we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[Tyris Flare]

As I said earlier, unless you're pushing really high keys or raiding world first, it's irrelevant what you do in that regard. How you play will always be the biggest influence on whether you can or can't do something.

Anyone who thinks you need to do these things is not a casual.

I'd stay far away from someone who isn't pushing high keys or going for world first raiding requiring people to go grinding. It pisses me off beyond belief when people have no idea about the game they're playing and think that if people just got higher ilvl legendary, a socket or anything like that it will suddenly make them some gods at playing the game. It won't, it might be a very minor increase in hps/dps/survivability but you will still struggle to beat what you struggled to beat before because none of these things matter more than your bad play.

Because a lot of this stuff is a social signifier more than a bonus. Aka, if you are in a raiding group and only 5 of the team has grinded out sockets, it's a signifier to everyone that they are the ones willing to put in the time to give the group an advantage, however small, and everyone else is not.

there is a social component to all of this stuff beyond just numbers.

(though that said, this entire game is about adding on many small bonuses; skipping out on a few doesn't really matter, but it adds up, especially if you want to parse well)

[Ringthane]

Dailies and rares. These things are not fun at all because there are no stakes. At least in the maw you were sort of time capped so there was an aspect of strategy(you didn't have the option to simply waste your day doing every possible thing).

This kind of content needs to be given an alternative. I want the chance to defeat a difficult opponent or do a time limit quest. I want a chance at more than what the easy slow content gives at the cost of possibly failing and getting much less than what the slow content gives. The fact that the game has no-stakes chores is always the fundamental thing that puts me off and makes me stop playing because thats not a real video game and i know it and i feel like an idiot for "playing" it.

Blizzard wonder's why they don't get respect. It's because they disrespect a huge part of the player base every time they log in wanting to play a video game and are instead given chores.

Then don't. Do not play, if you're so upset by it. The developers aren't going to give you everything you want just because you made a thread to complain about it. They're not there to kowtow to your every whim and fancy.

People always say when I bring this up "that's not what we're asking for" or some other specious nonsense. I don't care. If you don't like the game, don't play the game. I don't like Overwatch. I don't play it. It's that simple.

[Twdft]

Then don't. Do not play, if you're so upset by it. The developers aren't going to give you everything you want just because you made a thread to complain about it. They're not there to kowtow to your every whim and fancy.

People always say when I bring this up "that's not what we're asking for" or some other specious nonsense. I don't care. If you don't like the game, don't play the game. I don't like Overwatch. I don't play it. It's that simple.

Time isn't endless. People who love to raid and run m+ are spending a lot of time in the game anyway, and are not very likely to unsub. I just want to get to max level and then go dungeoneering. Why do I have to do mindless grinds on top of that? With every char again? Just give me all the power I need to beat the challenges in the content where those challenges are.

I understand Blizzard wants everyone to play through the story, and I gladly do that. Give me some fun leveling to max, that's great. I will also do all the mindless grinds for cosmetics. Once. On my own time with some trash alt. But please Blizzard for the love of the light don't hide player power behind mindless grinds.

[Goatfish]

The world first Mythic Sylvanas kill was performed by Echo wearing on average 241.6 ilvl gear. Most of them had 4 shards. The lowest ilvl dps was wearing exactly 6 pieces of gear (belt/235 legendary ring/ring/trinket/back/offhand) that didn't come from the 9.1 patch in the heroic Sylvanas log from 4 days before the world first mythic kill when his overall ilvl was 229 - but it had increased to 240.8 on the mythic kill. 6 out of 16 is 37.5%. That's not "mostly Nathria gear" for even the heroic kill, let alone the mythic one.

"Oh, but that's just Echo, they were lucky with gear!"
Well, the world second kill had average ilvl of 242.9.
World 3 then? 242.6.
World 4? 242.8.
World 5? 241.4.

I'd like to see a record of these people killing Mythic Sylvanas in mostly 226-233 gear from the previous patch, because I certainly couldn't find it.

Sorry I don't have time-dated screenshots of the gear people were wearing at the exact moment of her death. I assure you if I did, that more than 50% of the gear being used was still from Nathria era. If you have that data, you can go back and count the fucking pieces yourself, because that is what majority means. In the time-frame in which Sylvanas dropped, it would take an absurd amount of luck to get geared to the level that baddies think you NEED to be in order to kill her. Almost every world first race disproves your argument.

