How do the Shen'dralar Highborne and the void elves (ren'dorei) view each other?

[Tanaria]

Do you think we should shift focus back to Shen'dralar and Ren'dorei?

I mean, these are the two Elven factions that could be the Alliance equivalent to Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei friendship.

Indeed, Void Elf Rangers and Night Elf Sentinels have worked together, but I do think more similarities lie with the Shen'dralar Mages and Ren'dorei Magisters and Warlocks.

We're all in agreement that the Alliance needs more sparks to be interesting and Shen'dralar/Ren'dorei working and living together in Eldre'Thalas is one thing of many that can help with that.

[sighy]

The writers don't care enough

Hell, we have void crazies and light fanatics on the same faction and nothing ever happened, not even a "hmph I dont approve of your powers"

It's just rule of cool. If Blizzard actually cared about good storytelling we wouldn't be where we are now.

[Vaedan]

Well, you said basically no help at all, I found something at least, and certainly their help was more than the Alliance help, recently. Ghostlands are mostly left empty because all the people live in Eversong of course. And the Scourge will come from the Plaguelands anyway so they can never be truly eradicated.

(It's not like the Alliance is helping the Void Elves either...the Humans certainly have the resources, but they don't improve/expand Telogrus' Rift one bit..and they send the Void Elves around the world to die as well, like in Nazmir...so they would do the same for the Blood Elves if they joined...)

Alliance have no obligation to help blood elves as long as they are part of the Horde, which is constantly aggressive towards them. On the other hand, Velen, one of the leaders of the Alliance, reignited Sunwell, which is definitely more then anything Horde could do for blood elves, recently. Vereesa and her rangers came to help during Amani Crisis, which is again, more help than Horde offered to blood elves at the time (which was, nothing. Maybe even worse, because Garrosh was pulling sin'dorei forces to his fights elsewhere, leaving them exposed to the Amani).

Alliance sheltered void elves after they were exiled. They could easily reject them and let them struggle elsewhere, but that did not happen. Nazmir mission was voluntary, troops sent there knew what is asked of them agreed on that. Also, Umbric and Alleria expressed several times during War Campaign that they pledge themselves to the Alliance cause. Void elves became part of 7th legion, alongside humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, worgen, etc... Whole BfA story was not about individual races, but about larger faction. That caused that development of each race to be dissolved. It affects not only void elves and the Alliance, but the Horde as well. Highmountain, Nightborne and Mag'har got close to no development either. Mag'har does not even have their own base, they just have one building in Orgrimmar reserved for them. Races were not focus of the BfA story, factions were.

Do you think we should shift focus back to Shen'dralar and Ren'dorei?

I mean, these are the two Elven factions that could be the Alliance equivalent to Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei friendship.

Indeed, Void Elf Rangers and Night Elf Sentinels have worked together, but I do think more similarities lie with the Shen'dralar Mages and Ren'dorei Magisters and Warlocks.

We're all in agreement that the Alliance needs more sparks to be interesting and Shen'dralar/Ren'dorei working and living together in Eldre'Thalas is one thing of many that can help with that.

I like the idea of Eldre'thalas being retaken and restored by Highborne and Ren'dorei. It has a lot of potential and as you say, Alliance elves need more development. Let's hope that next expansion will be world revamp, that will adress that.

[Varodoc]

It's difficult for a veteran Blood Elf fan like me to keep track of everything the Void Elves say (as they say a lot of things because of the Void...), but I know it exists, I just need a bit of time to find it as I played Void Elf only once. It's basically said the first time the new Void Elf character arrives in Stormwind, someone says the city cannot be compared to Silvermoon, but they will adapt anyway to their new life.

You can't provide the quote? Well that's a shame

Indirectly it's also confirmed by Umbric and Alleria anyway, as they want to bring back Silvermoon into the Alliance, meaning that they can't wait to take Quel'thalas in their control and leave Telogrus' Rift and Stormwind behind, as Silvermoon would become the new capital of the Ren'dorei of course.

