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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gourbaak View Post
    Sockets and 262 conduits aren't mandantory at all for your average +20 key. They are minor dps increase, you only need them for extremely high key where everyone plays perfectly and a tiny % of dps increase could be enough to time a key. I did most of my 20 without a single 262, and my dps didn't skyrockted since i upgraded them.
    Just like a flask, food, weapon enchants, gems, another soulbind row, etc-etc are tiny % dps increases.

    It all adds up.
    There are RPG games where the story is what matters.
    Most aRGPs, like WoW (don't tell me it's not the best fantasy combat simulator ever) use character progression as one of the MAIN culprits of the genre.
    Most WoW players DO LIKE to progress their characters.

    Korthia grind is not an "option", is an option WITHOUT ALTERNATIVES. If you could get research & codex rep for grinding dungeons, raids or pvp, then it would be FUCKING OKAY.
    To hide this feature behind RNG (!!!) daily quests and a bland zone is a monstrosity and it should NOT exist AT ALL.

  2. #22
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Yea all these carrots on a stick are starting to get to me and the thought of grinding 9.2 on various alts just so they can remain relevant is leaving a sour taste. If I want to make sure all my alts can upgrade their legos in 9.2, I have to religiously keep them maintained for weeks on end through the new currency. I just want to be able to raid and do m+ without having to do mundane solo content shoved down my throat.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Just like a flask, food, weapon enchants, gems, another soulbind row, etc-etc are tiny % dps increases.

    It all adds up.
    There are RPG games where the story is what matters.
    Most aRGPs, like WoW (don't tell me it's not the best fantasy combat simulator ever) use character progression as one of the MAIN culprits of the genre.
    Most WoW players DO LIKE to progress their characters.

    Korthia grind is not an "option", is an option WITHOUT ALTERNATIVES. If you could get research & codex rep for grinding dungeons, raids or pvp, then it would be FUCKING OKAY.
    To hide this feature behind RNG (!!!) daily quests and a bland zone is a monstrosity and it should NOT exist AT ALL.
    Consumables and enchants are very cheap and fast to farm so it's not a problem to have them all the time even if it's not mandatory. 262 conduits and sockets aren't worth the hassle considering the time they take to farm and the tiny increase they provide. There is absolutely no need to force you to farm them if you don't want to, unless you do extremely high key.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It's about not wasting the time of humans. If it's gear/player power that is needed for high level content: require high level (or slightly lower) difficulty to achieve it.
    Time is an extremely expensive commodity to waste on mundane repetitive tasks; they're not even fun after a point; it's like playing Cookie Clicker for months.
    You clearly misundertand the whole purpose of this type of power upgrades. Players who are skilled enough don't need them maxed out; this type of power upgrades is aimed at players who are less skilled and need passive power to overcome obstacles. So you can't gate them behind content that requires skill, as skill is the thing people who need those upgrades lack.

    And this is due to Blizzard balancing content for the top players (to make it a challenge). As, with any thing in life, the best are a small % of the whole, the content would be pretty much undoable for the masses if not for those poower upgrades you can grind. Which makes sense, since: 1) you want CE players happy, but 2) you don't want to design content for a very, very small fraction of players and 3) grinding in hope of overcoming obstacles keeps people subbed.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-11-16 at 10:58 AM.

  5. #25
    Dailys are good but not as only one way to achieve the goal. Sometimes i do like do they some times not really it depends. But the worst thing is when i dont wanna do this and pushing on just because i do feel like ill lost progress.

  6. #26
    Dailys should never be a requirement for power progression.

  7. #27
    I’d argue that with some of the highest keys being done with multiple minutes left on the timer, some of the korthia upgrades weren’t even necessary there.

    I get it though, it’s not fun to have rewards tied to content you don’t care about, regardless of how minor an impact it makes. The fact that my friend that only raided at a chilled mythic level ended out quitting because he ‘had’ to do +15s each week to keep the gear rolling optimally is one example.

    I do all content so it doesn’t bother me, but I really do get why it frustrates people.

  8. #28
    Legion had it right. You grinded AP by just doing what you would do anyway: M+.

    The only flaw of the Artifact weapon system is that it wasn't accountwide.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    I have 8 characters that I run primarily M+ with and I've never done a single Korthia daily. I've got at least KSM on each of them. I don't raid. On a few toons, I'm completing +20 keys which I think is a pretty good cut off for the amount of time investment I have in the game. Would it be nice to have fully maxed Condies/gem sockets? Sure. But is it necessary? Absolutely not. Do a lot of players overstate the relevance of this "chore" content and use that as an excuse for not simply playing better? The world may never know...
    You're missing the point I think.

    To many it is fun to make your character stronger, but the activities by which our characters gain strength aren't necessarily fun. Korthia was a dreadful experience, I did it nonetheless, because I like my character as strong as possible. We don't just want to make our characters stronger to take on more challenging content, we like to make our characters stronger for the sake of it.

    I loved AP in Legion, because it constantly made my character stronger and I got AP from doing M+, which I really enjoyed.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    God forbid the game offer rewards who like doing boring repeatable content, right? I'm fine if the trade off for this type of content means that my character will be .5% less powerful than somebody who does. I'm not pushing WF keys and I have yet to run into a situation where I failed a key for a reason which I could attribute to my lack of maxed out Condies/sockets that I couldn't instead attribute to not playing optimally.
    I'm unsure what the difference is in 9.1 since I've not been playing it, but towards the end of BfA, the difference between my BiS geared Warrior with & without the chore upgrades was something like 130k DPS vs 70k DPS. Even if it's 0.5% now (which it might be, I've no idea), Blizzard can easily swing the pendulum back to extremes.