Honestly you just sound like you're whining that not having ilvl means you can't be world first. You keep wanting to blame gear for you (or others) being terrible at the game. If you really want proof of this, feel free to look up my alt monk Kazzel-Kel'thuzad on WarcraftLogs. I have a majority of logs in the top 10% of all (and by ilvl) mistweaver monks both damage and healing all between 220 and 242 ilvl, most of them gained playing non-meta covenant, many without perfect gems and enchants. The reason for this is because I play on the level of the top 5-10% of raiders, and therefore don't need the same crutch to run content that average people do.

The truth of playing with actually good players, is that they don't give a shit what you play or how you play it as long as the numbers you are producing are good. 16 crit rating missing because you didn't equip a gem isn't going to be the factor of a boss dying. If you get to the point that your raid is doing all the mechanics perfectly and you are still missing damage, then it might be an issue. Until that point, better play is going to trump gear in all but the most extreme circumstances. It's not that hard a concept that you would rather have a rogue doing 2k dps than a rogue doing 6k dps if the guy doing 6k can't pay attention to interrupts and positioning but the 2k guy does.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I would agree to a chore content if there is some point of doing it Lore wise. For example if this would help Azeroth is some way then yes, othervise it’s a waste of time.

[Stormwolf64]

One thing is for sure. Regardless what blizzard would do people would complain. Too much chore then the complaints is about there being too much chores. Too much difficult content the complaints would be how annoying it would be to daily have to focus and gearing feels unrewarding and people would miss some menial tasks.

They should keep their boring tasks as they're required, but they need to focus on making them fun and diverse. Introduce new gameplay mechanics, and perhaps make them more difficult too. Maybe even let you select hard or easy for some types of challenges.

[Eosia]

Plenty of people complained about it back then. This funny thing called nostalgia, however, prevents most people from remembering that tiny important detail.

Honestly, I think the people who complain about them are the same people who complain there's nothing to do. They just don't really want to play.

Plenty of people complained about it and the first iteration of dailies was the absolute worst. Some of the rewards needed you to farm rep of a faction that was hidden behind a rep grind of another faction. meaning you couldn't even start at day 1. MoP dailies meant that if you missed even one day you were behind other players without any chance to ever catch up (yes, self inflicted pressure).

MoP had the artificial gating anyways. You were limited to like 12 dailies each day IIRC. So you already had to be strategic about which ones you did.

[Nalam the Venom]

3 is literally 3 too many

Never did a single island throughout BFA, How were they?

[Swnem]

But it was more than present, with bells on, during the height of the game. People look back on that era of the game as "the best" still to this day. If BC/Wrath was so great where the populations climbed to the highest before Cataclysm hit, then Dailies contributed to it. No one complained about them before and back then they were mandatory as they had enchants, etc. from them that were needed like the Sons of Hodir.

Unlike what you try to pass as. The design of the game back then and today is completely different and for the worst. Also, the games industry was very different.

The best era of gaming is when the design fits the needs of the players.
Back then, mmo's were new. There were no expectations, gaming was younger. Just walking in a big world was an amazing experience. Seeing others in the game world was an amazing experience. Twitter, youtube and facebook weren't as mainstream as they were. Heck, people were even nicer. It was another world, not the same one we are in now.

Now, we have countless open worlds, mmo's are not the hot new thing. We have choice. We want the experience to be modern, to evolve. Gamers from back at the beggining have aged, have different needs, have more options.

Your oversimplication of the situation is well... crude to say the least. You need to think harder about why people are disatisfied.
It's not a simple "it worked back then, so it must work now". WE are different. This is an old game failing to keep up with the times. Instead of changing with it's audience it's a game trying to force it's audience into times long pass that are not sustainable anymore.

[epigramx]

As I said earlier, unless you're pushing really high keys or raiding world first, it's irrelevant what you do in that regard. How you play will always be the biggest influence on whether you can or can't do something.

Anyone who thinks you need to do these things is not a casual.

I'd stay far away from someone who isn't pushing high keys or going for world first raiding requiring people to go grinding. It pisses me off beyond belief when people have no idea about the game they're playing and think that if people just got higher ilvl legendary, a socket or anything like that it will suddenly make them some gods at playing the game. It won't, it might be a very minor increase in hps/dps/survivability but you will still struggle to beat what you struggled to beat before because none of these things matter more than your bad play.

Whatever; keep thinking wanting 252 conduits or other such EXTREMELY basic "min maxing" attributes is too die-hard for you.

It's subjective of course but to me: that's not just casual, that's so casual that such people should not even do heroic raiding.

