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  1. #321
    The Patient Chakah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Did you ever consider any alternative explanations? Like that the kind of content in WoW has become a lot more boost-friendly. The most notable form of content whose advent coincides with this "plague" of boosting is M+.
    Now that Blizzard is profiting off of boosting, they have an incentive to create more or "better" boost-friendly content? Seems pretty obvious to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    For me, raiding with a guild is a huge part of the experience. And it's not like someone who wants gear and achievements faster, and chooses to get boosted, can't continue to raid with their guild. However if someone is going to stop raiding with their guildies simply because they managed to get the gear elsewhere, then I have to question the merit of them being there in the first place.
    For me as well - but I think its pretty common in the mid-tier guilds to have to deal with players of 'questionable' (or at least differing) commitment. Thats why it's not a serious issue for the most competitive guilds or the most casual guilds. Its not always the players you expect either - my mythic raid lead from BFA bought his Nathria AOTC after we were stuck at 9/10 for a month.

    Of course - this doesn't apply for mythic raids because of the lockout where you are either in or out that whole week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    As I see it, you're essentially arguing here that there is value in forcing these people to stay in guilds by denying other avenues for their mercenary desires. And that is a point I simply don't agree on (and if I am mistaken in my interpretation of your argument, then please feel free to correct me on that).
    I am certainly not arguing that boosting is solely responsible for roster issues. Far from it.
    But getting gear/mounts/achievements has to have an effort cost or it becomes worthless. Historically, the cost has been the raid progression, but boosting bypasses that cost with money(cash or gold). By facilitating boosting, you are changing the balance from favoring 'skilled' or 'dedicated' players to one favoring 'rich' players. And despite Batman's claims, being rich isn't a superpower - it's more like a cheat code.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Now that Blizzard is profiting off of boosting, they have an incentive to create more or "better" boost-friendly content? Seems pretty obvious to me.
    That is conspiracy theory thinking. Are you honestly trying to argue that challenge mode dungeons and later M+ were created with the primary intent of creating more boosting so that they could sell more tokens?

    What seems a lot more obvious to me is that they created this kind of competitive group content because they predicted, correctly, that this content would prove highly popular. The fact that this kind of content creates a demand for boosting is entirely incidental.

    Completely independently of this Blizzard recognised that players want to be able to trade gold for cash. And they saw an opportunity to turn this into revenue for themselves while simultaneously addressing a lot of the problems associated with third party goldselling activities - notably the amount of scamming and fraud that players were being exposed to and the amount of harm that goldseller bots were doing to the game.

    With regards to Blizzard's support of boosting activities, I don't particularly believe that the revenue they get from token sales related specifically to boosting factors that much into this. There is already a strong enough argument to be made as to why Blizzard should allow boosting for gold without the token factor.

    TL;DR: Am I denying the fact that Blizzard benefit financially from the Token-Boosting relationship? No, of course not. It's obvious. Do I believe that this financial incentive was the reason they allow boosting? No, I don't. That's an entirely different argument that has not been substantiated.




    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    For me as well - but I think its pretty common in the mid-tier guilds to have to deal with players of 'questionable' (or at least differing) commitment. Thats why it's not a serious issue for the most competitive guilds or the most casual guilds.
    Yes, fine, but my point is that this is not the fault of boosting. It's a fault with the player concerned, and banning boosting won't miraculously solve the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Its not always the players you expect either - my mythic raid lead from BFA bought his Nathria AOTC after we were stuck at 9/10 for a month.
    Did they stop raiding with the guild after this? And if so, what exactly was their motivation for doing so? If not, then why is it even an issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    But getting gear/mounts/achievements has to have an effort cost or it becomes worthless. Historically, the cost has been the raid progression, but boosting bypasses that cost with money(cash or gold).
    Well, it can. If you're prepared to wait until the content is on farm for other players. And if you're happy to be carried by other players. I am not really sure what your point here is though.

    If someone cares only for the gear/mounts/achievements and has zero desire to actually complete the content themselves, then what exactly is being lost by allowing them to pay others to carry them? And I honestly don't see how this affects the vast majority of players who actually want to complete the content ourselves

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    By facilitating boosting, you are changing the balance from favoring 'skilled' or 'dedicated' players to one favoring 'rich' players.
    I disagree completely.