    Can't we go back to just gear & skill being the difference makers?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    To me it's not optional, if I want to do anything above level 18 5mans or anything in mythic raiding. Theoretically I could but: it will end up on average more "fun" to do the grinding because the alternative is to be underpowered and to disrespect others that have done the same in the same team.
    The biggest problem for someone that's not a world first raider in raiding isn't going to be their lack of sockets, lack of max ilvl legendaries or that their conduits aren't maxed. It's going to be how they play their character. Same applies for people doing m+, unless you're someone pushing really high keys, it doesn't really matter because how you play is what makes or break the keys.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-11-16 at 01:03 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    You clearly misundertand the whole purpose of this type of power upgrades. Players who are skilled enough don't need them maxed out; this type of power upgrades is aimed at players who are less skilled and need passive power to overcome obstacles. So you can't gate them behind content that requires skill, as skill is the thing people who need those upgrades lack.

    And this is due to Blizzard balancing content for the top players (to make it a challenge). As, with any thing in life, the best are a small % of the whole, the content would be pretty much undoable for the masses if not for those poower upgrades you can grind. Which makes sense, since: 1) you want CE players happy, but 2) you don't want to design content for a very, very small fraction of players and 3) grinding in hope of overcoming obstacles keeps people subbed.
    We are talking about different aspects of the game. I was talking also about core REQUIREMENTS of even mildly-minmaxing people; for example putting sockets on your gear or having a soulbind that is upgraded or doing torghast grinding in 9.0.

    Those are often excessive; they could last for less; it's subjective (the length of time) but for a lot of us it's pretty clear that the borrowed powers-related grinding is excessive.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-11-16 at 02:59 PM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    People overstate the value of those items. It was just like those little minor speed boost enchants that people would sit and claim were "MASSIVE" dps increases and would most certainly save you from raid mechanics when they were like a really insignificant boost to speed if you look at it objectively.

    Conduits from 226 to cap probably are at best for the average class a 2% dps change while there might be outliers that massively change. The sockets the same which also then depends on your armor class and if they overlap dom sockets. Unless you're pushing like 30 keys or something, your statement is correct.

    Even then I remember Andybrew didn't even have maxed conduits (maybe also dom shards - can't recall) on his pally when he did the first 28 and 29 in mid September.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Even then I remember Andybrew didn't even have maxed conduits (maybe also dom shards - can't recall) on his pally when he did the first 28 and 29 in mid September.
    That doesn't mean it was a terrible setup, maybe it was almost/approximately optimal anyway. Some people in this thread want to make it sound as if the game has no excessive grinding for the BASICS of gearing/player-power or at least for nobody (since it's subjective how much grinding you can stand without getting bored of the mundane).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That doesn't mean it was a terrible setup, maybe it was almost/approximately optimal anyway. Some people in this thread want to make it sound as if the game has no excessive grinding for the BASICS of gearing/player-power or at least for nobody (since it's subjective how much grinding you can stand without getting bored of the mundane).
    A bunch of 226 conduits mixed with a few conduits from HC & Mythic - IIRC. This a position that any player who had completely eschewed the grind could have been in. What grind is there for the basics? Unless you mean regular gear, and well that comes from just playing the game.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

    Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.
    I would make the inverse argument. Let skilled people show off with flashy cosmetics and grandiose titles. They don't need to be able to two-shot people to flex on them.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

    Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.
    "skill" is not a set bar.. what is hard to one person is easy to someone else and vice versa

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I would make the inverse argument. Let skilled people show off with flashy cosmetics and grandiose titles. They don't need to be able to two-shot people to flex on them.
    I also agree with this..
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Agreed.

    The Maw in 9.0 was actually fun because you could lose. The only bad thing was not being able to mount, which was just slow.
    Well... no need for such a use of words... "Fun". Let's say, it had one good player agency factor in it. The rest of that was... quite lacking in anything remotely interesting.

  18. #38
    Epic!
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    So then don't play.
    If you don't like mindless chores, stop doing them, or just stop playing altogether.
    There's people out there who like them, or at least don't mind them, and that's their prerogative.
    The only way you, Mr forum poster, can make a difference is to stop giving them your money.
    If enough of you stop, and when you cancel sub you say "too many mindless daily chores that offer nothing in terms of interesting gameplay", maybe something will change.
    Otherwise, it be like it do.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Orwell7 View Post
    Just like a flask, food, weapon enchants, gems, another soulbind row, etc-etc are tiny % dps increases.

    It all adds up.
    There are RPG games where the story is what matters.
    Most aRGPs, like WoW (don't tell me it's not the best fantasy combat simulator ever) use character progression as one of the MAIN culprits of the genre.
    Most WoW players DO LIKE to progress their characters.

    Korthia grind is not an "option", is an option WITHOUT ALTERNATIVES. If you could get research & codex rep for grinding dungeons, raids or pvp, then it would be FUCKING OKAY.
    To hide this feature behind RNG (!!!) daily quests and a bland zone is a monstrosity and it should NOT exist AT ALL.
    People LOVE the bitch about korthia being a grinf but it literally takes 15 to 25 minutes to do. That is it. In that that I get the following done

    - finish all of the days dailies
    - kill every rare
    - get every chest, mushroom,
    -get the rift chest
    - kill ever purple mob

    Their is only a certain about of mobs, chests, mushrooms that will actually drop stuff. Once you hit that than they will never drop it again until the next day.

    I get literally all that done before work every day in about the time it takes me to finish my coffee.

    Yes it is a "grind" if you are brainless and go afk every 10 seconds. After that I have literally the rest of the day after work to do anything I want.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    "skill" is not a set bar.. what is hard to one person is easy to someone else and vice versa
    To some extend it's very objective. E.g. don't give gear and power and spell skill to people by just logging in to do mundane world quests. Require some form of difficulty in an encounter that requires a slightly less level of gear/power/spell skill.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

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