we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[Kehego]

The thing is that in pokemon you get to enjoy the game when you work towards surf HM. It is part of the main plot. In wow you must do countless hours/days/weeks or awfully designed, repetitive and straight up not fun activities in order to get the reward in question. No matter how you spin it, this is not a good game design.

It hurts even more when you realise that they could make those grinds a bit more bearable, but they could not be bothered.

I used pokemon for a reason.
1) game designers put in challenges/grinds/whatever to overcome. see: surf HM
2) pokemon endgame (competitive/battle tower ish) is FULL of prep time and grinding and rng.

Raiding = competitive. Do you breed for EV/IV/Egg moves? No? Do you breed for shinies? Or do you just load up your 6 fav pokemon?
Since you're casual and lazy, just load up your 6 fav legendaries and go own lfr.

[Baine]

Agree with thread title. Biggest thing I hate in any game now-a-days (which basically every fucking multiplayer game seems to have for some reason?) is the necessity of chore activities designed to suck away hours of my life if I want to be strong and do the fun, rewarding, juicy activities.

Actually, I only do that grindy content. I don't raid or do M+ or PvP. I don't mind the repetition. I usually only do the weekly quest in Kortia. If I want real challenges, I seek them in my professional world.

[BeepBoo]

Actually, I only do that grindy content. I don't raid or do M+ or PvP. I don't mind the repetition. I usually only do the weekly quest in Kortia. If I want real challenges, I seek them in my professional world.

I don't ever enjoy doing mindless content. I don't ever "zone out". If I want to do that, I'll do it by sleeping or watching TV in the real world.

I'm someone with a damn good career, and it's still just a means to make money to fund my hobbies and make me happy outside of work. Work is work. I enjoy it well enough, but it will never be "fun" unless I get to be a racecar driver, fighter pilot, red bull <something> or whatever.

You do you, but it shouldn't be required for me to feel complete in my video games.

[Niwes]

Dailies and rares. These things are not fun at all because there are no stakes. At least in the maw you were sort of time capped so there was an aspect of strategy(you didn't have the option to simply waste your day doing every possible thing).

This kind of content needs to be given an alternative. I want the chance to defeat a difficult opponent or do a time limit quest. I want a chance at more than what the easy slow content gives at the cost of possibly failing and getting much less than what the slow content gives. The fact that the game has no-stakes chores is always the fundamental thing that puts me off and makes me stop playing because thats not a real video game and i know it and i feel like an idiot for "playing" it.

Blizzard wonder's why they don't get respect. It's because they disrespect a huge part of the player base every time they log in wanting to play a video game and are instead given chores.

agree. /10char

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ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.

agree also. /10char

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Korthia and even upgrading your legendaries to 262 were completely optional for the vast majority of players.

if this ever would be true, this would mean Blizzard even more failed. it would mean they failed so horrible, like noone ever failed.

here is why:

when the majority of players not even cared for Korthia or 262 legendaries, then

- Blizz has completely useless wasted their resources, for the majority of their customers.
- Blizz has fucked up the minority that played it and hated it, while at the same time releasing nothing useful for the majority, that did not care about Korthia/262.
- everything that Blizz did was completely useless and counterproductive for the success of the game or their profit.

see what i mean? if you are right, blizz did nothing for 80% of their customers, while pissing of the other 20%. so now we should ask why even a single person would play wow then, if that is true.

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I don't ever enjoy doing mindless content. I don't ever "zone out". If I want to do that, I'll do it by sleeping or watching TV in the real world.

I'm someone with a damn good career, and it's still just a means to make money to fund my hobbies and make me happy outside of work. Work is work. I enjoy it well enough, but it will never be "fun" unless I get to be a racecar driver, fighter pilot, red bull <something> or whatever.

You do you, but it shouldn't be required for me to feel complete in my video games.

well said. sometimes it feels to me, that the problem is, that Blizzard (or their data) missinterpret that „zone out“ gaming style as the defacto standard ppl want.

yes, maybe more millenials like to „zone out“ in a video game, than generation X ppl. yes, maybe the data tells Blizz they have to cater to a millenial mindset. yes, maybe most millenials are zero interessted in a 16 year old game. hmm…

in short: i am not sure HOW well Blizz knows their customer base.

[Toby451]

I have been playing this game long enough to know that vast majority of the playerbase does NOT want difficult content. They made heroic dungeons ever so slightly more difficult at the beginning of Cataclysm and it was a massive shitstorm of hatred and negativity towards Blizzard.


Hell just look at this expansion even. Early Torghast was pretty difficult doing layer 8 and they nerfed that quick after all of the complaints.