    For a start, these "rich" players have to rely on those who are skilled and/or dedicated to carry them. Secondly I would argue that the experience of getting carried is fundamentally different from defeating the content as a contributing team member.

    This is very different to an actual p2w game where the tools you need to defeat the boss are locked behind a pay wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    And despite Batman's claims, being rich isn't a superpower - it's more like a cheat code.
    Whether you choose to call it a superpower or a cheat code is irrelevant. WoW is a very social game. And in almost any situation where other people are involved, having money IRL is going to give you an advantage. Taking away tokens won't change that. Nor will banning boosting for gold. It will simply drive that behaviour underground and set up a situation that is beneficial to neither the players or the game itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    That's of course if you forget about all of the people who are disgusted with the boosting spam
    I have known many people who have quit WoW over the years, and never has "disgust with boosting spam" been a factor. I am not going to argue that such players don't exist, but I doubt they're particularly prevalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    and everyone who's discontent that the idea of the accomplishments of them and their guildmates can be bypassed by a credit card swipe.
    What accomplishments exactly? Bear in mind that when someone buys a boost they are getting other players to carry them through content. It's not the credit card that defeats the boss. It's those players that defeat the boss.

    Furthermore, the vast majority of players who get "carried" through content aren't even using their credit card to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.
    Most people don't give a shit about boosting. It exists, they know it exists, and it simply doesn't affect them either way. This fixation on how boosting is hurting this game's integrity is a minority opinion, the importance of which tends to be exaggerated by it's proponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The WoW token can also buy you WoW store and even Blizzard store stuff. WOW. Completely demolishing this silly tangent about the WoW token being the one thing saving WoW subs sure was easy!
    Firstly, just because you can buy other stuff with the token doesn't preclude its use as a means of paying one's subscription. Secondly, no one said that the token was "the one thing saving WoW".

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Got any solutions that don't involve outlawing boosting for gold?
    Yes, but you won’t like it: make the boosts useless or irrelevant gear wise, apart from achievements.

    How? Give players non boost-need content that give rewards else obtained via boosting.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    No you didn't.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wrong.

    Using real money to purchase in-game currency is the definition of P2W.
    I explicitly mentioned how you could use real money to not purchase in game currency but still benefit by having more money such as more accounts, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I think the issue here is that, and that's just speculation on my part, that could come across as endorsement of boosting by Blizzard.

    While people generally talk about how Blizzard makes money from boosting, the flipside is that quite likely a lot of those boosting companies are neckdeep in RMT.
    After all, those boosting companies take a sizeable cut for organizing that shit and i doubt they're just doing it to play WoW for free or buy stuff on the BMAH.

    The endgame is basically that people:
    -Buy Gold off some RMT site
    -Purchase a boost at some boosting community
    -boosting company sells the gold to RMT site
    -Person buys gold again to buy another boost

    When you talk about millions of gold per run from a single person, that's no longer financed by the WoW Token, you save hundreds of dollars by going off to RMT websites as far as larger sums are concerned, disregarding the cap on purchasing Tokens (altough you can bypass by owning multiple accounts, afaik).
    However, don't take that as a hint that the WoW Token doesn't fuel the market, especially the lower priced Heroic and M+ are certainly heavily fueled by the WoW Token and also helped to grow to such an industrious scale.
    And it also wouldn't surprise if some whales exist that use multiple WoW accounts to partially bypass the WoW token cap.
    By doing nothing about the advertising, they already endorse it.

  5. #325
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If you use the argument against boosting that a lot of people in this thread are using it's doubly ironic when you consider the WoW token literally buys you a subscription. The game is simultaneously bleeding subs and retaining subs thanks to the same feature!
    Since Blizzard gets more money if people buy their sub with gold, I don't see why that is a bad thing for them.
    Hi

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Why would anyone care about boosting, so long as it isn't for real money?

    Yes, you can buy in-game gold for real money, and I agree that is a problem, but I believe it should be examined separately from what people may choose to do with that gold.
    That's literally the exact problem. Gold earning has been fucking hammered over and over again to get people to buy tokens for whatever they need.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I legitimately don't have an issue with boosting on its own. The issue I have is how rampant it is due to the inclusion of the WoW token; Players are essentially back and forth trading gold and WoW tokens between boosters and boostees at this point.

