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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by MKGulantik View Post
    First Mike Ybarra gloats about raid boosting in retail, and now lead WoW Classic dev Brian Birmingham admits to doing GDKP runs with his guild and enjoying it.

    We are all aware that Blizzard profits from boosting via wow tokens, but it genuinely never occurred to me that key figures in Blizzard were actually just...also boosters. I wonder if any of them engage in RMT on the sly?

    (I can't post the source because I haven't posted much - but its in an interview posted on Wowhead.)
    Selling boosts isn't the problem. It's the people that buy them.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Why would anyone care about boosting
    Because some people place value in their video game items based on how many other people have the item lol
    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  3. #243
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It isn't. Again, good chat.
    Blizzard could have taken a stance on boosting, or even regulated it heavily. They haven't. They've been silent on it.

    Blizzard makes the rules for their game. That boosting has exploded since the WoW token, and Blizzard has taken no stance against it is a tacit endorsement.

    And yes, it is a tacit endorsement. Please look up the meaning of that phrase. They could have taken a direct stance of "No advertising boosting services in game" like certain other MMOs did, but they haven't.

    That boosting communities are thriving, growing large, and even making their own structures, apps and systems bespeaks of their success.

    Boosting is pushing token sales. Token sales create a legitimate avenue for buying boosting for those who do not want to risk their account with Chinese RMT.



    Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.
    What is there to take a stance against? Providing in game services for in game gold? On this line of thinking you wouldn't be able to make gear and sell it on the ah cause thats boosting people's ilvl. Giving another play gold to be like 'hey help me with this' is a core idea of how trading works.

    What would the rule be? You can pay gold for any source of in game power except if it comes from in an instance???

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think the issue here is that, and that's just speculation on my part, that could come across as endorsement of boosting by Blizzard.
    They've been consistent and clear for all 17 years that player transactions using gold are fine. A services channel may or may not be an answer since most of the available chat channels are ignored but I doubt that Blizzard has any problems whatsoever with how players spend their gold provided they obtain it in-game or through legal channels (token).
    "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" — Soren Johnson (Civilization III/IV designer)

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.
    There are a number of issues with each of the proposed solutions I have seen for the "problem" of boosting.

    • If Blizzard outlaws boosting, it just gets pushed into different channels. People would still boost, they just wouldn't call it boosting. (Suddenly 10/10M guilds are charging gold for trials and they accept anybody!)
    • If Blizzard outlaws the advertisement of boosting a la FFXIV I doubt it changes much. The people running the boosting communities have access to a near infinite number of accounts and the benefit from advertising their service is likely worth more to them than the cost of creating new accounts to advertise with.
    • If Blizzard creates a new "services" channel I can see players feeling better about not having to see the advertisements but this doesn't actually address the issue of boosting, it just makes it less visible. It's like the shit NYC is doing with park benches, designing them in a way that homeless people won't sleep on them. It makes the homeless people less visible, but it doesn't actually, y'know, solve the problem with homeless people existing in the first place.
    • If Blizzard makes it easier to get max item level gear, it grossly impacts one of the core gameplay mechanics upon which WoW has operated for decades. The argument I see is that Blizzard should eliminate gear from the equation and make everything prestige based. This seems like a great idea on paper but I was around for CModes and remember distinctly how little interest there was in them. WoW isn't just about shiny things; it's about shiny things and big numbers. You can't have one without the other.

    Personally, I don't think any of the proposed solutions are really all that great. I also think that the actual problem itself isn't as big of an issue as it's often made out to be. Blizzard does profit from boosting but if we go by what the Gallywix admin said on Twitter, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Blizzard is bringing in from other services. If the solution has more negative side effects than doing nothing at all, why bother?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I doubt that Blizzard has any problems whatsoever with how players spend their gold provided they obtain it in-game or through legal channels (token).
    I mean, that's the point, boosting is also fueled a decent degree by RMT.

    If Blizzard had no issues with boosting being pushed into its own channel, i think we would have that solution already.

  8. #248
    Just gonna slide on into here to quickly mention that Boosting has almost no effect on any MMORPGs considering nearly 100% of them have had active boosting since the very beginning (yes, WoW included, and yes, many of us remember accurately back then because we were also selling boosts in '04-05).

    Or, to phrase it better, the effects of boosting are actually unknown because we've yet to experience a massive-scale MMORPG without boosting.

    And I'm going to slide back out because of all the ignorance of people reading this are probably going to make them mad instead of using basic deduction and googling.

  9. #249
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    What is there to take a stance against? Providing in game services for in game gold? On this line of thinking you wouldn't be able to make gear and sell it on the ah cause thats boosting people's ilvl. Giving another play gold to be like 'hey help me with this' is a core idea of how trading works.

    What would the rule be? You can pay gold for any source of in game power except if it comes from in an instance???
    Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    There are a number of issues with each of the proposed solutions I have seen for the "problem" of boosting.

