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  1. #21
    Maybe you should add more and better measures to prevent people from hurting the democratic state?

    But nah, I doubt USA will ever do that considering the things I've been called by Americans for talking about this in regards to what my country does in this regard.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    "lost badly"

    Is that code for, "Won the popular vote and lost the EC vote by 5 votes, which had the SCOTUS not ratfucked the Florida recount would have likely flipped it."?
    We've even got the "Lost Cause" truthers present in this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Here's the thing about Democracy: Democracy as a concept relies on an informed public making decisions based on facts. Once a huge portion of the population becomes subject to hyper partisan bullshit like "Joe Biden is a Marx Communist trying to steal your guns and tax away all your money" democracy begins to degrade.
    I suppose "The Republicans are the party of white supremacy that wants to take away your vote and install fascism" is how to get away from "hyper partisan bullshit."

    You're writing "relies on an informed public making decisions based on facts" but the actual thrust of your argument is "I'm allowed to decide when the public is misinformed and not voting right in a Democracy." Every authoritarian nincompoop throughout history claims that the populace would really overwhelming support him/her, except for certain misinformed elements that use Democracy wrong.

    You're just insufficiently supportive of Democracy. Plain and simple. I'm not putting you or any group in charge with determining when people are voting for the wrong reasons or believing the wrong disinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    bOtH SiIiideZzs!
    dON't lOOk aT cONteXT!

    Seriously, this is all an exercise in undermining Democracy, but blaming the other side exclusively.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    but blaming the other side exclusively.
    one side did jan 6th

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    We've even got the "Lost Cause" truthers present in this forum.

    I suppose "The Republicans are the party of white supremacy that wants to take away your vote and install fascism" is how to get away from "hyper partisan bullshit."

    You're writing "relies on an informed public making decisions based on facts" but the actual thrust of your argument is "I'm allowed to decide when the public is misinformed and not voting right in a Democracy." Every authoritarian nincompoop throughout history claims that the populace would really overwhelming support him/her, except for certain misinformed elements that use Democracy wrong.

    You're just insufficiently supportive of Democracy. Plain and simple. I'm not putting you or any group in charge with determining when people are voting for the wrong reasons or believing the wrong disinformation.


    dON't lOOk aT cONteXT!

    Seriously, this is all an exercise in undermining Democracy, but blaming the other side exclusively.
    Which side orchestrated a coup that just happened to fail? That they are now trying to cover up?
    - Lars

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    dON't lOOk aT cONteXT!
    Seriously, this is all an exercise in undermining Democracy, but blaming the other side exclusively.
    Show , just for one milisecond, an ounce of intelectual honesty and tell us how the one ( you) who lies pleasantly in the bed of "60% of republicans think the election was stolen" can have the nerve to point fingers. Please , use your pedantry , to find a Democrat comparison to "Legal Road Map to an alternate set of electors" or "6th January tourist joyride" or "Election fraud is the single most important issue" after 1 year of presidency.

    No,seriously, it's like a serial killer outraged at a parking infraction: the dimension are not even measured in the same magnitude.

    So TeLL' UZ YouR cONtext!!!

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    Show , just for one milisecond, an ounce of intelectual honesty and tell us how the one ( you) who lies pleasantly in the bed of "60% of republicans think the election was stolen" can have the nerve to point fingers. Please , use your pedantry , to find a Democrat comparison to "Legal Road Map to an alternate set of electors"
    Democratic presidential electors revolt against Trump
    At least a half-dozen Democratic electors have signed onto an attempt to block Donald Trump from winning an Electoral College majority, an effort designed not only to deny Trump the presidency but also to undermine the legitimacy of the institution.

    The presidential electors, mostly former Bernie Sanders supporters who hail from Washington state and Colorado, are now lobbying their Republican counterparts in other states to reject their oaths — and in some cases, state law — to vote against Trump when the Electoral College meets on Dec. 19.


    or "6th January tourist joyride"
    Violence flares in Washington during Trump inauguration
    Black-clad activists among hundreds of demonstrators protesting Donald Trump’s swearing-in on Friday clashed with police a few blocks from the White House, in an outburst of violence rare for an inauguration.

    At least 217 people were arrested in the melees, police said.


