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  1. #1

    we should not accept chore content without alternatives

    Dailies and rares. These things are not fun at all because there are no stakes. At least in the maw you were sort of time capped so there was an aspect of strategy(you didn't have the option to simply waste your day doing every possible thing).

    This kind of content needs to be given an alternative. I want the chance to defeat a difficult opponent or do a time limit quest. I want a chance at more than what the easy slow content gives at the cost of possibly failing and getting much less than what the slow content gives. The fact that the game has no-stakes chores is always the fundamental thing that puts me off and makes me stop playing because thats not a real video game and i know it and i feel like an idiot for "playing" it.

    Blizzard wonder's why they don't get respect. It's because they disrespect a huge part of the player base every time they log in wanting to play a video game and are instead given chores.

  2. #2
    Agreed.

    The Maw in 9.0 was actually fun because you could lose. The only bad thing was not being able to mount, which was just slow.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2021-11-15 at 06:32 PM.

  3. #3
    I have 8 characters that I run primarily M+ with and I've never done a single Korthia daily. I've got at least KSM on each of them. I don't raid. On a few toons, I'm completing +20 keys which I think is a pretty good cut off for the amount of time investment I have in the game. Would it be nice to have fully maxed Condies/gem sockets? Sure. But is it necessary? Absolutely not. Do a lot of players overstate the relevance of this "chore" content and use that as an excuse for not simply playing better? The world may never know...
    New BiS for 9.1!

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  4. #4
    ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

    Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

    Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.
    God forbid the game offer rewards who like doing boring repeatable content, right? I'm fine if the trade off for this type of content means that my character will be .5% less powerful than somebody who does. I'm not pushing WF keys and I have yet to run into a situation where I failed a key for a reason which I could attribute to my lack of maxed out Condies/sockets that I couldn't instead attribute to not playing optimally.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    God forbid the game offer rewards who like doing boring repeatable content, right? I'm fine if the trade off for this type of content means that my character will be .5% less powerful than somebody who does. I'm not pushing WF keys and I have yet to run into a situation where I failed a key for a reason which I could attribute to my lack of maxed out Condies/sockets that I couldn't instead attribute to not playing optimally.
    It's about not wasting the time of humans. If it's gear/player power that is needed for high level content: require high level (or slightly lower) difficulty to achieve it.

    Time is an extremely expensive commodity to waste on mundane repetitive tasks; they're not even fun after a point; it's like playing Cookie Clicker for months.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's about not wasting the time of humans. If it's gear/player power that is needed for high level content: require high level (or slightly lower) difficulty to achieve it.

    Time is an extremely expensive commodity to waste on mundane repetitive tasks; they're not even fun after a point; it's like playing Cookie Clicker for months.
    I agree, which is precisely why I don't engage in those activities. It'd be nice if the activities I'm already doing provided the same upgrades but it's not like I'm missing out on a whole lot by not doing them. The problem is mostly player-created -- the compelling urge by people to seek out these "upgrades" is far less necessary than simply playing the game better.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The problem is mostly player-created -- the compelling urge by people to seek out these "upgrades" is far less necessary than simply playing the game better.
    No, because the problem is that you're not even able to play the game properly without those grinds (to some extend at least). E.g. if you don't farm certain covenant things: you may not be able to get the right spec for the higher difficulty of mythic+ you aim for (as an example).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    No, because the problem is that you're not even able to play the game properly without those grinds (to some extend at least). E.g. if you don't farm certain covenant things: you may not be able to get the right spec for the higher difficulty of mythic+ you aim for (as an example).
    Are you reading my posts? I haven't found a single instance where I felt my aversion from the game's grindy upgrades were preventing me from being able to complete content; yet, I'm still completing content at the top 5% of the playerbase. I'm not pushing WF keys and I'm satisfied with the challenge presented by the keys I am completing. I know that if I want to push higher I may actually need to do the content I don't particularly care to engage with but it's such a high barrier for entry that I feel it's barely worth addressing. My point is that most people who complain about these compulsory grinds aren't even close to the level I'm already at without doing it and they'd probably be a lot better off just... getting better at the game instead of forcing themselves on an optional treadmill for upgrades that aren't nearly as necessary as I'm sure they'd like to believe.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Are you reading my posts? I haven't found a single instance where I felt my aversion from the game's grindy upgrades were preventing me from being able to complete content; yet, I'm still completing content at the top 5% of the playerbase. I'm not pushing WF keys and I'm satisfied with the challenge presented by the keys I am completing. I know that if I want to push higher I may actually need to do the content I don't particularly care to engage with but it's such a high barrier for entry that I feel it's barely worth addressing. My point is that most people who complain about these compulsory grinds aren't even close to the level I'm already at without doing it and they'd probably be a lot better off just... getting better at the game instead of forcing themselves on an optional treadmill for upgrades that aren't nearly as necessary as I'm sure they'd like to believe.
    When you say plus 20 can I assume one of those is a 25? This season is rather trivial compared to last a 20 is on par with a 15 roughly last season. Mythic plus also tends to not have drawn out fights where minor gains are felt to their full effect.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

    Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.
    Korthia and even upgrading your legendaries to 262 were completely optional for the vast majority of players.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Korthia and even upgrading your legendaries to 262 were completely optional for the vast majority of players.
    Explain why that makes them positives to the game?