The Ren'dorei want Silvermoon to be brought back into the Alliance, but certainly not because they think Silvermoon is a better tourist destination than Stormwind, that's a pretty silly way of looking at it. They don't want Silvermoon back because they think it's a pretty city, they want it back because they have always believed that the Alliance would be better for Quel'Thalas than the Horde. They are idealists, not silly people who want something back because it "looks prettier".

Also you realize that the Ren'dorei were looking for Telogrus Rift, right? To study the knowledge of the Void found within it? They're not staying there for fun or to take a vacation, they're staying there to study the vast knowledge of the Void contained within it. If Silvermoon rejoined the Alliance, the Ren'dorei would remain there or would continue to be involved greatly in Telogrus Rift, to study the secrets of the Void found there.

(It's not like the Alliance is helping the Void Elves either...the Humans certainly have the resources, but they don't improve/expand Telogrus' Rift one bit..and they send the Void Elves around the world to die as well, like in Nazmir...so they would do the same for the Blood Elves if they joined...)

In Telogrus Rift there's a deposit behind the portal to Stormwind full of resources, crates, boxes, etc. we can assume they came from Stormwind and were given to them by the Alliance. The Ren'dorei are there to study the Void, they don't need a house or whatever to do that.

The Ren'dorei under Magister Umbric volunteered to help the Alliance with the campaign in Zandalar, seeking to prove their worth to the Alliance. It was Alleria's idea to have her Ren'dorei play an active role in Zandalar, so that they can prove their worth to the Alliance.

[OwenBurton]

Wolfheart already estbalished that Malfurion and Tyrande both were willing to trust the Shen'dralar to handle all arcane matters, with 0 oversight. This surprised some fans, but actually is not surprising at all when you consider

1. It is Tyrande who sought to add the arcane power back and invited them
2. Malfurion who expresses desire to heal and unit the night elves - legion threat is gone afterall, ban stopped making sense in WC3 when the Legion returned
3. IT would be silly to be fully trust humans and Draenei, Dwarves and others with arcane and no oversight, yet not your own kin who are far more knowledgeable in the arts and have proven themselves capable of overcoming the strongest of seductions - which is quite a feat - considering they di this without an Arcan'dor or divine essence added to their own Well.


indeed, astromancy would be more prevalent amongst the Night elves, especially the Shen'dralar than the nightborne who've been trapped in a bubble without being able to actually see said stars for 10,000 years.

With all respect - Tyrande and Malfurion did not as of Wolfheart at least whole-heartedly trust the Shen'dralar from Eldre'Thalas - they were on good terms with Mordent Evenshade, but there were restrictions placed upon his Highborne kin's spellwork, to have them practice in an isolated part of the forest outside of Darnassus. Malfurion and Var'dyn Skyseeker were also on fairly tense terms. The events of Teldrassil likely changed this though, as the Highborne were the main reason that some night elves survived whatsoever, a night elf mage even portaled Tyrande to the Stockades in Shadow Rising.

If Tyrande's current powers are somehow related to the Void - that would perhaps open up new and interesting avenues, if Elune has some kind of command over this cosmic power, not unlike how high and blood elves are attuned to the Light.

[Synvanas]

You can't provide the quote? Well that's a shame

Actually I can, it's from the quest text of Keira herself, you just confused me a bit with the "wonders" stuff, Indeed before talking about the "wonders" of Stormwind, in the quest text she directly says that Stormwind have wonders DESPITE it's not Silvermoon. Meaning that, like the majority of the Void Elves included Alleria and Umbric, she still puts Silvermoon in the first place and Stormwind will never be their true home as I was saying (should not come as a surprise, really, as a Thalassian Elf fan).

But it's not like I really want to derail this thread further though...

