Blizzard don't ban boosting because THEY are the boosters...crazy

[Indigenously Abled]

And yet your only response to my pointing at his video for how much 9.0 to 9.1 raiding has dropped was



So you didn't even address the actual argument presented, nor the numbers in the video, you just created a reason to dismiss his videos outright. Going to guess you didn't watch even a second of the video. A LOT of the video is not bellular's opinions. It's a presentation of numbers.

That's the definition of being useless to the conversation, not engaging in what is said. Finding a lame reason to outright dismiss the speaker, rather than the facts within. Address the meat of the argument presented or be called useless to the conversation.



Ah look, you finally address the argument I was making a page ago.

Never said it was the sole reason. That's the conclusion YOU jumped to.

It certainly is contributing.

TOS and policing boosting wouldn't stop it completely. But it certain would help in this backward slide the game is in.

Then again, it's very likely there is no recovery from this backslide. Most of the constructive feedback may as well be farts in the wind. As long as people buy into and embrace every piece of monetization thrown at them, and the more it creates record profits (regardless of player participation or satisfaction) the more Blizzard is going to go in that direction. It's why I see seasonal content and battle passes past 10.0 being a very likely thing to happen. Blizzard IS a company after all. They need to make money. Do you hate capitalism? I certainly don't.

How to argue with bad faith actors 101: don't.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Boosting is the gaming equivalent of sexwork. /mindblown

I've noticed the parallels between boosting, sex work, and even marijuana and other recreational drugs. And while there are quite a few parallels, I do think a game, where the CORE GAMEPLAY PROGRESSION METHOD is gearing and raid progression, and that core gameplay is also competitive, having a method to just bypass that core gameplay, is quite a bit different from bodily autonomy issues.

[MoanaLisa]

To all of those who claim that boosting is a very tiny percentage, let me ask you one thing:

Do you think the boosting spam in trade chat means that there's more boosters, more demand for boosting, both, or neither?

I couldn't say. I'm firmly on team "No one knows" but I can say that it doesn't take very many guilds spamming chat channels to make it look very crowded. The real answer is how many ads are answered, executed and gold exchanged. We don't know that either.

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Are his ideas less valid because he bought gold?

Illegally? Yeah, his ideas should be dismissed right out. That right there corrupts any other thoughts he might have about WoW's gold economy and how it should be managed. Easy call.

EDIT: As for the ridiculous sexwork business, it's a private transaction between a person and another person, group, company, institution or what have you. The parallels are the same except that you have added a questionable moral layer that boosting is prostitution. Fine. It's also like buying any service.

Get gas at the gas station. Pay the man with a credit card. Your car gets a "boost". Big fucking deal.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Illegally? Yeah, his ideas should be dismissed right out. That right there corrupts any other thoughts he might have about WoW's gold economy and how it should be managed. Easy call.

If anything, I'd say someone participating in the more illicit side has a far better idea of how much this stuff impacts the game and its integrity more than someone who just blissfully buys only the Blizzard sanctioned stuff. Does it make him a hypocrite? Sure. Are the points he makes less valid? I don't think so. I'd say they're more valid than the blissfully unaware person.

I've botted in MMOs before. I don't now, and have not for awhile, but it gave me great insight into exactly how bots work, how to spot them, how to find them and identify them even if they appear like a normal player. Modern bots are incredibly sophisticated at making a character appear like a real player, and even have some AI conversational cues. And I'm not talking about Chinese bots, but bots that are marketed to players. I won't argue ever that I botted for justifiable reasons. It felt dirty. It was dirty, which is why I quit.

I also know just how much botting impacts the work people genuinely put into the game for farming and crafting. Before botting was tremendously common, going out and farming a ton materials got you boat loads of money. As botting increases, those same materials became extremely common and become worth pennies. Someone turns on their bot, goes to sleep, and wakes up with a couple of thousand herbs or whatever.

