Page 19 of 23 FirstFirst ...
9
17
18
19
20
21
... LastLast
  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If you meant to say that the only way to solve boosting is for WoW to be a different game, yeah. I guess. That much is obvious, I don't know why you'd make such an observation.
    It would be different only if your fun comes from seeing the majority go around naked while you’re dressed like a Gold Saint.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    If you go back a few pages, this was already discussed. Apparently the valid cure for boosting is to give everybody full Mythic BiS as a reward for typing in your username and password. And Mythic raiders will apparently be perfectly okay if the only thing they get for completing the hardest difficulty content in the game is a cool transmog. As somebody who remembers CModes and how completely ineffective they were as a motivating factor for people who play this game I guess I'm in the minority for calling this a very, very bad idea.
    Yeah it wasn't a proposal, it was just a statement. If there's a valuable reward, there will be people willing to pay for a boost. If there's no valuable reward, there's no boost but also no partecipation. It simply won't work.

    I can be against boosts, but i know facts talk by themselves. In the end, WoW becomes exactly the game people play due to how they play it.

    EDIT: and as you said later (and i agree with) changes required to nullify boosting would be so heavy and impactful that it would be a completely different game. GW2 comes to mind with its fully horizontal progression

    EDIT2: if we take cmodes in mop, despite them being just a cosmetic reward, boosting was rampant there aswell. Just much less people cared about it.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2021-12-01 at 05:38 AM.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  3. #363
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Boosting has grown recently, and most people are just sick with the game.
    Correlation vs causation fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The integrity of raiding and raid gear going down the shitter has certainly been one factor for many people I've known. It's not been the cornerstone, nor has it been the straw that broke the camel, but it's a weight against WoW for them all the same
    Even then, I suspect this is more an issue of false perceptions than reality. When people are sick of the game they tend to imagine all kinds of shit to back their narrative, just as you're doing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    "The credit card didn't kill the boss, the player did!"

    I...

    Just wow.

    I don't really know how to respond to this other than I can't believe you ACTUALLY said something like this.
    Well yeah, that's not surprising. You've not really shown much ability to put together arguments here, only to make assertions that you think are self evident, when really, they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yes, of course, the credit card doesn't do the carrying. But the player's corpse gets dragged across the finish line by everyone else in the raid.
    Dude, this in an MMO. Players' corpses are dragged across the finish line by other players ALL THE TIME. It's part an parcel of the MMO experience. And players will carry/be carried by other players under all sorts of arrangements, of which paying by gold (of which some small fraction is funded by tokens) is just one such arrangement. And while I totally agree that ideally people should be doing content on the basis of such things as friendship and loyalty and team spirit, you have given absolutely no reason why anyone should be concerned about any other type of arrangement that was agreed to, without duress, by two consenting parties.

    And while you're perfectly entitled to not like such an arrangement, the solution couldn't be simpler: Don't partake in it, either as a booster or boostee. Stop trying to force your own petty views on how things should be on everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    You also underestimate how many under table deals happen in the boosting community. Plenty of guilds just straight up accept paypal, and when a carry happens the player hands over a token amount of gold which is later traded back just so they can hide among all the other gold buyers.
    1) I've made no comment regarding my estimates on how many under-the-table deals happen
    2) I have zero reason to believe your estimates given your tendency to make unsubstantiated claims combined with your very clear anti-Blizzard bias and frequent use of exaggeration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Furthermore, credit card -> WoW token -> gold still ultimately counts as credit card.
    My comment was never arguing against the fact that a credit card is used. It was about what it buys (either directly or indirectly). And that is the help of other players. And the distinction between buying the help of other players and buying a literal bypass of content is important. For a start it places some pretty major constraints on what can and cannot be bypassed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Sure, the few remaining players in the game I imagine have no issue with boosting, WoW token, bad design, sexual harassment, or anything else.
    Oh, so now I am in favour of sexual harassment because I don't take issue with boosting or the WoW token? And you have the gall to try and tell me that my arguments are flabbergasting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    The poster I was responding to was trying to find some weird ass hypocrisy or maybe lack of consistent logic between the two statements that the WoW token is both simultaneously driving people away but was also super popular and bought a ton so that must mean that there are tons of people subbing through WoW token! Except for the fact that, ya know, a lot of that WoW token business goes into the store.
    I am fully aware of what you responded to. I am not that lazy that I don't bother to check what I am responding to. I stand by my response to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Yep, and we should make theft legal too, because making it illegal won't stop people from doing it.
    Disingenuous analogy. Theft would be analogous to 3rd party goldseller activity (botting, account hacking etc). Boosting is literally people helping other people for money. It's like hiring a maid to clean your home, or a gardener to cut your lawn. Why you see fit to compare it to a criminal activity when you've done zero to substantiate that viewpoint boggles the mind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Why do people think that this "point" means anything?
    Because it has huge implications for effect the token has on the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    It doesn't matter where it came from, if I am able to buy gold with irl money than the games economy is fkd up. Full stop.
    Well you're wrong. Where it came from directly affects whether or not it fucks up the game economy. My argument would be that, if anything, tokens actually help to stimulate the economy - which is a good thing.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT2: if we take cmodes in mop, despite them being just a cosmetic reward, boosting was rampant there aswell. Just much less people cared about it.
    Right -- it's a solution that not only fundamentally changes how the game plays...but also doesn't really fix the issue with boosting. In other words -- not a solution.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  5. #365
    These threads are so dumb. Boosting literally does not affect you as a player. It does not. To pretend it does is disingenuous. I have paid for mine and my brother's gametime for almost 2 years just doing scheduled Raid Sales through my guild. It's great. And at no point is someone running around with 10/10M on their tool tip that didn't earn it affecting your game play.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by holywhiskers View Post
    These threads are so dumb. Boosting literally does not affect you as a player. It does not. To pretend it does is disingenuous. I have paid for mine and my brother's gametime for almost 2 years just doing scheduled Raid Sales through my guild. It's great. And at no point is someone running around with 10/10M on their tool tip that didn't earn it affecting your game play.
    At least you admit you are biased.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    At least you admit you are biased.
    Sure I'm bias. I love boosting. I haven't needed gold or had to pay real money on WoW in a long time. Have an argument for how boosting affects your game play as a non booster and non boost buyer?

