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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And when it’s not rightfully yours? Because I guarantee that the person who has 1000% more wealth did not work 1000% harder and might not have worked at all.
    "Being rewarded proportionally to work you have done" is labor theory of value - which even Democrats don't seem to support.
    Basis of Capitalism is in exploiting labor and concentrating wealth disproportionally to personal effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Asians don't perform universally well. Once you move to groups like Southeast Asians, the figures you mention don't hold up. It's pretty much just down to the post-WWII immigration of middle-class-to-wealthy population groups, particularly from more-affluent nations like Japan, South Korea, and China (the upper crust, at least).
    Black don't perform universally bad either though if you go into subgroups. Nigerian immigrants seem to be doing better then even average whites despite all racism.

  2. #62
    Pandaren Monk Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And when it’s not rightfully yours?
    When it's not rightfully yours you will be prosecuted for it in most cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I guarantee that the person who has 1000% more wealth did not work 1000% harder and might not have worked at all.
    And he don't have to. He might just have a better job due to a much higher qualification. Or have a courage and wit to invest right. Or might just get lucky in a lottery. Generational wealth also counts. The fact that someone has 1000% more wealth than I do doesn't mean he robbed 20 people like me half of their income. It might mean he provides 200 people like me with a job and we collectively have a roughly 95% share of net income from sold products
    Lives matter

  3. #63
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Black don't perform universally bad either though if you go into subgroups. Nigerian immigrants seem to be doing better then even average whites despite all racism.
    And?

    It'd be just as dishonest and fundamentally racist to claim "blacks are doing fine in the USA" and point at Nigerians specifically.

    That's literally the kind of bullshit I was calling out as bullshit.


  4. #64
    Pandaren Monk Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It'd be just as dishonest and fundamentally racist to claim "blacks are doing fine in the USA" and point at Nigerians specifically.
    It is dishonest and fundamentally racist to construct your entire reasoning of why people are or are not "doing fine" on the basis of their race
    Lives matter

  5. #65
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    It is dishonest and fundamentally racist to construct your entire reasoning of why people are or are not "doing fine" on the basis of their race
    If that's what you think I've been doing, then you've paid literally no attention to anything I've said, and have chosen to attack an entirely imaginary straw man you made up inside your own head.


  6. #66
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    It is also fine to share at will. Demanding to be let to feed on the fruit of other's labour, on the other hand, is a sloth, since we are talking in deadly sins suddenly.
    Employers feed on the fruit of labor of their employees, and pay a pittance of what said employees make. So we're calling employers sloth now? Sounds about right.

    As far as the "Affirmative action" arguments going on in the background. Just stop. You guys don't even understand what affirmative action is, what it entails, or what it accomplishes. In short, it guarantees equal reward for equal work. If you think it's anything but that, you need to get your ear out of Fox News or Fox News fueled social circles that vomit up the same rhetoric.

    "But I don't watch Fox News" So many conservative fantasy and false talking points from the last 20 years originate with Fox News and then make their way around conservative circles until they're believed as fact even among casual conservatives. And the people who repeat them always say they don't watch Fox, but it doesn't matter. They've still fallen for the Fox Propaganda machine.

    Don't worry, I'm not forgetting grifters and charlatans like Tim Pool and Andy Ngo, as well as OAN. They've recognized the profit potential of misinformation and have jumped on the train. Whether they actually believe the shit they spout may be up for debate, but that they spout it is all that matters.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "Being rewarded proportionally to work you have done" is labor theory of value - which even Democrats don't seem to support.
    Basis of Capitalism is in exploiting labor and concentrating wealth disproportionally to personal effort.
    Democrats are typically less evil about it than Republicans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    When it's not rightfully yours you will be prosecuted for it in most cases.



    And he don't have to. He might just have a better job due to a much higher qualification. Or have a courage and wit to invest right. Or might just get lucky in a lottery. Generational wealth also counts. The fact that someone has 1000% more wealth than I do doesn't mean he robbed 20 people like me half of their income. It might mean he provides 200 people like me with a job and we collectively have a roughly 95% share of net income from sold products
    Funny thing about wealth. It’s really good for evading the consequences of your actions. Or changing the laws so you benefit more from the system. Which is really what this thread is about.

    Or he stepped on a shit tonne of necks to get where he was. And in case you’re wondering the most widespread form of theft in America is wage theft. Nothing else even comes close.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Democrats are typically less evil about it than Republicans.
    They are also a lot more dismissive of actual working class needs though. "We know what is good for you even as we destroy what you do for living".

    "Learn to code" was a Democrat thing too.

    Republicans love to exploit them for votes while only paying lip service; Democrats seem to love moving them out of the way of their "grand visions" and see steep decline of their votes.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-11-23 at 10:49 PM.

  9. #69
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    It is dishonest and fundamentally racist to construct your entire reasoning of why people are or are not "doing fine" on the basis of their race
    Crack an American history book sometime and tell me race has no bearing on social or economic status in the US. I'll get a good chuckle out of that one.

    Anyone who believes racism disappeared in the 60's is either willfully ignorant or just straight up believes racist BS like "This race just works harder".