So, is my saying "botting is bad for the in game economy, and Blizzard should hire GMs to more actively police in game botting by studying how bots work and how to spot them" invalid or wrong? If anything, I'd say it's all the more insightful and informed on the subject. If you've ever watched Psycho Pass, think of that.

Additionally, Scripe talks about far more than just removing the WoW token. There's a lot to unpack which is why the video is over an hour long. Why would you just throw every single opinion out? Because he bought gold from Gallywix? You're entitled to your opinion, but to me that just sounds like plugging your ears. There's a better analogy, I know there is, but I can't think of it at the moment.

[Tyris Flare]

Well I mean, the numbers came FROM Blizzard's own API. Bellular just put them into easily digestible graphic format. But you're right. Numbers are fake if people don't like the messenger.

Tucker Carlson also often posts "correct" statistics, yet I have a feeling based on your politics posts that you probably aren't a fan of him. You don't have to dispute a fact to think that the messenger is a plague. Even if you agree with Bellular it is possible to also believe that he is a cynical, bad-faith actor using the cheapest tactics to motivate a disillusioned audience. He is a WoW demagogue.

Contrast this with Preach, who decided to just stop making WoW videos rather than turn into a negative click-farming monster. Probably a bad financial move (at least in the short term), but there's a great indication of a very significant difference in creators.

If you want people to acknowledge flaws in the game (which is fine, though in the case of many people here it seems strangely obsessive), maybe try to acknowledge that some of the people profiting on your rage are not your friends.

--

Anyway, for the real point, I am actually in favor of them taking *some* steps to reduce boosting. I think the professionalization of it is more detrimental than some people want to believe. Again it's the equivalent of having to find your dealer vs just driving up to CVS. When something is easy, more people will do it. You may not be able to stop something, but you could absolutely slow it down.

I think the issue with doing that is mostly just that it would cost resources they don't want to spend, especially since now Blizzard gets a cut. That's the main difference with boosting in the past - instead of paying some 20 year old kid money to get you gladiator or whatever, now the giant corporation gets to wet their beak in exchange for security.

[Icecat]

Man, I can't fathom thinking that an independent creator like Bellular is a "real" enemy of the consumer or the WoW community. They're just a group of human beings who built a totally modest career out of critiquing a corrupt games industry, and they're even using that platform to make their own art. Outside of some potentially annoying YouTube thumbnails, I see absolutely no problem here.

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Tucker Carlson also often posts "correct" statistics

he doesn't, actually.

[Celestraza]

Tbh the only thing that annoys me is that most raiders in my classic guild were putting up insane minimal requirements for raiding but only meetibg these requirements themselves by buying gold with real money for gear, enchants and consumables.

So I strongly dislike boosting. That said I think a GDKP system would be fine without gold sellers/traders and tokens. Probably more fair than most loot systems.

[Bakis]

WoW-Tokens... ugh...
Kinda hard to get a feeling of accomplishment when almost everything ingame can be sidestepped by simply swiping ones creditcard.
And that in turn leaves players to become less attached to their character(s) making the turnover quicker which in turn make BLZ increase the amount of payed services and junk in the Store.

WoW has basically been made into a game where more and more just play/try the game close to/close after a launch of the a new expansion and possibly 1 raid into it then unsub due to lack of content and on top of that not getting a personal feeling of accomplishment of character progression cos the next player just do the same with pay2win features.
WoW still has a long lifecycle left but in order for the game to become good in such a simple metric as more active players for a longer amount of time there is a TON of issues and design policy shifts that need to happen.

Personally I think that wont be done quickly but I do have Frozen Throne Classic to look forward to while waiting for retail to hopefully end up worth playing again.

[kenn9530]

First Mike Ybarra gloats about raid boosting in retail, and now lead WoW Classic dev Brian Birmingham admits to doing GDKP runs with his guild and enjoying it.