    Police was better prepared that day and not turned down despite giving offers to add forces as it happened on Jan 6; making "use of police" toxic is clear Democrat's achievement.

    or "Election fraud is the single most important issue" after 1 year of presidency.
    "Russians stole elections through disinformation and installed Trump as their stooge" continued for a lot longer.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    Show , just for one milisecond, an ounce of intelectual honesty and tell us how the one ( you) who lies pleasantly in the bed of "60% of republicans think the election was stolen" can have the nerve to point fingers. Please , use your pedantry , to find a Democrat comparison to "Legal Road Map to an alternate set of electors" or "6th January tourist joyride" or "Election fraud is the single most important issue" after 1 year of presidency.

    No,seriously, it's like a serial killer outraged at a parking infraction: the dimension are not even measured in the same magnitude.

    So TeLL' UZ YouR cONtext!!!
    I'm not asking anyone to make the incidents I talk about to be the same magnitude as the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th. For the people that read, instead of just sensed Republicanism in the post, I explicitly stated the difference in magnitude.

    So, everybody can have their pedantry and "muh feelingz" as much as they want, but I am giving explicit opportunity to identify a single act of anti-Democratic sentiment that doesn't coincide with hardcore leftist partisanship. I gave a couple examples of where you could go to in past posts if you're having trouble remembering. I can't cite a single person in this forum as an example of rising above partisanship to seek to preserve Democracy, so I think the evidence dictates that the greatest desire is to preserve their partisan credentials instead of preserving Democracy and democratic traditions.

    I don't really expect to get flowers and compliments for exposing some pretty dark shit hiding beneath the surface. Cthulhu even has logic that would permit people to disenfranchise others that are doing Democracy wrong, in his opinion, and I don't expect even a hint of condemnation for that logic from others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Democratic presidential electors revolt against Trump
    At least a half-dozen Democratic electors have signed onto an attempt to block Donald Trump from winning an Electoral College majority, an effort designed not only to deny Trump the presidency but also to undermine the legitimacy of the institution.

    The presidential electors, mostly former Bernie Sanders supporters who hail from Washington state and Colorado, are now lobbying their Republican counterparts in other states to reject their oaths — and in some cases, state law — to vote against Trump when the Electoral College meets on Dec. 19.



    Violence flares in Washington during Trump inauguration
    Black-clad activists among hundreds of demonstrators protesting Donald Trump’s swearing-in on Friday clashed with police a few blocks from the White House, in an outburst of violence rare for an inauguration.

    At least 217 people were arrested in the melees, police said.


    Police was better prepared that day and not turned down despite giving offers to add forces as it happened on Jan 6; making "use of police" toxic is clear Democrat's achievement.

    "Russians stole elections through disinformation and installed Trump as their stooge" continued for a lot longer.
    Some more examples for the first brave person to cite to break even-so-slightly with their partisan side. Explicitly condemn the organized effort to sway electors after the election happened as being indicative of a backsliding democracy. Explicitly condemn violence directed against police and buildings in the wake of a free and fair election as being indicative of a backsliding democracy and the peaceful transfer of power. (I'm not really adding the Trump-Russian collusion one to this list, though I think it's part and parcel with people that transparently rejected the results of the 2016 election, because it's probably going to take ten more years and dozens of historians to unburden leftists of this core belief. In the preservation of democracy or our democratic republic, I'm going after some small victories)
    Last edited by tehdang; 2021-11-23 at 05:19 PM.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  8. #28
    Democrats have faults, but they aren't remotely comparable to what republicans have been doing over the past decade. It makes perfect sense to mostly blame republicans for what's happening to the country.

    It's not a situation where a difference of opinion on policy is gradually making things worse. Republicans are purposely killing our democracy. Our elections are rigged so much in their favor that they will easily be able to continue doing so.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    Democrats have faults, but they aren't remotely comparable to what republicans have been doing over the past decade. It makes perfect sense to mostly blame republicans for what's happening to the country.

    It's not a situation where a difference of opinion on policy is gradually making things worse. Republicans are purposely killing our democracy. Our elections are rigged so much in their favor that they will easily be able to continue doing so.
    I'm not even here to accuse Democrats of not owning up to having most of the blame. I have to wonder if "Democrats have faults" is actually true for you, since nobody can actually identify any instance that constitutes a fault in the scope of undermining democracy or contributing to the backslide in democracy. It's like the first person to depart from progressive orthodoxy fears that he'll be viciously attacked for the post. There's been enough Democrats refusing to accept the results of an election, or objecting to the electoral vote tally as recently as 1/6/17, to pick an example. Some of them are still in office, occupy official positions in the Democratic party or the Biden administration, or are recent candidates for office.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Democratic presidential electors revolt against Trump
    At least a half-dozen Democratic electors have signed onto an attempt to block Donald Trump from winning an Electoral College majority, an effort designed not only to deny Trump the presidency but also to undermine the legitimacy of the institution.