    I have no issue with someone farming herbs for a month straight in order to earn their mythic kill grey parse; I have an issue that I could create a new account today and get the gold to do it a few hours later (with Blizzard's consent). Gold making has never seemed so meaningless.

    Boosting will always exist, regardless of if it's permitted; But right now it's border-line encouraged by Blizzard.
    I'd say its not borderline its definitively encouraged by Blizzard, since they've created tiered gear ilvls and the literal president advertises for them on his stream. Plus the fact 75% of LFG is still "WTS" despite having authenticated accounts that should be easy to ban, since the argument that they're "compromised accounts" is no longer true.

    I don't see a single positive in boosting but at least a dozen negatives.

  8. #328
    Legendary! Zelk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    That's literally the exact problem. Gold earning has been fucking hammered over and over again to get people to buy tokens for whatever they need.
    Where's the gold coming from then?

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    I don't see a single positive in boosting but at least a dozen negatives.
    Removing boosting doesn't solve any of the negatives. It doesn't even remove boosting since players will still boost, they just won't call it boosting anymore.
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  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Removing boosting doesn't solve any of the negatives. It doesn't even remove boosting since players will still boost, they just won't call it boosting anymore.
    I didn't even list the negatives so how can you say that? All of the negatives I am thinking about are directly caused by boosting, so banning boosters/boosting would most definitely eliminate every negative that was caused by it. I'm confused why you'd choose to say this.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    I didn't even list the negatives so how can you say that? All of the negatives I am thinking about are directly caused by boosting, so banning boosters/boosting would most definitely eliminate every negative that was caused by it. I'm confused why you'd choose to say this.
    Because it's proof that you're living in an alternate reality if you (or anybody else) think the idea of removing boosting would come close to fixing any of WoW's many problems.
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  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Why would anyone care about boosting, so long as it isn't for real money?

    Yes, you can buy in-game gold for real money, and I agree that is a problem, but I believe it should be examined separately from what people may choose to do with that gold.
    Why would it be a problem if you are separating it from what people do with the gold?

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Because it's proof that you're living in an alternate reality if you (or anybody else) think the idea of removing boosting would come close to fixing any of WoW's many problems.
    But I didn't give even 1 example. You just said it wouldn't help any of them, without even knowing what 1 issue is let alone the entire dozen that I have just off the top of my head. And now you're shifting the focus away from the issues Boosting creates, to WoW's overall problems which is an entirely different discussion. Theres never been a more clearly defined example of you not knowing what you're talking about, so if anyone is living in an alternate reality its you pal.

  14. #334
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I have known many people who have quit WoW over the years, and never has "disgust with boosting spam" been a factor. I am not going to argue that such players don't exist, but I doubt they're particularly prevalent.
    Boosting has grown recently, and most people are just sick with the game. The integrity of raiding and raid gear going down the shitter has certainly been one factor for many people I've known. It's not been the cornerstone, nor has it been the straw that broke the camel, but it's a weight against WoW for them all the same



    What accomplishments exactly? Bear in mind that when someone buys a boost they are getting other players to carry them through content. It's not the credit card that defeats the boss. It's those players that defeat the boss.

    Furthermore, the vast majority of players who get "carried" through content aren't even using their credit card to do so.
    "The credit card didn't kill the boss, the player did!"

    I...

    Just wow.

    I don't really know how to respond to this other than I can't believe you ACTUALLY said something like this. Yes, of course, the credit card doesn't do the carrying. But the player's corpse gets dragged across the finish line by everyone else in the raid.

    You also underestimate how many under table deals happen in the boosting community. Plenty of guilds just straight up accept paypal, and when a carry happens the player hands over a token amount of gold which is later traded back just so they can hide among all the other gold buyers.

    Furthermore, credit card -> WoW token -> gold still ultimately counts as credit card.