    • If Blizzard outlaws boosting, it just gets pushed into different channels. People would still boost, they just wouldn't call it boosting. (Suddenly 10/10M guilds are charging gold for trials and they accept anybody!)
    • If Blizzard outlaws the advertisement of boosting a la FFXIV I doubt it changes much. The people running the boosting communities have access to a near infinite number of accounts and the benefit from advertising their service is likely worth more to them than the cost of creating new accounts to advertise with.
    • If Blizzard creates a new "services" channel I can see players feeling better about not having to see the advertisements but this doesn't actually address the issue of boosting, it just makes it less visible. It's like the shit NYC is doing with park benches, designing them in a way that homeless people won't sleep on them. It makes the homeless people less visible, but it doesn't actually, y'know, solve the problem with homeless people existing in the first place.
    • If Blizzard makes it easier to get max item level gear, it grossly impacts one of the core gameplay mechanics upon which WoW has operated for decades. The argument I see is that Blizzard should eliminate gear from the equation and make everything prestige based. This seems like a great idea on paper but I was around for CModes and remember distinctly how little interest there was in them. WoW isn't just about shiny things; it's about shiny things and big numbers. You can't have one without the other.

    Personally, I don't think any of the proposed solutions are really all that great. I also think that the actual problem itself isn't as big of an issue as it's often made out to be. Blizzard does profit from boosting but if we go by what the Gallywix admin said on Twitter, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Blizzard is bringing in from other services. If the solution has more negative side effects than doing nothing at all, why bother?
    What are the negatives of taking a stance against advertising against boosting in game?

    What are the negatives of punishing those who do it via player reports?

    All I see from your explanations are "It won't stop boosting COMPLETELY, so why bother?"

    It's like... "why make laws against murder, it won't stop it completely, so why bother?"


    Reducing the visibility of boosting, as well as making it a black market transaction and activity will significantly reduce the incidence of it happening. I have no delusions that it will stop it completely, but you know it has become far more common since the WoW token. Blizzard has taken no stand against it.

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I knew a Blizzard employee that worked as customer service on player tickets. They and everyone else they knew around the office multi-boxed in their free time. This was from BC til about Cata. To me, as someone who had a window in, knew exactly why Blizzard didn't take a stand against multi boxing until recently.

    It's purely speculation, and I have no proof, but I'd put money in a bet that there are likely Blizzard employees who boost. And probably not just for gold.

    On top of that, Blizzard knows boosting pushes token sales. You know it pushes token sales. Anyone who denies it is either lying or ignorant. That's not speculation, that's a fact.

    The last 10 years of gaming have taught me, there are people willing to spend thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars on video games just for cool and flashy things, waifus, prestige, and everything else.

    What's that saying certain political arguments always make... "Follow the money"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zentail View Post
    Just gonna slide on into here to quickly mention that Boosting has almost no effect on any MMORPGs considering nearly 100% of them have had active boosting since the very beginning (yes, WoW included, and yes, many of us remember accurately back then because we were also selling boosts in '04-05).

    Or, to phrase it better, the effects of boosting are actually unknown because we've yet to experience a massive-scale MMORPG without boosting.

    And I'm going to slide back out because of all the ignorance of people reading this are probably going to make them mad instead of using basic deduction and googling.
    People keep thinking this "Boosting has always existed" argument somehow changes anything. It doesn't. Keeping boosting against the rules makes it much harder for players to participate in it. If you have to use Chinese gold sellers to get the in game money, then hunt around unofficial forums for dubious sellers that might just steal your money and run, people are far less likely to do it.

    In Vanilla WoW, people bought boosts, sure. But tons of them also got hacked by visiting gold selling sites. Tons of them got their money stolen because many of the boosters were scammers.

    Maintaining boosting as an activity that is against the TOS creates situations that deter players from doing it. If you can just pay Blizzard a bunch of IRL money IN GAME, get a ton of gold, and go to some official regulated boosting site that's out in the open, far more people are going to partake because of the convenience and safety of their account.




    But I've thoroughly made my point. Boosting has driven a great many number of players away from the game. Players who feel like the integrity of the game is the lowest it's ever been with boosting now so common and easy to do. If people want to defend boosting in WoW, that's their right. And it's other people's right to quit.

    BFA lost 44% of normal raiding players between 8.0 and 8.1

    Shadowlands has lost 55% of normal mode raiders between 9.0 and 9.1

    Ahead of the curve kills among raiding guilds is at all time lows.



    Some of you may not like Bellular for revealing uncomfortable statistics. Some of you may dislike him for his views on maintaining the game's integrity. But he knows what he's talking about, and it's clear WoW is going in the wrong direction for maintaining players.

    I'm not arguing that boosting has caused this drop, but it is certainly a factor that leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, and adds to much of the discontent.