We are all aware that Blizzard profits from boosting via wow tokens, but it genuinely never occurred to me that key figures in Blizzard were actually just...also boosters. I wonder if any of them engage in RMT on the sly?

(I can't post the source because I haven't posted much - but its in an interview posted on Wowhead.)

Boosting is not against ToS, and it actually gives a reason for players to keep playing otherwise even more players would stop playing because WoW gets boring fast, without the ability to boost WoW subs would be far lower than they currently are.

[Relapses]

Boosting is not against ToS, and it actually gives a reason for players to keep playing otherwise even more players would stop playing because WoW gets boring fast, without the ability to boost WoW subs would be far lower than they currently are.

If you use the argument against boosting that a lot of people in this thread are using it's doubly ironic when you consider the WoW token literally buys you a subscription. The game is simultaneously bleeding subs and retaining subs thanks to the same feature!

[kenn9530]

If you use the argument against boosting that a lot of people in this thread are using it's doubly ironic when you consider the WoW token literally buys you a subscription. The game is simultaneously bleeding subs and retaining subs thanks to the same feature!

Boosting just happens in all games its something that has to just be accepted, its a good way for dedicated players to earn gold ingame and good for lazy/unskilled players to get things they normally wouldnt have access to, complaining about it is a waste of time and mostly done by the players who cant do it themselves.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Boosting is not against ToS, and it actually gives a reason for players to keep playing otherwise even more players would stop playing because WoW gets boring fast, without the ability to boost WoW subs would be far lower than they currently are.

That's of course if you forget about all of the people who are disgusted with the boosting spam, and everyone who's discontent that the idea of the accomplishments of them and their guildmates can be bypassed by a credit card swipe.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.

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If you use the argument against boosting that a lot of people in this thread are using it's doubly ironic when you consider the WoW token literally buys you a subscription. The game is simultaneously bleeding subs and retaining subs thanks to the same feature!

The WoW token can also buy you WoW store and even Blizzard store stuff. WOW. Completely demolishing this silly tangent about the WoW token being the one thing saving WoW subs sure was easy!

[Raelbo]

The desire might always be there, but ease of access is the issue.
It's a combination of a loose bot policy and the safety of Blizzard's own RMT tokens that have facilitated the boosting plague.

Boosting used to happen in the form of RMT GDKP runs - a risky proposition that required bots/gold farmers and RMT before the token was a thing.
Now that it's 'safe' to buy a boost, more people engage in it.

Did you ever consider any alternative explanations? Like that the kind of content in WoW has become a lot more boost-friendly. The most notable form of content whose advent coincides with this "plague" of boosting is M+.

Why is that a problem? Boosting hurts guilds. Maybe not the top guilds or casual guilds, but guilds in the middle of the pack. Why struggle to clear raids with other people of differing skill levels and commitment when for a simple swipe, you can have a 'professional' escort and have loot handed to you?

For me, raiding with a guild is a huge part of the experience. And it's not like someone who wants gear and achievements faster, and chooses to get boosted, can't continue to raid with their guild. However if someone is going to stop raiding with their guildies simply because they managed to get the gear elsewhere, then I have to question the merit of them being there in the first place.

As I see it, you're essentially arguing here that there is value in forcing these people to stay in guilds by denying other avenues for their mercenary desires. And that is a point I simply don't agree on (and if I am mistaken in my interpretation of your argument, then please feel free to correct me on that).

I think a sizable portion of the 'roster-boss' issue is people getting frustrated with progression and resorting to buying a quick AOTC.
Is that a bad thing? I'd think so. I can't imagine people buying a AOTC boost breaking out in discord nerd screams.
Something of value has been lost.

Why exactly are you blaming boosting though? As I read it, your argument is framing boosting as a symptom of another problem. You don't solve problems by treating symptoms.

[Mardux]

That's of course if you forget about all of the people who are disgusted with the boosting spam, and everyone who's discontent that the idea of the accomplishments of them and their guildmates can be bypassed by a credit card swipe.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.