[Varodoc]

Actually I can, it's from the quest text of Keira herself, you just confused me a bit with the "wonders" stuff, Indeed before talking about the "wonders" of Stormwind, in the quest text she directly says that Stormwind have wonders DESPITE it's not Silvermoon. Meaning that, like the majority of the Void Elves included Alleria and Umbric, she still puts Silvermoon in the first place and Stormwind will never be their true home as I was saying (should not come as a surprise, really, as a Thalassian Elf fan).

But it's not like I really want to derail this thread further though...

Indeed, we should shift back to the original point of the thread, for the "point" you were trying to make leaves me puzzled and confused. Yes, the Ren'dorei indeed consider Quel'Thalas their original home, because it factually is.

[Tanaria]

I like the idea of Eldre'thalas being retaken and restored by Highborne and Ren'dorei. It has a lot of potential and as you say, Alliance elves need more development. Let's hope that next expansion will be world revamp, that will adress that.

Alliance can even have the whole of Feralas as their own quest hub.
Horde can kick the Alliance out of the Barrens or Azshara, so one of those two become their own quest hub.

Let's add some Alliance Elite Shen'dralar Guardians, wielding sword and shield, to Eldre'Thalas who attack the Horde player onsite.
Along with Ren'dorei Riftblades and their two handed, void-touched Thalassian blades (perhaps a high-quality, recoloured version of the Sin'dorei Warblade.)

Lets see Ren'dorei Warlocks and Shen'dralar Dark-Casters weave some...interesting forms of magic together.
Let's see the more pure Ren'dorei Mages, Quel'dorei Mages and Shen'dralar Mages do things, all about the Arcane.

[Varodoc]

Everyone here is talking about that ogre-infested ruin that is Dire Maul but the Shen'dralar should be very interested in Telogrus Rift. Since it is Canonically stated that Telogrus Rift is filled with Void knowledge, which is why Magister Umbric was looking for it, and why he chose it as his base of operations:

Gossip What do you know of Telogrus?

This is a very old place. Broken by rage, yet sculpted by the threads of fate.

There is much to be learned here. I believe I might linger a while.

Be seeing you.

Although broken and scattered, this rift holds many secrets. It will teach us much about the nature of the shadows.

So really in truth it is the Shen'dralar who should be interested in learning more about the Telogrus Rift, since they have always been fascinated by the Void (the creature they chained, Immol'thar, was a beast of the Void, a so-called "Void Terror"). I think it would be fitting if Magister Umbric invited some of his Shen'dralar allies to Telogrus Rift, so that they can study and observe the Void together.

We already have Sin'dorei and Quel'dorei scholars and wayfarers who travelled there to study the Void, the Shen'dralar scholars should join them...

I think this is the kind of plotline that would be best written in a book. There will be a Void expansion eventually and there will be a novel about said expansion, and I think that one of the plot threads in that novel could indeed be about the alliance between Magister Umbric and the Shen'dralar scholars, and how they join forces to discover the secrets of the Void.

[Mace]

With all respect - Tyrande and Malfurion did not as of Wolfheart at least whole-heartedly trust the Shen'dralar from Eldre'Thalas - they were on good terms with Mordent Evenshade, but there were restrictions placed upon his Highborne kin's spellwork, to have them practice in an isolated part of the forest outside of Darnassus. Malfurion and Var'dyn Skyseeker were also on fairly tense terms. The events of Teldrassil likely changed this though, as the Highborne were the main reason that some night elves survived whatsoever, a night elf mage even portaled Tyrande to the Stockades in Shadow Rising.

If Tyrande's current powers are somehow related to the Void - that would perhaps open up new and interesting avenues, if Elune has some kind of command over this cosmic power, not unlike how high and blood elves are attuned to the Light.

