-25 at 03:28 AM.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    This is a pretty precarious legal position. I'd ask your lawyer.
    I was trying to make a point that as Addons don't contain significant copyrightable portions of World of Warcraft's internal code they therefore can not be derivative works. Like how encoding something using the MP4 file format does not make it a derivative work of VLC.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Again. Not a legal document. Also another one nestled in some place an addon author doesn't go to when creating an addon.

    Do you think addon authors go into the support site to look up how to make an addon when writing their first addon ?

    No. They look up tutorials. They look at the code from existing addons. They may even drop into the Discord servers/IRC chat for the addon community.

    But in my 13 years kicking around the addon community I've never heard of an addon author getting their start by looking up stuff in the support site.

    Also as far as I know that page was created between 2018-2020 . So what did addon authors do to create addons before then ?

    You see for that support article to have any relevance then it needs to be the *only* starting point to create an addon. It shouldn't be possible to create one just by editing text files.
    Last edited by bluspacecow; 2021-11-25 at 05:03 AM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    What are you even talking about? It feels like you don't even understand what is being discussed. Are you drunk or something? And I don't mean this post only, but in almost every post you make you totally miss what is even being talked about.

    If there is something wrong with your life, there has to be someone who you can talk to. I think it's better to end this discussion here.
    I perfectly understand what is going on, you are trying some mental gymnastics trying to bend intellectual property laws. Desperately trying to find loophole.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Funny that I actually missed it earlier when I was hastily reading through, even though I quoted it apparently. I don't get why he would mention some tools when it's the same to just argue you could do it without ever running any blizzard code. Kinda shows though how absurd the whole discussion is.
    Because you can. Lua is not a property of blizzard thus they had to make their environment too. Again: oracle java vs openjdk.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Even funnier is that everyone arguing here would shit their pants instantly - for a good reason, if they got letter from blizzard telling to fuck off and would instantly stop doing whatever it was they didn't like. There has been some guys that has tested blizzard's ability to enforce their rights and some of them have got fucked pretty hard.

    Do I think you could get in serious trouble in this case? No, but I still don't like when people advocate possibly breaking EULA or w/e. It's "fine" if you do it yourself, don't try to justify it to others.
    Stop posting nonsense about things you clearly have no clue about. Nobody would shit their pants because even if blizzard would be dumb enough to send you this letter practically any lawyer wins such case. Its not even up for discussion otherwise it would have been a HUGE loophole in intellectual property law, which would allow people claim rights over your code just because they own an environment that can "run your code".

    It's ridiculous beyond imagination.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    I perfectly understand what is going on, you are trying some mental gymnastics trying to bend intellectual property laws. Desperately trying to find loophole.
    Yup, you need to get help. The way you think "intellectual property" is some magic word you can just quote that trumps everything else is just.. I guess easy way to get trouble in life.

    Also the entitlement that you think your rights trump everyone else's rights it just straight batshit crazy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Again: oracle java vs openjdk.
    Quoting just to point out that you just write nonsense that doesn't make any sense on any level. Like what do you expect people to answer to this?

    edit: hmm let me have a guess. I think you might make cheats for living? You talk exactly like they do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bluspacecow View Post
    Do you think addon authors go into the support site to look up how to make an addon when writing their first addon ?