    If this is the game you like, if this is how you want the game to be, have at it.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2021-11-24 at 01:53 AM.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  10. #250
    Scarab Lord The-Shan's Avatar
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    GDKP+non-RMT boosting doesnt bother me. the presence of the token that makes it P2W does.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

    - - - Updated - - -



    What are the negatives of taking a stance against advertising against boosting in game?

    What are the negatives of punishing those who do it via player reports?

    All I see from your explanations are "It won't stop boosting COMPLETELY, so why bother?"

    It's like... "why make laws against murder, it won't stop it completely, so why bother?"


    Reducing the visibility of boosting, as well as making it a black market transaction and activity will significantly reduce the incidence of it happening. I have no delusions that it will stop it completely, but you know it has become far more common since the WoW token. Blizzard has taken no stand against it.

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I knew a Blizzard employee that worked as customer service on player tickets. They and everyone else they knew around the office multi-boxed in their free time. This was from BC til about Cata. To me, as someone who had a window in, knew exactly why Blizzard didn't take a stand against multi boxing until recently.

    It's purely speculation, and I have no proof, but I'd put money in a bet that there are likely Blizzard employees who boost. And probably not just for gold.

    On top of that, Blizzard knows boosting pushes token sales. You know it pushes token sales. Anyone who denies it is either lying or ignorant. That's not speculation, that's a fact.

    The last 10 years of gaming have taught me, there are people willing to spend thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars on video games just for cool and flashy things, waifus, prestige, and everything else.

    What's that saying certain political arguments always make... "Follow the money"?

    - - - Updated - - -



    People keep thinking this "Boosting has always existed" argument somehow changes anything. It doesn't. Keeping boosting against the rules makes it much harder for players to participate in it. If you have to use Chinese gold sellers to get the in game money, then hunt around unofficial forums for dubious sellers that might just steal your money and run, people are far less likely to do it.

    In Vanilla WoW, people bought boosts, sure. But tons of them also got hacked by visiting gold selling sites. Tons of them got their money stolen because many of the boosters were scammers.

    Maintaining boosting as an activity that is against the TOS creates situations that deter players from doing it. If you can just pay Blizzard a bunch of IRL money IN GAME, get a ton of gold, and go to some official regulated boosting site that's out in the open, far more people are going to partake because of the convenience and safety of their account.




    But I've thoroughly made my point. Boosting has driven a great many number of players away from the game. Players who feel like the integrity of the game is the lowest it's ever been with boosting now so common and easy to do. If people want to defend boosting in WoW, that's their right. And it's other people's right to quit.

    BFA lost 44% of normal raiding players between 8.0 and 8.1

    Shadowlands has lost 55% of normal mode raiders between 9.0 and 9.1

    Ahead of the curve kills among raiding guilds is at all time lows.



    Some of you may not like Bellular for revealing uncomfortable statistics. Some of you may dislike him for his views on maintaining the game's integrity. But he knows what he's talking about, and it's clear WoW is going in the wrong direction for maintaining players.

    I'm not arguing that boosting has caused this drop, but it is certainly a factor that leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, and adds to much of the discontent.

    If this is the game you like, if this is how you want the game to be, have at it.
    imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw

  12. #252
    Mechagnome Indigenously Abled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw
    You just demolished him with facts and logic. Checkmate, that guy!
    Thanks for the ad-hominem; it supports your inability to support your argument.

  13. #253
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw
    Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.
    It's not like YouTube's algorithm which encourages negativity would possibly have any impact on the conclusions he's looking to draw.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.
    Dont the raid tracking sites literally use API data which is entirely is based on player-ran scripts and addons: which requires opt-in for number counting? If thats the case, you will always have the argument where there is doubt in the fullness of the numbers because there is blindspots as well as biases that exist of those sites as well (not anti-WoW bias, but the general data collection biases that happen in those fields).
    Last edited by TidalConflux; 2021-11-24 at 02:43 AM.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.
    which are you against? boosting or advertising?

    Maybe try answering the question instead of going on a tangent about how other games stand against ADVERTISEMENTS. So I'll repeat, what EXACTLY do you want blizzard's stance to be?

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Indigenously Abled View Post
    You just demolished him with facts and logic. Checkmate, that guy!
    i've made the exact same number of points that bellular did.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Got any solutions that don't involve outlawing boosting for gold?
    make content accessible to bad players

  19. #259
    Mechagnome Indigenously Abled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    i've made the exact same number of points that bellular did.
    Zinger after zinger.
    Thanks for the ad-hominem; it supports your inability to support your argument.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    It's not like YouTube's algorithm which encourages negativity would possibly have any impact on the conclusions he's looking to draw.
    This is taken from Blizzards own API and from the recent shareholder reports. My dude, I get you love this game and will defend it literally over any slight criticism but this is just sad.

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