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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    How is this my burden of proof? You claimed to lose your raid spot if you don't grind out 252 coduits, I simmed my char to show that another rank of dps conduits reward such little benefit that it doesn't matter outside of world first raiding. You claimed defensive conduits are extremely important to have maxed... back up your claim as I did mine.

    I wasn't talking that literally. But in general you will be considered a jerk if you start saying those things like: 'I don't need better conduits; I don't need passive stats; I'm so good without them', in any guild that is even marginally trying to be competitive (usually).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    you get 226 conduits and the jump to 239 is about the same, slightly less.
    That whole comparison was false to begin with. E.g. defensives are extremely important and he only cared about "deeps". And he didn't test all specs/classes so the "test" was terrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    you're literally making shit up, as in noone could even tell the itemlevel of your conduits unless you put in a simc report.
    The 2% per tick from growing inferno, or the 5 seconds off blur really won't make or break you, and is far less of a difference than actually playing properly. Like you 100% can perform at renown 57+239 conduits, literally doesnt matter nearly as much as you goobers think it does.

    but, alas, its mmo-c so i'd be a liar if I said I expected something different.
    You imply you are a pro, and you do rookie mistakes. Defensives are extremely important and you only care about "deeps" (or you randomly call them "unimportant" without evidence).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I wasn't talking that literally. But in general you will be considered a jerk if you start saying those things like: 'I don't need better conduits; I don't need passive stats; I'm so good without them', in any guild that is even marginally trying to be competitive (usually).

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    That whole comparison was false to begin with. E.g. defensives are extremely important and he only cared about "deeps". And he didn't test all specs/classes so the "test" was terrible.

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    You imply you are a pro, and you do rookie mistakes. Defensives are extremely important and you only care about "deeps" (or you randomly call them "unimportant" without evidence).
    lmao but I'm not a lazy shitter on the forums complaining #1, I have *all* my condies 252 months before 9.1.5
    But as someone that has all the 252's, i'ma let you know that you 100% won't notice the diff between 239 and 252, far less 226. 226 is fine for shitters; if you have 226 at this point you're a shitter, won't stop you from pushing heroic raid or 15s or whatever you do as a shitter

    If you're legit complaining about not having maxed conduits how many months into the patch, you didn't care, don't do relevant content, and don't need them.
    no guild that is still "progging" is competitive. No guild that is competitive is bitching about defensive condies when the content drops them; no guild that is remotely competitive doesn't do ish like adamant vaults which is hardly a grind.

    So yeah, you're bad, you're wrong, conduits *literally do not matter* past 226 for 90% of the playerbase, including and especially you. As long as you have the right ones equipped, you're 100% fine.

    (side note, you puppet; you literally can't sim defensives, so their value increases if you suck, and decreases if you don't. More wipes are caused by personal failure than by the raid being ticked down/something an extra 10% of the 5% the defensive conduit would prevent)

    Damage is also more important than defensives honestly at this point as well, since more damage = less dangerous mechanics. Who the fuck cares if you can take 5% less damage if you can just kill the boss before you need to potentially take 5% less damage?

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    won't notice the diff between 239 and 252
    Off topic; the discussion has nothing to do if you have the skill to notice it yourself or not; it has nothing to do if you can do it because "you are pro and don't need them". Those are tangents people use to go off topic because they want to feel "pro".

    The point was that: even if you are "pro" it will be considered a jerk move by even marginally optimal guilds if you tell them "I don't need to optimize more: I'm pro"; that is what makes grinding for borrowed systems a practical necessity.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Stop talking to a strawman. I repeatedly told you that it's not about if I can do it; it's the if we don't do it: we'll be considered jerks and be kicked out of raid teams anyway; so we have to do it to be optimal.
    It's not a strawman. You're claiming you need it, whether it be for performance or for guilds thinking it matters, you still say you need it. That's just false. Stop playing with those guilds if they require such things and aren't going for top kills in the world.

    The guilds on heroic level wouldn't even be able to tell whether you even have conduits inserted or not from your performance.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Off topic; the discussion has nothing to do if you have the skill to notice it yourself or not; it has nothing to do if you can do it because "you are pro and don't need them". Those are tangents people use to go off topic because they want to feel "pro".