    The presidential electors, mostly former Bernie Sanders supporters who hail from Washington state and Colorado, are now lobbying their Republican counterparts in other states to reject their oaths — and in some cases, state law — to vote against Trump when the Electoral College meets on Dec. 19.



    Violence flares in Washington during Trump inauguration
    Black-clad activists among hundreds of demonstrators protesting Donald Trump’s swearing-in on Friday clashed with police a few blocks from the White House, in an outburst of violence rare for an inauguration.

    At least 217 people were arrested in the melees, police said.


    Police was better prepared that day and not turned down despite giving offers to add forces as it happened on Jan 6; making "use of police" toxic is clear Democrat's achievement.

    "Russians stole elections through disinformation and installed Trump as their stooge" continued for a lot longer.
    I know Russians doesn't understand Democracy ( and I suspect don't want either) but try not to be this ridiculous if you wanna continue to be paid because if you really think those are comparable....Jesus ...Fucking...Christ.

    Send me a message when Donald Trump concede.

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm not asking anyone to make the incidents I talk about to be the same magnitude as the insurrection at the Capitol on January 6th. For the people that read, instead of just sensed Republicanism in the post, I explicitly stated the difference in magnitude.

    So, everybody can have their pedantry and "muh feelingz" as much as they want, but I am giving explicit opportunity to identify a single act of anti-Democratic sentiment that doesn't coincide with hardcore leftist partisanship. I gave a couple examples of where you could go to in past posts if you're having trouble remembering. I can't cite a single person in this forum as an example of rising above partisanship to seek to preserve Democracy, so I think the evidence dictates that the greatest desire is to preserve their partisan credentials instead of preserving Democracy and democratic traditions.

    I don't really expect to get flowers and compliments for exposing some pretty dark shit hiding beneath the surface. Cthulhu even has logic that would permit people to disenfranchise others that are doing Democracy wrong, in his opinion, and I don't expect even a hint of condemnation for that logic from others.
    Oh yeah, make sense because Cthulhu is an elected member of the congress.

    Yeahhhhh really honest to make that comparison. Should we compare with Marjorie Taylor Bitch? Because that's an actual member and the problem conservatives choose ( remark: choose) to ignore is that the real "single most important issue" is about the antidemocratic behavior that elected members display.

    This is not about "60% republicans" that like to live in an alternate reality no, this about this attitude is getting institutionalized in the party ( starting from the head: Trump) and is becoming a virus that threatens to eat the whole party.

    Some more examples for the first brave person to cite to break even-so-slightly with their partisan side. Explicitly condemn the organized effort to sway electors after the election happened as being indicative of a backsliding democracy. Explicitly condemn violence directed against police and buildings in the wake of a free and fair election as being indicative of a backsliding democracy and the peaceful transfer of power. (I'm not really adding the Trump-Russian collusion one to this list, though I think it's part and parcel with people that transparently rejected the results of the 2016 election, because it's probably going to take ten more years and dozens of historians to unburden leftists of this core belief. In the preservation of democracy or our democratic republic, I'm going after some small victories)
    Not even you believe those are comparable (not in the business of minding well know paid trolls) so if you wanna make his arguments yours lets see them:

    1. Is the opinion of Bernie Sanders a detailed map created by the acting president ( Obama back then) that persist even one year after?
    2. Is civil unrest comparable to an assault of the Capitol the very day the president is elected promoted by the acting president?
    3. This one is funny but since you already discardet it..well...that.

    The delirious of the republican base is miles ahead of the reprobable behavior of the democrat base ( miles) and as opposed to the democrats that delusions are being slowly filtered into the actual representatives that show no shame in defending the authoritarian positions of the base. I can accept intelectual and moral misery from the mass....we can not , in no way , accept them from members of the congress.