[Eosia]

Unlike what you try to pass as. The design of the game back then and today is completely different and for the worst. Also, the games industry was very different.

At a root level, no it is not. It is still the same at its core. Blizzard has not fundamentally changed it like Sony Online Excrement pulled with Star Wars Galaxies with their "Combat Upgrade" and "New Game Enhancements" publishes. The expansion long "borrowed power" thing introduced in Legion, or WoD if you count the garrison as such, does not change this.

The best era of gaming is when the design fits the needs of the players.
Back then, mmo's were new. There were no expectations, gaming was younger. Just walking in a big world was an amazing experience. Seeing others in the game world was an amazing experience. Twitter, youtube and facebook weren't as mainstream as they were. Heck, people were even nicer. It was another world, not the same one we are in now.

I know. Half the time these forums, the WoW forums, and /r/WoW read like /r/EntitledPeople except we're not hearing the stories of people encountering EPs, we're reading stories written by EPs.

Now, we have countless open worlds, mmo's are not the hot new thing. We have choice. We want the experience to be modern, to evolve. Gamers from back at the beggining have aged, have different needs, have more options.

And Blizzard has made the game more elastic to account for that:

Raids are no longer tuned to you having to have 39 other people all available at the same time. This dropped to 25 in BC and then to 10/25 in Wrath. At the tail end of Cata they introduced LFR so you can raid anytime you want and the system will find 24 other people to raid with you. Then, in MoP, they developed the "Flex" difficulty level which was between LFR and Normal in which the raid adapted to however many people between 10 and 30 were in the raid. Flex was then dropped as a difficulty and instead integrated into Normal/Heroics. When Patch 6.0 dropped, Mythic difficulty was added in catering to players who wanted a return to Vanilla/BC raiding style with a static 20 person tuning.

Daily Quests became World Quests that rotate in and out at various intervals. Rather than doing the same 5 quests over and over each day, you can pick and choose and do the ones you like. The Emissary system that came with it also lessened the chores because you got about a quest's worth of rep from doing the WQ and then got a big chunk for turning in the Emissary attached to it.

But they are not going to remove underlying systems that are core to the genre. You STILL will have to level. You STILL have to earn reputation. You STILL need to grind things.

Your oversimplication of the situation is well... crude to say the least. You need to think harder about why people are disatisfied.
It's not a simple "it worked back then, so it must work now". WE are different. This is an old game failing to keep up with the times. Instead of changing with it's audience it's a game trying to force it's audience into times long pass that are not sustainable anymore.

There comes a point where Blizzard cannot and will not change the game to cater to the whims and entitlement of players. Period. That is how games get destroyed. The aforementioned Star Wars Galaxies NGE proved that one back in 2005 when in the space of a month 50% of the playerbase walked and SOE was issuing refunds for Trials of Obi-wan.

Point to me an MMO that has no grinding whatsoever. No Dailies. No "Chores". I await your answer.

[Log Cabin]

Whatever; keep thinking wanting 252 conduits or other such EXTREMELY basic "min maxing" attributes is too die-hard for you.

It's subjective of course but to me: that's not just casual, that's so casual that such people should not even do heroic raiding.

It comes down to why do these things even exists?

Can you honestly tell me anything positive would be lost if conduits were simply removed and their effects baked into character classes ?

[kamuimac]

Time isn't endless. People who love to raid and run m+ are spending a lot of time in the game anyway, and are not very likely to unsub. I just want to get to max level and then go dungeoneering. Why do I have to do mindless grinds on top of that? With every char again? Just give me all the power I need to beat the challenges in the content where those challenges are.

I understand Blizzard wants everyone to play through the story, and I gladly do that. Give me some fun leveling to max, that's great. I will also do all the mindless grinds for cosmetics. Once. On my own time with some trash alt. But please Blizzard for the love of the light don't hide player power behind mindless grinds.

you dont though . you never had to do this this entire expansion . both renown and some potency conduits has been dropping from m+ and raids.

all you had to do is literaly do dungeons.

that extra grind amounted to maybe 5 % power at best. worthless unless you want to push above 20s or get CE - and that like top 1 % of players.

[epigramx]

It comes down to why do these things even exists?

Can you honestly tell me anything positive would be lost if conduits were simply removed and their effects baked into character classes ?

Nothing. I want them gone too. I was pointing out the WAY it makes it frustrating for a lot of us; we must do them in order to perform (as well as possible) and if we don't we would be considered jerks and kicked out of raid guilds anyway.