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The WoW token can also buy you WoW store and even Blizzard store stuff. WOW. Completely demolishing this silly tangent about the WoW token being the one thing saving WoW subs sure was easy!

TIL warcraftlogs doesn't exist. Does anyone know whatever happened to that site? It was nice because it made it EXTREMELY easy to see which toons got carried for keys/raids and which ones put the work in.

[kenn9530]

That's of course if you forget about all of the people who are disgusted with the boosting spam, and everyone who's discontent that the idea of the accomplishments of them and their guildmates can be bypassed by a credit card swipe.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.

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The WoW token can also buy you WoW store and even Blizzard store stuff. WOW. Completely demolishing this silly tangent about the WoW token being the one thing saving WoW subs sure was easy!

It doesnt hurt anything, you can easily see what players have been boosted or not so achievements dont really mean all that much, the only ones disgusted by the boosts are players who either cant afford to use them or skilled enough to run them, there is no real reason to continue clearing content unless there is a mount to get so boosting runs keep players active for longer to earn easy gold.

[Hastis]

but ppl get monthly salary for boosting lol

[Cthulhu 2020]

TIL warcraftlogs doesn't exist. Does anyone know whatever happened to that site? It was nice because it made it EXTREMELY easy to see which toons got carried for keys/raids and which ones put the work in.

Ah yes, the good ole "If they're not in a top guild/they didn't get a purple parse then it wasn't pay to win because we can all see they bought their boost."

[Chakah]

Did you ever consider any alternative explanations? Like that the kind of content in WoW has become a lot more boost-friendly. The most notable form of content whose advent coincides with this "plague" of boosting is M+.

Now that Blizzard is profiting off of boosting, they have an incentive to create more or "better" boost-friendly content? Seems pretty obvious to me.

For me, raiding with a guild is a huge part of the experience. And it's not like someone who wants gear and achievements faster, and chooses to get boosted, can't continue to raid with their guild. However if someone is going to stop raiding with their guildies simply because they managed to get the gear elsewhere, then I have to question the merit of them being there in the first place.

For me as well - but I think its pretty common in the mid-tier guilds to have to deal with players of 'questionable' (or at least differing) commitment. Thats why it's not a serious issue for the most competitive guilds or the most casual guilds. Its not always the players you expect either - my mythic raid lead from BFA bought his Nathria AOTC after we were stuck at 9/10 for a month.

Of course - this doesn't apply for mythic raids because of the lockout where you are either in or out that whole week.

As I see it, you're essentially arguing here that there is value in forcing these people to stay in guilds by denying other avenues for their mercenary desires. And that is a point I simply don't agree on (and if I am mistaken in my interpretation of your argument, then please feel free to correct me on that).

I am certainly not arguing that boosting is solely responsible for roster issues. Far from it.
But getting gear/mounts/achievements has to have an effort cost or it becomes worthless. Historically, the cost has been the raid progression, but boosting bypasses that cost with money(cash or gold). By facilitating boosting, you are changing the balance from favoring 'skilled' or 'dedicated' players to one favoring 'rich' players. And despite Batman's claims, being rich isn't a superpower - it's more like a cheat code.

[Raelbo]

Now that Blizzard is profiting off of boosting, they have an incentive to create more or "better" boost-friendly content? Seems pretty obvious to me.

That is conspiracy theory thinking. Are you honestly trying to argue that challenge mode dungeons and later M+ were created with the primary intent of creating more boosting so that they could sell more tokens?

What seems a lot more obvious to me is that they created this kind of competitive group content because they predicted, correctly, that this content would prove highly popular. The fact that this kind of content creates a demand for boosting is entirely incidental.

Completely independently of this Blizzard recognised that players want to be able to trade gold for cash. And they saw an opportunity to turn this into revenue for themselves while simultaneously addressing a lot of the problems associated with third party goldselling activities - notably the amount of scamming and fraud that players were being exposed to and the amount of harm that goldseller bots were doing to the game.