[epigramx]

252 conduits are only a point of discussion for the criminally lazy.

and, there's nothing wrong with being lazy, but you can't be competitive and lazy at the same time. Not if you're a rational thinker, at least.

You are off topic. I was talking to a person that was implying you are criminally "crazy"(not lazy) if you care about conduits. I always grind for shit like that even if it's annoying so laziness has nothing to do with it.

[Freighter]

Whatever; keep thinking wanting 252 conduits or other such EXTREMELY basic "min maxing" attributes is too die-hard for you.

It's subjective of course but to me: that's not just casual, that's so casual that such people should not even do heroic raiding.

You don't need 252 conduits to do heroic raiding. Your performance is dragged down way more by not knowing how to play your class than it is by conduits not being 252 unless you're someone going for world firsts or pushing high keys in m+.

When you're pretty much maxing your performance, that's when the conduits will start actually mattering but the vast majority of players in WoW will never reach that stage. Instead they think their lack of performance is due to conduits not being 252 and their legendary not being maxed and so forth. They'll never concede that it's their lack of knowledge about how to play the class or spec they're playing that's the major reason why their performance sucks.

[epigramx]

You don't need 252 conduits to do heroic raiding.

Stop talking to a strawman. I repeatedly told you that it's not about if I can do it; it's the if we don't do it: we'll be considered jerks and be kicked out of raid teams anyway; so we have to do it to be optimal.

It seems you like that strawman because your true purpose isn't the discussion but to call others "noobs".

[Chipped coin]

You don't need 252 conduits to do heroic raiding. Your performance is dragged down way more by not knowing how to play your class than it is by conduits not being 252 unless you're someone going for world firsts or pushing high keys in m+.

When you're pretty much maxing your performance, that's when the conduits will start actually mattering but the vast majority of players in WoW will never reach that stage. Instead they think their lack of performance is due to conduits not being 252 and their legendary not being maxed and so forth. They'll never concede that it's their lack of knowledge about how to play the class or spec they're playing that's the major reason why their performance sucks.

So why are 252 conduits a positive...?

It isnt about if its needed or if it isn't. The question is how is this in anyway positive for the game or the players?

I can't imagine the people who enjoy world content and the people who value conduits greatly overlap.

[Relapses]

So why are 252 conduits a positive...?

It isnt about if its needed or if it isn't. The question is how is this in anyway positive for the game or the players?

I can't imagine the people who enjoy world content and the people who value conduits greatly overlap.

The argument isn't that they're positive -- it's that they're not nearly as negative as the people who dislike the current system are making them out to be.

[Chipped coin]

The argument isn't that they're positive -- it's that they're not nearly as negative as the people who dislike the current system are making them out to be.

It is one and the same though? If the best argument for them existing is " well you can just ignore them" I would argue they shouldn't exist in the first place.

Worse we have a better working version of this system. They were called glyphs. They worked the exact same way without long tedious grinds.

[Relapses]

It is one and the same though? If the best argument for them existing is " well you can just ignore them" I would argue they shouldn't exist in the first place.

Worse we have a better working version of this system. They were called glyphs. They worked the exact same way without long tedious grinds.

To me, the net positive -- giving something for people who enjoy world content some form of a player power upgrade (albeit a very small one) outweighs the negative -- players feeling compelled to grind content they don't like for that upgrade. I get the argument against it -- personally, I'd prefer if it weren't in the game or obtainable in ways which weren't tied to boring repeatable world content but let's not kid ourselves. One of the biggest complaints we often see from the community is that Blizzard fails to give "meaningful rewards" to people who enjoy world content; that's exactly what this system is.

[Chipped coin]

To me, the net positive -- giving something for people who enjoy world content some form of a player power upgrade (albeit a very small one) outweighs the negative -- players feeling compelled to grind content they don't like for that upgrade. I get the argument against it -- personally, I'd prefer if it weren't in the game or obtainable in ways which weren't tied to boring repeatable world content but let's not kid ourselves. One of the biggest complaints we often see from the community is that Blizzard fails to give "meaningful rewards" to people who enjoy world content; that's exactly what this system is.

I don't think it is meaningful to them. I don't really support world content being given high powered rewards as the difficulty never suits it. People who complain about world content rewards tend to demand outrageous rewards like mythic raid gear. I don't think they particularly care or even notice conduits.

I admit outside of cosmetics or single player instanced content like visions or mage tower I have no idea how you make a solo player gear progression path. It can't just be do mindlessly easy content though.

[Relapses]

I don't think it is meaningful to them. I don't really support world content being given high powered rewards as the difficulty never suits it. People who complain about world content rewards tend to demand outrageous rewards like mythic raid gear. I don't think they particularly care or even notice conduits.