Ah, do begging your pardon too good Owen, but I didn't say they whole heartedly trusted the Shen'dralar, they trusted them fully to handle arcane matters according to the book, or were willing to.. part of the Shen'dralar alliance agreements were they would handle all arcane matters, without oversight or (essentially inexperienced people getting in their way - is how I interpreted it).
Malfurion expressed anger, not mistrust at the Shen'dralar for their role in the War of the Ancients, their accusation was not letting the demons in, but rather sitting back and doing nothing while the demons ravaged the night elven cities only choosing to act against the Queen when their city came under assault.
[something we don't have any explanation as to why until the Farondis are revealed in 7.0, Azshara's surprisingly furious reaction to their insurrection/rebellion must have frightened other groups from acting). When Malfurion encounters them first in the book, he forbids them from using nature as practice for their spell work and forbids them not to harm the forest. This is not the restriction the accords talk about. The leader amongst the group that are practicing then and there whinge a bit that they need to hone their skills, Malfurion effectively firmly states "don't you dare damage nature" to do this, it is then they go over their conditions, one of which is that they would have complete autonomy over training and the recruits they scout. Furthermore those recruits would be considered Highborne and they would be in charge of them, they would also not be required or forced to adopt any Darnassian culture.

The book records Malfurion as agreeing to all their terms (which were not unreasonable at all) and stating that he and Tyrande were going to convince everyone to come round, but it may take some time. This is before it is discovered that it is Maiev, in her hatred that is stirring up opposition, hoping and trying to delay the talks until she could kill the Highborne, and eventually also tries to kill Malfurion.

Wolfheart resolves the quibbles and issues, by the start of cataclysm, priestesses ride in to Teldrassil urging the trainer to train as many mages as he can, Talendris point in Azshara is full of former druids, originally Highborne in the War of the Ancients, returned ot the arts.. all these would have sat on the voting council. The point is they all wanted this bar Maiev and their differences were resolved.

It doesn't mean all stigma was gone, no there was still evidence of stigma outside Maiev, also shown in the dialogue of a priest training with the Highborne, but it's been many years since, and events certainly in Legion and BFA would have long since ended.

However they have trusted the Highborne with handling arcane matters since Wolfheart. Druids in Feralas comment that the Highborne are uncorrupted - and think about it, it makes sense to trust them, they are highly intelligent and managed to free themselves of their arcane addiction and demonic corruption, the hard and disciplined way - if you actually think about the few things the Shen'dralar are recorded to do and spoken about, they are quite extraordinary a group of elves even amongst magical elves. You just don't actually see them do much in game - but their story implies they are rather incredible.

[Synvanas]

Indeed, we should shift back to the original point of the thread, for the "point" you were trying to make leaves me puzzled and confused. Yes, the Ren'dorei indeed consider Quel'Thalas their original home, because it factually is.

Heh...I just reread it and she does talk about "charms" in the same sentence she talks about Silvermoon and Stormwind...and "charm" does indeed mean beauty...she basically says, despite Stormwind has its beauty...it's not Silvermoon, that clearly has even more beauty..

and in fact, she's not wrong, I am not sure how could someone say a medieval castle/fortress is more beautiful than Silvermoon? At least she still has some true Thalassian sense of fashion in her...

So really in truth it is the Shen'dralar who should be interested in learning more about the Telogrus Rift, since they have always been fascinated by the Void (the creature they chained, Immol'thar, was a beast of the Void, a so-called "Void Terror"). I think it would be fitting if Magister Umbric invited some of his Shen'dralar allies to Telogrus Rift, so that they can study and observe the Void together.

Sorry to disappoint you, but despite the name "Void Terror", Immol'thar was a Demon...and when i say Demon, I mean a creature of the Twisting Nether and pure fel magic, not made into the plane of the Void Lords as a beast of the Void...a Demon like the ones of the Legion, who return to the Twisting Nether when they die, and you can extract only fel magic from it...

meaning that...the Shen'dralar did the same that the Sunfury did in Outland, extracting and absorbing fel magic from Demons...(no, I'm not judging them badly for that, if it was needed for the sustainment exactly like the Blood Elves...)

We already have Sin'dorei and Quel'dorei scholars and wayfarers who travelled there to study the Void, the Shen'dralar scholars should join them...