    In the end you are comparing random guys in the internet with the legislative branch and you are comparing a protest with trying to block a pressidental election instigated by the acting president so you are basically claiming the democrats are no saints. Great...we already know that...not even saints are saints but the main difference is one of the two is working the first step to totalitarianism and I'm not saying there's gonna be a step two and and step three ( can't predict the future) but I DO say what they do is the first step.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm not even here to accuse Democrats of not owning up to having most of the blame. I have to wonder if "Democrats have faults" is actually true for you, since nobody can actually identify any instance that constitutes a fault in the scope of undermining democracy or contributing to the backslide in democracy. It's like the first person to depart from progressive orthodoxy fears that he'll be viciously attacked for the post. There's been enough Democrats refusing to accept the results of an election, or objecting to the electoral vote tally as recently as 1/6/17, to pick an example. Some of them are still in office, occupy official positions in the Democratic party or the Biden administration, or are recent candidates for office.
    Do you not understand the job of an Elector? It’s their job to vote for who they feel is best. Some don’t like that idea so many states require that electors side with the majority vote.

    The key difference here is that some GOP state politicians want to be able to overturn the majority vote and then have the state legislature decide where the electoral votes go.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm not even here to accuse Democrats of not owning up to having most of the blame. I have to wonder if "Democrats have faults" is actually true for you, since nobody can actually identify any instance that constitutes a fault in the scope of undermining democracy or contributing to the backslide in democracy. It's like the first person to depart from progressive orthodoxy fears that he'll be viciously attacked for the post. There's been enough Democrats refusing to accept the results of an election, or objecting to the electoral vote tally as recently as 1/6/17, to pick an example. Some of them are still in office, occupy official positions in the Democratic party or the Biden administration, or are recent candidates for office.
    You shouldn't take seriously the thread that states that democracy has improved in the Ukraine last year to begin with. It is a clear humoresque
    Lives matter

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm not even here to accuse Democrats of not owning up to having most of the blame. I have to wonder if "Democrats have faults" is actually true for you, since nobody can actually identify any instance that constitutes a fault in the scope of undermining democracy or contributing to the backslide in democracy. It's like the first person to depart from progressive orthodoxy fears that he'll be viciously attacked for the post. There's been enough Democrats refusing to accept the results of an election, or objecting to the electoral vote tally as recently as 1/6/17, to pick an example. Some of them are still in office, occupy official positions in the Democratic party or the Biden administration, or are recent candidates for office.
    Democracies do not backslide via one instance they do so slowly all you have to do is look at approaches in countries such as China you slowly add legislation that limit rights. The GOP has made it their mission in life to make voting as difficult as possible, democrats may object electoral vote tallies but they haven't passed laws allowing them to do so republicans have. The republican party has given themselves the power to throw out votes with no reason given all based on a lie that the election was stolen from their fuhrer.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimiOne View Post
    I know Russians doesn't understand Democracy ( and I suspect don't want either) but try not to be this ridiculous if you wanna continue to be paid because if you really think those are comparable....Jesus ...Fucking...Christ.

    Send me a message when Donald Trump concede.



    Oh yeah, make sense because Cthulhu is an elected member of the congress.

    Yeahhhhh really honest to make that comparison. Should we compare with Marjorie Taylor Bitch? Because that's an actual member and the problem conservatives choose ( remark: choose) to ignore is that the real "single most important issue" is about the antidemocratic behavior that elected members display.

    This is not about "60% republicans" that like to live in an alternate reality no, this about this attitude is getting institutionalized in the party ( starting from the head: Trump) and is becoming a virus that threatens to eat the whole party.



    Not even you believe those are comparable (not in the business of minding well know paid trolls) so if you wanna make his arguments yours lets see them:

    1. Is the opinion of Bernie Sanders a detailed map created by the acting president ( Obama back then) that persist even one year after?
    2. Is civil unrest comparable to an assault of the Capitol the very day the president is elected promoted by the acting president?
    3. This one is funny but since you already discardet it..well...that.

    The delirious of the republican base is miles ahead of the reprobable behavior of the democrat base ( miles) and as opposed to the democrats that delusions are being slowly filtered into the actual representatives that show no shame in defending the authoritarian positions of the base. I can accept intelectual and moral misery from the mass....we can not , in no way , accept them from members of the congress.