[Zyky]

God forbid the game offer rewards who like doing boring repeatable content, right? I'm fine if the trade off for this type of content means that my character will be .5% less powerful than somebody who does. I'm not pushing WF keys and I have yet to run into a situation where I failed a key for a reason which I could attribute to my lack of maxed out Condies/sockets that I couldn't instead attribute to not playing optimally.

So you bypass what he said to try and push garbage. He never said to remove them or make it so there's no rewards, he literally said that there should be no power gains tied to them.

[Ogarash]

Dailies and rares. These things are not fun at all because there are no stakes. At least in the maw you were sort of time capped so there was an aspect of strategy(you didn't have the option to simply waste your day doing every possible thing).

This kind of content needs to be given an alternative. I want the chance to defeat a difficult opponent or do a time limit quest. I want a chance at more than what the easy slow content gives at the cost of possibly failing and getting much less than what the slow content gives. The fact that the game has no-stakes chores is always the fundamental thing that puts me off and makes me stop playing because thats not a real video game and i know it and i feel like an idiot for "playing" it.

Blizzard wonder's why they don't get respect. It's because they disrespect a huge part of the player base every time they log in wanting to play a video game and are instead given chores.

Ok so, you want to do something that the game doesn't offer but you still log on to that game, and then are upset about the game not offering the thing you would like it to offer. I'm...yeah

And fuck me but the Maw is about the worst piece of content ever to come out, unless you count Torghast which I thorougly enjoyed when it was fresh and challenging/rng etc.

But yeah I really never am going to undertstand this mindset. Especially ranting about it on MMO-Champ which is not a Blizzard site so the information won't reach them at all. You seem to have been playing for quite some time now. The Dailies thing is a thing since TBC (vanilla really with pvp and some odd ones but TBC was the first time dailies became more of a thing with Ogri'la, Netherwing etc). The Rares...well, I guess since forever, really. First encounter I personally had with the type you have now with rares was in Pandaria with the Timeless Isle.

And this chore thing. Nobody is forcing you. Again, I don't get why you'd rant about something that you do but don't feel like doing. You wanna beat difficult opponents, but do it...solo? I wager? Since there obv is quite difficult stuff to do raid wise, even dungeon wise with high enough keys.
...I would get it if you HAD to do these chores to get places. But...they're completely optional. You're not required to attune somewhere, or grind a certain reputation to get into an instance etc. You just...can opt not to do it and then it won't be a problem.

[Kehego]

3 is literally 3 too many

then don't do any, I got all my traits by mythic week without islands

and to be frank, I'm 99% sure that you didn't step in mythic week 1 and did anything noteworthy, anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing. I want them gone too. I was pointing out the WAY it makes it frustrating for a lot of us; we must do them in order to perform (as well as possible) and if we don't we would be considered jerks and kicked out of raid guilds anyway.

252 conduits are only a point of discussion for the criminally lazy.

and, there's nothing wrong with being lazy, but you can't be competitive and lazy at the same time. Not if you're a rational thinker, at least.

[Log Cabin]

then don't do any, I got all my traits by mythic week without islands

and to be frank, I'm 99% sure that you didn't step in mythic week 1 and did anything noteworthy, anyway.

- - - Updated - - -



252 conduits are only a point of discussion for the criminally lazy.

and, there's nothing wrong with being lazy, but you can't be competitive and lazy at the same time. Not if you're a rational thinker, at least.

Why though...?

It all loops back to that... why have this? Top end players don't like it and I doubt heroic and under raiders even change their conduits. This seems like a problem looking for a solution.

[Kehego]

Why though...?

It all loops back to that... why have this? Top end players don't like it and I doubt heroic and under raiders even change their conduits. This seems like a problem looking for a solution.

Lol people 100% change conduits, but go off. And yes, creating problems and intentionally hindering people is one of the core tenets of game dev, 90% of the time.

Imagine pokemon without needing the surf HM.

[pennywise377]

Lol people 100% change conduits, but go off. And yes, creating problems and intentionally hindering people is one of the core tenets of game dev, 90% of the time.

Imagine pokemon without needing the surf HM.

The thing is that in pokemon you get to enjoy the game when you work towards surf HM. It is part of the main plot. In wow you must do countless hours/days/weeks or awfully designed, repetitive and straight up not fun activities in order to get the reward in question. No matter how you spin it, this is not a good game design.

It hurts even more when you realise that they could make those grinds a bit more bearable, but they could not be bothered.