With regards to Blizzard's support of boosting activities, I don't particularly believe that the revenue they get from token sales related specifically to boosting factors that much into this. There is already a strong enough argument to be made as to why Blizzard should allow boosting for gold without the token factor.

TL;DR: Am I denying the fact that Blizzard benefit financially from the Token-Boosting relationship? No, of course not. It's obvious. Do I believe that this financial incentive was the reason they allow boosting? No, I don't. That's an entirely different argument that has not been substantiated.

For me as well - but I think its pretty common in the mid-tier guilds to have to deal with players of 'questionable' (or at least differing) commitment. Thats why it's not a serious issue for the most competitive guilds or the most casual guilds.

Yes, fine, but my point is that this is not the fault of boosting. It's a fault with the player concerned, and banning boosting won't miraculously solve the problem.

Its not always the players you expect either - my mythic raid lead from BFA bought his Nathria AOTC after we were stuck at 9/10 for a month.

Did they stop raiding with the guild after this? And if so, what exactly was their motivation for doing so? If not, then why is it even an issue?

But getting gear/mounts/achievements has to have an effort cost or it becomes worthless. Historically, the cost has been the raid progression, but boosting bypasses that cost with money(cash or gold).

Well, it can. If you're prepared to wait until the content is on farm for other players. And if you're happy to be carried by other players. I am not really sure what your point here is though.

If someone cares only for the gear/mounts/achievements and has zero desire to actually complete the content themselves, then what exactly is being lost by allowing them to pay others to carry them? And I honestly don't see how this affects the vast majority of players who actually want to complete the content ourselves

By facilitating boosting, you are changing the balance from favoring 'skilled' or 'dedicated' players to one favoring 'rich' players.

I disagree completely.

For a start, these "rich" players have to rely on those who are skilled and/or dedicated to carry them. Secondly I would argue that the experience of getting carried is fundamentally different from defeating the content as a contributing team member.

This is very different to an actual p2w game where the tools you need to defeat the boss are locked behind a pay wall.

And despite Batman's claims, being rich isn't a superpower - it's more like a cheat code.

Whether you choose to call it a superpower or a cheat code is irrelevant. WoW is a very social game. And in almost any situation where other people are involved, having money IRL is going to give you an advantage. Taking away tokens won't change that. Nor will banning boosting for gold. It will simply drive that behaviour underground and set up a situation that is beneficial to neither the players or the game itself.

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That's of course if you forget about all of the people who are disgusted with the boosting spam

I have known many people who have quit WoW over the years, and never has "disgust with boosting spam" been a factor. I am not going to argue that such players don't exist, but I doubt they're particularly prevalent.

and everyone who's discontent that the idea of the accomplishments of them and their guildmates can be bypassed by a credit card swipe.

What accomplishments exactly? Bear in mind that when someone buys a boost they are getting other players to carry them through content. It's not the credit card that defeats the boss. It's those players that defeat the boss.

Furthermore, the vast majority of players who get "carried" through content aren't even using their credit card to do so.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.

Most people don't give a shit about boosting. It exists, they know it exists, and it simply doesn't affect them either way. This fixation on how boosting is hurting this game's integrity is a minority opinion, the importance of which tends to be exaggerated by it's proponents.

The WoW token can also buy you WoW store and even Blizzard store stuff. WOW. Completely demolishing this silly tangent about the WoW token being the one thing saving WoW subs sure was easy!

Firstly, just because you can buy other stuff with the token doesn't preclude its use as a means of paying one's subscription. Secondly, no one said that the token was "the one thing saving WoW".

[chiddie]

Got any solutions that don't involve outlawing boosting for gold?

Yes, but you won’t like it: make the boosts useless or irrelevant gear wise, apart from achievements.

How? Give players non boost-need content that give rewards else obtained via boosting.