    No. They look up tutorials. They look at the code from existing addons. They may even drop into the Discord servers/IRC chat for the addon community.
    [...]
    You see for that support article to have any relevance then it needs to be the *only* starting point to create an addon. It shouldn't be possible to create one just by editing text files.
    There is this problem that the only "official" way to get information about the API is in-game. How do you think those tutorials got their information? And just to point out. We are obviously talking about add-ons that do something relevant in-game. Not some generic LUA libraries.
    Last edited by dzd; 2021-11-25 at 11:58 AM.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by TommiTMX View Post
    Developing and maintaining things like WeakAuras, DBM, BigWigs etc. takes a crazy amount of time, I'm happy to support people being paid passively for time they put into building tools though so it doesn't mean I have to think your determination to not support them is the right thing to do nor believe the indignation or entitlement of anyone arguing such is just.
    Not wanting to use Overwolf's PoS software is no way declares "I do not want to support addon makers." There are an infinite amount of ways for people to support addon makers instead of relying on Overwolf which we all know will take the lion's share of it anyways. There's Patreon for automatic monthly support. Venmo and PayPal for one-time tips.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    If you make addon that uses same functions as popular other addons but is paid, blizzard in current implementation can't do shit about it.
    They could probably send Cease & Desist letters and take it to court if they really wanted to. Automattic has done this with WordPress themes since the only the CSS/JavaScript is 100% created by the theme author but the PHP is a derivative of WordPress since it cannot function without "the Loop" or hooks.
    They could also integrate the feature into the game too.
    Last edited by Eosia; 2021-11-25 at 12:12 PM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    Not wanting to use Overwolf's PoS software is no way declares "I do not want to support addon makers." There are an infinite amount of ways for people to support addon makers instead of relying on Overwolf which we all know will take the lion's share of it anyways. There's Patreon for automatic monthly support. Venmo and PayPal for one-time tips.
    In theory you are right. In practice most people don't do that.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Yup, you need to get help. The way you think "intellectual property" is some magic word you can just quote that trumps everything else is just.. I guess easy way to get trouble in life.

    Also the entitlement that you think your rights trump everyone else's rights it just straight batshit crazy.
    The only thing is batshit crazy is your entitlement over other people work. If you didn't write a single line in code you have no damn rights to dictate authors where they host it, what is the license etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    Quoting just to point out that you just write nonsense that doesn't make any sense on any level. Like what do you expect people to answer to this?

    edit: hmm let me have a guess. I think you might make cheats for living? You talk exactly like they do.
    If you understood the whole situation you would know. But I am guessing you are not developer so...
    Your guesses btw misses every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by dzd View Post
    There is this problem that the only "official" way to get information about the API is in-game. How do you think those tutorials got their information? And just to point out. We are obviously talking about add-ons that do something relevant in-game. Not some generic LUA libraries.
    That is actually incorrect. Blizzard never had docs up until recently, technically there was no "official" way to get that information at all. And again, "in game api" is just function names. This was already covered by bluspacecow.

    The only way blizzard could ever get that done right is code signing and developer keys for people that develop addons. But they dont give a fuck.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    They could probably send Cease & Desist letters and take it to court if they really wanted to. Automattic has done this with WordPress themes since the only the CSS/JavaScript is 100% created by the theme author but the PHP is a derivative of WordPress since it cannot function without "the Loop" or hooks.
    They could also integrate the feature into the game too.
    The difference here is that wordpress themes were straight up copied. And we are talking about trying to sell your own 100% written from scratch addon. It's not the same situation. The only thing blizzard could do is block that addon.

    But then again all you gotta do is to cut out portion of addon and sell it as "data" while giving out "shell" for free like zygor is doing. Since its easier and is also eula compliant.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    The difference here is that wordpress themes were straight up copied. And we are talking about trying to sell your own 100% written from scratch addon. It's not the same situation. The only thing blizzard could do is block that addon.

    But then again all you gotta do is to cut out portion of addon and sell it as "data" while giving out "shell" for free like zygor is doing. Since its easier and is also eula compliant.
    Has nothing to do with them being copied. It has to do with the code to make them work. No WordPress theme can function without the Loop or the Hooks/API calls. Hence why the GPLv2 license is viral.

    NO WoW Addon works without WoW itself. DBM, Skada, ERT, WA, etc. are not stand-alone and cannot be used outside of WoW. There are addon libraries, sure. But making them commercial is stupid because no one would use them in their own addons.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    That is actually incorrect. Blizzard never had docs up until recently, technically there was no "official" way to get that information at all. And again, "in game api" is just function names. This was already covered by bluspacecow.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/MACRO_api
    Hopefully top-tier developer like you can understand the link.

    And btw now I'm actually gonna stop replying because it gets a bit boring to argue some point you don't believe in to some amoeba, who thinks he can do anything he wants in this world. I don't now what the truth is, the only thing I'm sure is that your arguments is dumb on many levels and if I were you, I wouldn't want blizzard to test them. The world is not fair and you will get fucked either way.
    Last edited by dzd; 2021-11-26 at 12:35 AM.

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