    The point was that: even if you are "pro" it will be considered a jerk move by even marginally optimal guilds if you tell them "I don't need to optimize more: I'm pro"; that is what makes grinding for borrowed systems a practical necessity.
    counter point: marginally optimal guilds already cleared the content and literally do not care

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    It's not a strawman. You're claiming you need it
    There's no point "discussing" with you anymore. You are explicitly told it's not about if I can do it but that it would be suboptimal to not go through the borrowed power systems and you'd be considered a jerk by many guilds on top otherwise and you insist "nah: you just can't do it".

    So it's pretty clear your true purpose here is not the truth; you just want to say "I'm pro and you are noob"; it's a typical "argument" in gaming forums so I'm not that surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    counter point: marginally optimal guilds already cleared the content and literally do not care
    Irrelevant, we're not talking about farm only, but generally (which includes progress).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    There's no point "discussing" with you anymore. You are explicitly told it's not about if I can do it but that it would be suboptimal to not go through the borrowed power systems and you'd be considered a jerk by many guilds on top otherwise and you insist "nah: you just can't do it".

    So it's pretty clear your true purpose here is not the truth; you just want to say "I'm pro and you are noob"; it's a typical "argument" in gaming forums so I'm not that surprised.
    I guess you'd rather be abused by the leadership in a guild just to get some shot at some loot rather than leaving an abusive environment and that's a position you put yourself in. That's the truth, those guilds requiring these things when not being anywhere close to world first raiders are abusive. If they had no way to check, they wouldn't even be able to tell if you've got them or not.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-11-25 at 12:12 PM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    It comes down to why do these things even exists?

    Can you honestly tell me anything positive would be lost if conduits were simply removed and their effects baked into character classes ?
    They exist to give temporary power during an expansion. If they keep everything "baked in" from expansions, we get power bloat and would force them to do squishes of varying sorts more often than would actually be needed.

    The problem is not conduits in and of themselves. They are fine. It is how they were implemented which is the problem. Inconsistent RNG drops, upgrades being 100% random, low drop-rate upgrade items, etc.

    If we could use gold or some other in-game currency to buy the ones we want or buy the upgrade items then it would be a different story. Even if they had like a 100g random upgrade item and a 1500g one that upgraded a specific one it would be better than what we have now.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    I guess you'd rather be abused by the leadership in a guild just to get some shot at some loot rather than leaving an abusive environment and that's a position you put yourself in. That's the truth, those guilds requiring these things when not being anywhere close to world first raiders are abusive. If they had no way to check, they wouldn't even be able to tell if you've got them or not.
    And the strawman continues to another strawman. Nobody told you I feel abused by the leaders; I'm often one of those leaders; I often find total jerks those that tell to my guild "I'm not gonna get that passive stat: I'm pro; I can do without it".

    What you don't get is the big picture; this game is a grand competition of all the guilds; if you don't optimize: you'll progress less (which is why the borrowed systems are annoying: it's a mundane grind that you must do to compete properly).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #170
    Wow needs to not feel punishing if you miss a day of whatever daily shit you are supposed to do at the time.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I'm often one of those leaders;
    Oh, so you're one of the abusive leaders. Now I get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    What you don't get is the big picture; this game is a grand competition of all the guilds;
    Oh, do tell. What kind of competition are you doing? World firsts? Are you even in the hall of fame? What are your guilds achievements?
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    if you don't optimize: you'll progress less (which is why the borrowed systems are annoying: it's a mundane grind that you must do to compete properly).
    Conduits not being max are irrelevant to your progress or the lack thereof.
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-11-25 at 01:41 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    Oh, so you're one of the abusive leaders. Now I get it.


    Oh, do tell. What kind of competition are you doing? World firsts? Are you even in the hall of fame? What are your guilds achievements?


    Conduits not being max are irrelevant to your progress.

    You really have to learn how to form arguments. You keep posting strawmen arguments and now you entered the ad hominem fallacy territory and the authority fallacy territory too but also you seem to project a little too.

    "Abuse" is to enter a guild and tell them "I'm so pro I don't need to use that buf" so "abuse" is in the eye of the beholder; also: whether I'm the top 1 guild or the top 1 million has nothing to do with if I'm right.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You really have to learn how to form arguments. You keep posting strawmen arguments and now you entered the ad hominem fallacy territory and the authority fallacy territory too but also you seem to project a little too.
    You don't even know what either of those are, I'm basing what I posted of your own posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    "Abuse" is to enter a guild and tell them "I'm so pro I don't need to use that buf" so "abuse" is in the eye of the beholder; also: whether I'm the top 1 guild or the top 1 million has nothing to do with if I'm right.
    You're the one stating the game is a competition of guilds, not me. I wholly reject that notion. I expected you to have achieved something in the game that's noteworthy if you think the game is about a competition (of guilds).