Exactly because there are Sin'dorei scholars in Telogrus' Rift, inviting the Shen'dralar there, it might be a bad idea for them, and could create unwanted tension in the Alliance...

...indeed, I recall the questline in Azshara where a couple of Blood Elves mocked and defeated a group of Shen'dralar quite easily using their own "primitive" arcane and elemental magic against them...maybe those were just Shen'dralar apprentices...but still, the elder ones probably didn't like it at all when they heard from it, and came to dislike the Blood Elves even more, of course...so, Shen'dralar meeting (former) Sin'dorei in Telogrus' Rift after what the Sin'dorei did against them in Azshara might not be a good idea...like, at all...

[Varodoc]

Sorry to disappoint you, but despite the name, Immol'thar was a Demon...and when i say Demon, I mean a creature of the Twisting Nether and pure fel magic, not made into the plane of the Void Lords as a beast of the Void...a Demon like the ones of the Legion, who return to the Twisting Nether when they die, and you can extract only fel magic from it...

You mean a demon like Shad'har the Insatiable, a boss in Ny'alotha, explicitly stated to be a creation of the Old God N'Zoth?

[Synvanas]

It seems like it's the same case of Voidwalkers for Void Terrors and Void Hounds then...some of them are purely Void creatures from the Void, but some are specifically from the Twisting Nether, that is a plane combined of both Void and Light energies that clashed long ago, the Twisting Nether can indeed produce Void creatures that are actually purely Demons though, which is the reason the Legion could recruit them despite hating the Void Lords and their Void plane...

Immol'thar specifically comes from the Twisting Nether though. Just like the Voidwalker pets of the Warlocks, and they are Legion agents, certainly not Void...

[OwenBurton]

Do you think we should shift focus back to Shen'dralar and Ren'dorei?

I mean, these are the two Elven factions that could be the Alliance equivalent to Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei friendship.

Indeed, Void Elf Rangers and Night Elf Sentinels have worked together, but I do think more similarities lie with the Shen'dralar Mages and Ren'dorei Magisters and Warlocks.

We're all in agreement that the Alliance needs more sparks to be interesting and Shen'dralar/Ren'dorei working and living together in Eldre'Thalas is one thing of many that can help with that.

The problem is that Blizzard refused to show us the state of both continents outside of random missions and two relatively limited warfronts, even the recent Exploring Kalimdor book was very narrow in its information. We have no idea the current state of Feralas itself, much less Eldre'Thalas, if Shandris and some of the Sentinels are living at Hyjal, does this mean Feralas is mostly Horde now? We have no idea if the Highborne suffered lots of casualties during the Burning of Teldrassil, or how many survived other than Mordent Evenshade. We have no idea even exactly how numerous the void elves are, especially after so many also died during the Fourth War.

For example, other than Tyrande's interaction with Thalyssra years ago, we also have no idea what most nightborne think of night elves, much less the other way around; their relationship seems so vague and unclear compared to the high elves and blood elves, for example, or the blood elves and the nightborne, as best exemplified by Lor'themar and Thalyssra. Has there even been a single other direct personal interaction between a night elf and nightborne, other than perhaps Farodin?

Nor do we have any idea, other than Shandris's words to Umbric, what the night elves and void elves really think of each other. Did Tyrande for example, angrily disapprove of Alleria welcoming them into the Alliance, or did she nod in approval after Teldrassil, thinking that her side needed to fight Sylvanas's darkness with their own darkness, as per the Night Warrior? There was so much development potential between all these races and their vastly disparate yet interlinked stories, yet Blizzard chose to largely ignore all of them, and as such, now we are left in this grey area of endless speculation and uncertainty.

[Alanar]

I don't think there is anything going on between the two. They happen to be in the alliance, both in weird ways.
Both don't seem to have a big voice atm, so we would need some updates on that.

We haven't seen them interact or care, so I doubt much has changed there.. also keeping the book in mind.

Just pure funfan speculation for the ones who care atm, but nothing concrete.