    Most people don't give a shit about boosting. It exists, they know it exists, and it simply doesn't affect them either way. This fixation on how boosting is hurting this game's integrity is a minority opinion, the importance of which tends to be exaggerated by it's proponents.
    Sure, the few remaining players in the game I imagine have no issue with boosting, WoW token, bad design, sexual harassment, or anything else. So you're right on that count. There are people who still play Runescape, and 20 years from now there will still be people playing WoW.



    Firstly, just because you can buy other stuff with the token doesn't preclude its use as a means of paying one's subscription. Secondly, no one said that the token was "the one thing saving WoW".
    The poster I was responding to was trying to find some weird ass hypocrisy or maybe lack of consistent logic between the two statements that the WoW token is both simultaneously driving people away but was also super popular and bought a ton so that must mean that there are tons of people subbing through WoW token! Except for the fact that, ya know, a lot of that WoW token business goes into the store.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Removing boosting doesn't solve any of the negatives. It doesn't even remove boosting since players will still boost, they just won't call it boosting anymore.
    Yep, and we should make theft legal too, because making it illegal won't stop people from doing it.
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  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yep, and we should make theft legal too, because making it illegal won't stop people from doing it.
    Boosting is not equivalent to theft. This is not an argument.
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  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Removing boosting doesn't solve any of the negatives. It doesn't even remove boosting since players will still boost, they just won't call it boosting anymore.
    That's basically the issue. I am against boosting because it simply promotes a way to play the game where you don't really have to play it, just pay someone to do it for you. Makes the average player worse and the actual interaction between player worse.

    However it's just impossibile to remove it. Players are just hardwired to go the path of least resistance. What was cookie cutter builds became meta and now has become boosts.

    EDIT: in an ideal world boosting won't exist, but reality is another thing.

    EDIT2: the only real way to make boosting disappear is to make it just useless. Either content is so easy that you don't need people fight for you, or not give any power related reward etc. Basically, drastic changes in the endgame reward loop that we're never going to see.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2021-11-30 at 07:13 PM.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Why would anyone care about boosting, so long as it isn't for real money?

    Yes, you can buy in-game gold for real money, and I agree that is a problem, but I believe it should be examined separately from what people may choose to do with that gold.
    Because it changes the dynamics and purpose of the entire game. Instead of ppl doing (to play / have fun), ppl just buy (to have). The more popular boosting is, the less ppl try to actually play and form communities.

    Boosting also becomes the core purpose of big guilds. A job. Making money. Not playing. This in turn means that the boosting guilds will try to make it easier for themselves in the long run. Anything RNG will be condemned. Anything implying any type of grind will be condemned. Any type of bonus that would actually help lower progression guilds (like titanforging) will be condemned. And this all sounds great, right? But that only makes it so big guilds can be done as fast as possible so they can get to boosting. In turn, others will have less incentive to stick around. They might also hit a wall in their own progression because there are less nerfing mechanics based on time and luck. I mean an average group that never does mythic raiding and is around 235 ilvl can kill KT hc easily but can't touch Sylvanas hc. But it's fine, because you can buy a Sylvanas kill for the equivalent of 5$...

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Now that Blizzard is profiting off of boosting, they have an incentive to create more or "better" boost-friendly content? Seems pretty obvious to me.
    obvious to me too. It just means more systems that are tedious but simple enough to afk in a group for. More tiered content. More grinds. A bigger focus on crafting with inflated AH prices on matts. ETC ETC. I can see it coming already in 9.2

  19. #339
    Boosting has - and always will - exist. The only difference is now the majority of the gold being used is at least generating Blizzard some money.

    Doesn't mean it's not bots, stolen card details and such that still cause havoc but boosting isn't going to go away unless you make it against the rules which is just stupid.

    While everyone here loves to just moan and whine, what are the solutions you could employ that keep "legitimate" boosting from the community while still hampering / preventing gold making enterprises that siphon off the gold to sell.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
    But I didn't give even 1 example. You just said it wouldn't help any of them, without even knowing what 1 issue is let alone the entire dozen that I have just off the top of my head. And now you're shifting the focus away from the issues Boosting creates, to WoW's overall problems which is an entirely different discussion. Theres never been a more clearly defined example of you not knowing what you're talking about, so if anyone is living in an alternate reality its you pal.
    I don't need to know any of the issues you have with removing boosting because removing boosting isn't a valid stance to have.
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