You don't think people care or notice when the numbers on their abilities go up? Weird argument to make, but okay. I'll say that the ultra casual probably (definitely) care less about the impact it has on their gameplay but to say they don't realize the benefit of the number going up is a bit strange.

[Kehego]

LOL we talking about islands being bad and you turn it into a flex cos you a mythic raider pro or whatever you think you are.
Lacking in real life achievements perhaps?

pretty sensitive huh?
stop projecting. Its noone's fault but your own if you lack self control in a video game

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You don't think people care or notice when the numbers on their abilities go up? Weird argument to make, but okay. I'll say that the ultra casual probably (definitely) care less about the impact it has on their gameplay but to say they don't realize the benefit of the number going up is a bit strange.

watching my growing inferno go from 18% per tick to 20% per tick gave me the greatest chubby i've had in 15 years.

[Chipped coin]

You don't think people care or notice when the numbers on their abilities go up? Weird argument to make, but okay. I'll say that the ultra casual probably (definitely) care less about the impact it has on their gameplay but to say they don't realize the benefit of the number going up is a bit strange.

I don't think they really do with conduits. To be frank I doubt many actively know what each of them do. Take crush the ramparts... does your average player even know what it does?

I think they are naturally more gear focused over system focused.

[ulululu]

Are you reading my posts?

Well, you obviously just make too much sense here. From what you said so far I can tell pretty surely I'm playing a comparable amount of time and dungeons like you, though I did Korthia in the beginning daily until exalted rep + rank 6 - I'm running ~ 24ish keys with my highest so far being +26 intime on both weekly affixes and still you are absolutely right. It's not necessarily required. It helps, a 252 conduit is benefitiary, yes - but in the end it isn't mandatory.

Have some few alts that have never seen korthia with the highest at 2.5k rio currently and I'm okay with that.

Have a great day/night.

[munkeyinorbit]

You call me narcissistic and you keep mentioning how you are in the top 100 without anyone asking you to and I keep mentioning I'm in an extremely casual guild; stop talking to the mirror; I have never once said to you I am "pro".

What I'm saying is that even players that are not as pro are not going to say "I don't care: I'll just do whatever: if you are pro you're gonna kill the boss anyway"; that's absolute nonsense; even low progress guilds min max a little.

Besides: and that ends the subtopic for a lot of us: our opinion does not matter because it's obviously disrespectful to almost every guild to not even min max marginally; even people that only raid-log do some minmaxing.

I know lots of players who minmax and lots that don't. I am not a minmaxer. I go as far as check the new patch guide for my spec, see if there's something stupid I'm missing and leave it until the next patch. I have been known to reject some talents because I just dont like using them. I have also been known to reject a whole spec because I thought it was boring. Yet week in and week out I would turn up to raid with the same players I've played with for 10 years and absolutely spank them. My gear is worse, my borrowed powers are behind and I don't research my class. Why am I beating these other minmaxers? Gear is irrelevant if you're a shit player. Playing better will always be far superior then getting gear.

By the way. If you are being inspected and called out it is probably because you're a bad player. The guys playing well don't get called out.

[Kallisto]

Why though...?

It all loops back to that... why have this? Top end players don't like it and I doubt heroic and under raiders even change their conduits. This seems like a problem looking for a solution.

Because people asked for things to do, but they won't do things that don't give something that's linked to power or is super easy (like very late legion mage tower), but at the same time when it has power attached to it, even if it is 0.00001% chance of giving 0.00001% power increase it suddenly becomes a forced chore.

[epigramx]

I know lots of players who minmax and lots that don't. I am not a minmaxer. I go as far as check the new patch guide for my spec, see if there's something stupid I'm missing and leave it until the next patch. I have been known to reject some talents because I just dont like using them. I have also been known to reject a whole spec because I thought it was boring. Yet week in and week out I would turn up to raid with the same players I've played with for 10 years and absolutely spank them. My gear is worse, my borrowed powers are behind and I don't research my class. Why am I beating these other minmaxers? Gear is irrelevant if you're a shit player. Playing better will always be far superior then getting gear.

By the way. If you are being inspected and called out it is probably because you're a bad player. The guys playing well don't get called out.

You are blatantly wrong on multiple levels; I'm not very surprised because most forum replies in threads like this aren't seeking the truth in reality; they mainly want to brag how good they are and all others are supposedly "noobs".

First of all: sure: don't get the talents you can't use or don't want to use if that will make you better (one could argue that makes you a bad player but let's assume it doesn't); however: passive stats are not that.

When it gets to passive stats and you refusing to use them at all: it's just extremely offensive even to marginally "not totally casual" guilds; can't you even go to a vendor to get a gem or something(?); don't be lazy.