    In the end you are comparing random guys in the internet with the legislative branch and you are comparing a protest with trying to block a pressidental election instigated by the acting president so you are basically claiming the democrats are no saints. Great...we already know that...not even saints are saints but the main difference is one of the two is working the first step to totalitarianism and I'm not saying there's gonna be a step two and and step three ( can't predict the future) but I DO say what they do is the first step.
    when you get done calling everybody paid trolls and saying for who knows what time that none of this is even comparable, I’m still interested in your answer. At your convenience and feel free to reread some examples I gave and quoted from others in case you need a refresher. If you’re just here to pound “Marjorie Taylor Bitch,” then maybe dunking is the only activity you’re in the thread to do.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    one side did jan 6th
    Stop pointing out easily ignorable facts, they're terribly inconvenient.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    You shouldn't take seriously the thread that states that democracy has improved in the Ukraine last year to begin with. It is a clear humoresque
    Yes, you’re right. Putting Ukraine off the list and putting the US on is a very unserious classification regime. But it’s a thread on whatever truth there is on factions undermining democracy and faith in elections and the vote. So I’m mostly ignoring the shock headline and internationalist think-tank fundraising ploy. And I gotta say the monomaniacal focus on one party’s crimes is more than I could hope to prove my point in this subject.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Do you not understand the job of an Elector? It’s their job to vote for who they feel is best. Some don’t like that idea so many states require that electors side with the majority vote.

    The key difference here is that some GOP state politicians want to be able to overturn the majority vote and then have the state legislature decide where the electoral votes go.
    Did you not know that the Supreme Court has unanimously upheld laws that punish and/or remove electors that don’t cast their vote according to state law? They went to court saying they had discretion and shouldn’t face penalties, and even the Uber progressive justices said “Nah, you’re duty bound and should face punishment for violating your oath.”

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Democracies do not backslide via one instance they do so slowly all you have to do is look at approaches in countries such as China you slowly add legislation that limit rights. The GOP has made it their mission in life to make voting as difficult as possible, democrats may object electoral vote tallies but they haven't passed laws allowing them to do so republicans have. The republican party has given themselves the power to throw out votes with no reason given all based on a lie that the election was stolen from their fuhrer.
    You’re really intent on making my point for me. I asked for any instance otherwise, that don’t magically align with your own political biases, and without stating that it has to be of equal magnitude to 1/6, and I get 0 admissions and 4+ restatements of the crimes of the GOP and ultimate fault of the decline. This resembles a choir with an instructor telling everyone to not deviate from the hymnal.
    "I wish it need not have happened in my time." "So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

  17. #37
    "European think tank". Ok cool. So who pays them to update this list? Why was Ukraine removed? I won't disagree that the US' democrat institutions are eroding, but this isn't a recent thing. If US wasn't on the list last year or the year before or the year before that I don't see why it shouldn't be in this year. If they are using Trump as a reason, then why? He lost, and Biden is president. What has fundamentally changed besides Orange Man who has already lost and is no longer in power? The democratic institutions led the process to instate Biden as president. In fact, it shows our democracy is strong.
    Last edited by GreenJesus; 2021-11-23 at 07:32 PM.

  18. #38
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Yes, you’re right. Putting Ukraine off the list and putting the US on is a very unserious classification regime.
    What I'm getting here is that you don't like what this says about the USA's state of democracy, but you don't have an objective argument that they're wrong, so you're just gonna use your own emotional reaction to the information as if that were a replacement for an actual argument.

    What did they get wrong? Be specific. And detailed.


  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    In 2000, when Bush won and the Dems lost badly, they kinda panicked.
    In 2016, when Trump won and the Dems lost badly, they kinda panicked.
    "panicked" as in winning the popular vote and the SCOTUS electing bush by preventing a recount in FL
    "panicked" by investigating illegal funding, collusion, propaganda campaign by a hostile foreign government.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Did you not know that the Supreme Court has unanimously upheld laws that punish and/or remove electors that don’t cast their vote according to state law? They went to court saying they had discretion and shouldn’t face penalties, and even the Uber progressive justices said “Nah, you’re duty bound and should face punishment for violating your oath.”
    Doesn’t change the opinions of certain GOP officials who are at least willing to float the idea of minority rule.

    Largely Dem politicians aren’t willing to subvert democracy. GOP ones one the other hand are working to do just that.

    And I would also like point out, again, as a California resident you’re relatively insulated from GOP election fuckery.

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