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    Wow needs to not feel punishing if you miss a day of whatever daily shit you are supposed to do at the time.
    I feel like this is a problem created by the community and less by Blizzard. Unless you're doin some major major cutting edge content missing it really isn't gonna be an issue.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    You don't even know what either of those are, I'm basing what I posted of your own posts.


    You're the one stating the game is a competition of guilds, not me. I wholly reject that notion. I expected you to have achieved something in the game that's noteworthy if you think the game is about a competition (of guilds).
    Your posts are consistently talking of imaginary concepts. For example you don't know anything about me and you claim I don't understand what certain phrases I used are; maybe you WANT to believe I don't know what they mean; have you considered that possibility?

    That trend appears to be consistent in your writing; for example you insist to imply I'm a "noob"; it appears your true purpose here is to tell us you are "pro" (but you do rookie mistakes like refusing to use basic buffs).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    you don't know anything about me
    You, yourself, said you're one of those leaders I was talking about.

    You also made that thread about wanting people who don't want to carry you in m+ to get banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That trend appears to be consistent in your writing; for example you insist to imply I'm a "noob"; it appears your true purpose here is to tell us you are "pro" (but you do rookie mistakes like refusing to use basic buffs).
    Well, you're the one thinking the game is a competition of guilds. Something that I wholly reject. If it's a competition, what have you achieved that warrants such an attitude towards min-maxing?
    Last edited by Freighter; 2021-11-25 at 02:17 PM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Off topic; the discussion has nothing to do if you have the skill to notice it yourself or not; it has nothing to do if you can do it because "you are pro and don't need them". Those are tangents people use to go off topic because they want to feel "pro".

    The point was that: even if you are "pro" it will be considered a jerk move by even marginally optimal guilds if you tell them "I don't need to optimize more: I'm pro"; that is what makes grinding for borrowed systems a practical necessity.
    My friend... I don't think *you* even know what "marginally optimal guilds" even are.
    You are the person that thinks there is a quote: massive end-quote gain in switching domination sockets for open-world farming.

    there is no such thing as a practical necessity, it's in your head and probably whatever shitty guys you hang around with.
    Most of the community just doesn't care if you are 24/7 grinding shit or not, no matter where they are playing.
    LFR, Normal, Heroic or even Mythic.

    Do it if you think it's necessary.. but don't assume anyone (or rather, *everyone*) else thinks you are an ass-hat for not farming content you don't want when you still deliver the necessary abilities to beat the content you are playing for/against. As for your defensive conduits. You are looking at a 10% of a 10% difference. How often do you drop down to 1% HP and think "Good thing I had this conduit, otherwise progress would not be possible"? Keep in mind that everyone has these conduits, They're not just maxxed.
    Everyone is well aware how these things are farmed up, how tedious it is, and everyone knows how little they actually provide in comparison.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-11-25 at 04:26 PM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Nobody told you I feel abused by the leaders; I'm often one of those leaders; I often find total jerks those that tell to my guild "I'm not gonna get that passive stat: I'm pro; I can do without it".
    Nope, they are not telling you they're "pro; I can do without" they are telling you "the difference is so fucking small that only pros (=world first raiders) actually need and benefit from 1 more rank of conduits". The jerk here is you.

  19. #179
    I'm done explaining it. If people insist to tell others "I don't need more passive bufs; I'm already a good player; it's bad players that need them" then let them do that.

    Sooner or later they'll see what they're doing anyway.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Nope, they are not telling you they're "pro; I can do without" they are telling you "the difference is so fucking small that only pros (=world first raiders) actually need and benefit from 1 more rank of conduits". The jerk here is you.
    That isn't the case... the benefits add up pretty quickly across a read both on healing required and dmg during burst phases. World first likely doesn't need it but most people can't snap their fingers and instantly have the perfect comp that was chain fed half a dozen heroic clears the first raid week of mythic either.

    Unless your guild can run a perfect comp on every boss fight small bonuses add up. Trying to claim it doesn't just shows a disconnect with the harder difficulty of the game. Conduits alongside sockets are blizzards desperate attempt to keep world content from being a ghost town. It isn't good game design.

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