    You guys also might want to avoid dumping on certain specific races or ethnic subgroups, that's quick infraction territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They are also a lot more dismissive of actual working class needs though. "We know what is good for you even as we destroy what you do for living".

    "Learn to code" was a Democrat thing too.
    Coal's not coming back.

    I'm sorry to the coal workers who have a mid life crisis over this.

    Democrats were at the very least trying to offer an alternative source for them to be productive and have an income. Republicans just fed them comforting lies. And ultimately, pretending that coal was coming back hurt those people in the long run.

    So yeah, zero fucks given that you think trying to reeducate that work force is bad.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    They are also a lot more dismissive of actual working class needs though. "We know what is good for you even as we destroy what you do for living".

    "Learn to code" was a Democrat thing too.
    Not true in the slightest. For example, coal is a dying industry for a lot of reasons. Do you lie to the coal miners and tell them they can continue to work in a dead industry or do you try to find them something else?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Because the alternative is...promising to keep their legacy industry that's not financially viable any longer afloat via government subsidies?

    How dare Democrats propose solutions to problems. How. Dare. They.

  12. #72
    As I expected this thread turned into yet another dems vs reps bullshit. It is all on you, dear Americans. No, no finger pointing to the opposite side, I don't care. The system was made by you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    You shouldn't take seriously the thread that states that democracy has improved in the Ukraine last year to begin with. It is a clear humoresque
    Well, I guess you can prove it hasn't?
    But... It would be quite easy to improve when compared to Russia which who again had text-book falsified elections this year. Probably not a big achievement, yet some growth nonetheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And?
    What was your point in "some Asians subgroups aren't doing great" again?

    It'd be just as dishonest and fundamentally racist to claim "blacks are doing fine in the USA" and point at Nigerians specifically.
    You're saying "it is dishonest to point out that Asians are doing well because some Asian subgroups are doing worse", and yet you simultaneously seem to say "It is dishonest to point out that some Black groups are doing great while overall Blacks struggle". This seems inconsistent.

    Are we looking at "big picture" to prove systemic influences or are we going into subgroup analysis to disprove them? Which one is your choice exactly?

    Surely some white subgroups aren't doing that well either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Because the alternative is...promising to keep their legacy industry that's not financially viable any longer afloat via government subsidies?
    You could subsidize those people directly instead of their industries to ease transition.

    You're the ones choosing "who lives and who dies". "We don't care about them" is exactly my point.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-11-23 at 10:57 PM.

  14. #74
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    As I expected this thread turned into yet another dems vs reps bullshit. It is all on you, dear Americans. No, no finger pointing to the opposite side, I don't care. The system was made by you.
    The people mostly pushing it in that direction in this thread aren't even Americans. We've got canadian liberals and russian conservatives, even a northern european and an eastern european doing a good bit of the arguing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You could subsidize those people directly instead of their industries to ease transition.

    You're the ones choosing "who lives and who dies". "We don't care about them" is exactly my point.
    God, are you completely deaf, or do you just forget everything?

    Democrats are the ones who have also been pushing for more unemployment benefits as well as social safety nets.

    GUESS WHO KEEPS SHOOTING THEM DOWN?

    Republicans are the ones hamstringing their own work force, and the Republican voters eat it up and ask for more because "MUH COMMUNISM".
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Democrats are the ones who have also been pushing for more unemployment benefits as well as social safety nets.
    As i understand it "unemployment benefits" are quite limited in duration in most states.
    Even when they would be high if there are no jobs in the area eventually they'll run out.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    As i understand it "unemployment benefits" are quite limited in duration in most states.
    Even when they would be high if there are no jobs in the area eventually they'll run out.
    Guess who makes those benefits so small and limited in time?

    Even in blue states, the Republicans in the state house often hamstring all efforts to make generous social welfare systems.

    "We can't give them much money or give them much time because then they'll abuse it!"

    Literally a Republican talking point.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Guess who makes those benefits so small and limited in time?
    Creating permanent underclass living on government handouts does seem to be how Democrats see solution to all problems, be that work-related or racial.
    Possibly imagining later holding those handouts over their heads with "Vote for us or Evil Republicans will take them away".

    That isn't how workers get good outcomes though.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "Learn to code" was, admittedly, not a very nice thing to say to people losing their jobs. But it's not really substanstively different than the Republican "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" talking point...so the performative pearl-clutching about that remark really fell flat.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You could subsidize those people directly instead of their industries to ease transition.
    That's what "Learn to code" is. It's subsidized training for new jobs since the old local industry is dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You're the ones choosing "who lives and who dies". "We don't care about them" is exactly my point.
    No, the market does that. Just like it did to wheelmakers and milk delivery people.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    "Learn to code" was, admittedly, not a very nice thing to say to people losing their jobs. But it's not really substanstively different than the Republican "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" talking point...so the performative pearl-clutching about that remark really fell flat.
    Never said that Republicans actually care much more then Democrats.

    But they do have rhetoric that seems to better match worker sensibilities.
    ...in large part because Democrats moved to targeting primarily urban and suburban voters.

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