    They seem designed to try and force players into content they would rather not do while at the same time offer nothing to the people who normally would enjoy that content. The price to unlock upgrading items seems to line up with that logic as well.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Are you reading my posts? I haven't found a single instance where I felt my aversion from the game's grindy upgrades were preventing me from being able to complete content; yet, I'm still completing content at the top 5% of the playerbase. I'm not pushing WF keys and I'm satisfied with the challenge presented by the keys I am completing. I know that if I want to push higher I may actually need to do the content I don't particularly care to engage with but it's such a high barrier for entry that I feel it's barely worth addressing. My point is that most people who complain about these compulsory grinds aren't even close to the level I'm already at without doing it and they'd probably be a lot better off just... getting better at the game instead of forcing themselves on an optional treadmill for upgrades that aren't nearly as necessary as I'm sure they'd like to believe.
    I don't see it that way in my practical experience. For example: when I was "only" at level 19 of dungeons: I could already see that players start demanding that I use a relatively optimal spec for that level and those players aren't annoying just for the sake of it; they have done that themselves so in part it's disrespectful to them if I don't do the same.

    In general: if the devs made a game that mundane grinding is required to be optimal at a spec: it's "light"-forcing me to do that because if I do not: I'm going to find it harder to play myself and I will feel like I disrespect others that have done that and at the end of the day: it's on average more fun to have done it VS the annoyance of the grinding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Korthia and even upgrading your legendaries to 262 were completely optional for the vast majority of players.
    To me it's not optional, if I want to do anything above level 18 5mans or anything in mythic raiding. Theoretically I could but: it will end up on average more "fun" to do the grinding because the alternative is to be underpowered and to disrespect others that have done the same in the same team.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-11-16 at 07:41 AM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's about not wasting the time of humans. If it's gear/player power that is needed for high level content: require high level (or slightly lower) difficulty to achieve it.

    Time is an extremely expensive commodity to waste on mundane repetitive tasks; they're not even fun after a point; it's like playing Cookie Clicker for months.
    Its a game, what ever you do your wasting time.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Its a game, what ever you do your wasting time.
    Wrong. Gaming is a great venue to develop skills; for example if you have never lead a team before: raid leading in hard raids can make you develop decent leadership skills; even minmaxing a spec for a deeps meter: can make you develop or train on some mathematical skills if you don't have them otherwise.

    Besides: this is common knowledge from anthropologists and pediatricians: small children playing games is vital for their development because it's training; adults are not children but: games and sports and generally "fun" activities are never necessarily "just a waste of time" because they teach skills.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-11-16 at 07:53 AM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  16. #16
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  17. #17
    The weakest past of wow is the mindless easy content that you do to progress your character, indeed. Alternatives isn't bad tbh. I rather grind against a hard mob for two hours than doing "travel point to point" for half that time.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Are you reading my posts? I haven't found a single instance where I felt my aversion from the game's grindy upgrades were preventing me from being able to complete content; yet, I'm still completing content at the top 5% of the playerbase. I'm not pushing WF keys and I'm satisfied with the challenge presented by the keys I am completing. I know that if I want to push higher I may actually need to do the content I don't particularly care to engage with but it's such a high barrier for entry that I feel it's barely worth addressing. My point is that most people who complain about these compulsory grinds aren't even close to the level I'm already at without doing it and they'd probably be a lot better off just... getting better at the game instead of forcing themselves on an optional treadmill for upgrades that aren't nearly as necessary as I'm sure they'd like to believe.
    People overstate the value of those items. It was just like those little minor speed boost enchants that people would sit and claim were "MASSIVE" dps increases and would most certainly save you from raid mechanics when they were like a really insignificant boost to speed if you look at it objectively.

    Conduits from 226 to cap probably are at best for the average class a 2% dps change while there might be outliers that massively change. The sockets the same which also then depends on your armor class and if they overlap dom sockets. Unless you're pushing like 30 keys or something, your statement is correct.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I have 8 characters that I run primarily M+ with and I've never done a single Korthia daily. I've got at least KSM on each of them. I don't raid. On a few toons, I'm completing +20 keys which I think is a pretty good cut off for the amount of time investment I have in the game. Would it be nice to have fully maxed Condies/gem sockets? Sure. But is it necessary? Absolutely not. Do a lot of players overstate the relevance of this "chore" content and use that as an excuse for not simply playing better? The world may never know...
    Taking yourself only and treating the game like everyone else is you is not the best way to measure things. The fact that you have 8 characters means that you already spend a lot of time in the game and you probably have a deeper knowledge about it and developed skills to play it efficiently. But that means that YOU can do it. Not that the majority of WoW players can do it. Can they gain more from improving their skill instead of grinding better conduits? Most likely, but at the same time grinding is easier, it's also easier to target (it's hard to learn what you don't know) and to be fair might require less time in some cases.

    I could write probably ten different examples of players that you don't think about and we might not agree on some cases but in general I think the game shouldn't force you to feel like you are worse, because you don't have unlimited play time. Or not even that, you shouldn't feel worse because you can't log in every day or week. Missing a raid lockout or a weekly chest is good enough "punishment". We don't need game to punish us even further because we missed our Torghast runs this week, because we're not caught up with the renown or we skipped dailies this week and we're behind on rep and currency that unlocks sockets, conduits or w/e. I don't think the biggest pain point here is that there are chores, the problem is that they are gated so you feel forced to play every day (even if it's only a small difference in power). You feel like you are getting punished for not playing every day, which was probably the point by Blizzard, because the activity metrics are high even though people aren't having fun in the game and in the long run might unsubscribe.

    Even though you are right about the performance of gear vs skill, it's not players fault that Blizzard designed the game the way that they feel worse if they don't do boring things in a video game.

  20. #20
    Sockets and 262 conduits aren't mandantory at all for your average +20 key. They are minor dps increase, you only need them for extremely high key where everyone plays perfectly and a tiny % of dps increase could be enough to time a key. I did most of my 20 without a single 262, and my dps didn't skyrockted since i upgraded them.

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