  8. #368
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    At least you admit you are biased.
    Just because he's biased doesn't mean he's wrong. If he is wrong though, the bias might explain why. Personally though I would agree with him. The achievements of those he helped to boost really shouldn't have any effect on anyone else.

  9. #369
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    8,161
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Boosting can be reduced. Even though it happened back in vanilla, it was policed by Blizzard still, so it had to be VERY under the table and subtle. And most people didn't do it because it wasn't a visible part of the game.

    Again, we circle back to "May as well not make something against the rules because people will do it anyway" is a bad argument in its entirety. No matter how you phrase it, it's a terrible argument.

    "May as well not make theft illegal, people still gonna steal"
    "May as well not make murder illegal, people still gonna kill others"
    "May as well not make money laundering illegal, just allow that illegal money to flow cause people gonna do it anyway!"

    It's a terrible terrible argument. Making it against the rules and policing it makes it go underground. It reduces the visibility. It removes the validity. It removes Blizzard's tacit acceptance of it. It would reduce it. Nobody is claiming any solution would get rid of it in its entirety, but to deny that making it against the ToS would reduce it is just 1000% wrong, and you know it's wrong.
    i can't agree with u anymore, this post needs to be pinned here, maybe it will reach some ppl skulls'
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by holywhiskers View Post
    Sure I'm bias. I love boosting. I haven't needed gold or had to pay real money on WoW in a long time. Have an argument for how boosting affects your game play as a non booster and non boost buyer?
    Dude, if you run M+ mostly by pugging, boosted ppl are an issue. Because they don’t know mechanics and they can’t compensate their mistakes simply with gear. And you can’t always see they’ve been boosted until the run starts and it’s too late.

  11. #371
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Centrelink
    Posts
    1,190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that boosting is keeping the game alive. Even the most ardent WoW stans know it's hurting the game's integrity and just feel there's no point in fighting it any more because Blizzard gonna Blizzard.
    Most people that were gonna boost would do it anyway token or not. The token is actually a pretty clever way to help keep raiders and hardcore m+ players keep on top of their expenses in the game while doing the difficult and somewhat time consuming content without having to resort to rmt. Either directly or indirectly.

    There are players out there that would rather get boosted than play the game. Weird I know but that's how they are. If they can't get boosted then they simply won't play.

  12. #372
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,185
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, if you run M+ mostly by pugging, boosted ppl are an issue. Because they don’t know mechanics and they can’t compensate their mistakes simply with gear. And you can’t always see they’ve been boosted until the run starts and it’s too late.
    If you run M+ by pugging, you're going to have a myriad of issues involving people who don't know mechanics with or without boosted players being in the mix.

    Here's a point to consider: if boosting wasn't an option, then most of these people would probably be trying to use M+ to gear up. At least with boosting in the picture a lot of them will be able to get their gear without bothering pugs at all.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Boosting can be reduced. Even though it happened back in vanilla, it was policed by Blizzard still, so it had to be VERY under the table and subtle. And most people didn't do it because it wasn't a visible part of the game.

    Again, we circle back to "May as well not make something against the rules because people will do it anyway" is a bad argument in its entirety. No matter how you phrase it, it's a terrible argument.

    "May as well not make theft illegal, people still gonna steal"
    "May as well not make murder illegal, people still gonna kill others"
    "May as well not make money laundering illegal, just allow that illegal money to flow cause people gonna do it anyway!"

    It's a terrible terrible argument. Making it against the rules and policing it makes it go underground. It reduces the visibility. It removes the validity. It removes Blizzard's tacit acceptance of it. It would reduce it. Nobody is claiming any solution would get rid of it in its entirety, but to deny that making it against the ToS would reduce it is just 1000% wrong, and you know it's wrong.
    Well yeah. If you make something illegal it is illegal...

    But why should they make it against ToS? It is the time and money of the parties doing it.

    I don't even think Blizz makes much money of people buying tokens to buy boosts... it is just way to expensive to pay one Mythic clear run.
    Most Tokens probably get sold to people who buy consumables because they don't want to farm or don't have the time.
    And even then it has still no effect on your game... the people buying boosts are either good players with no interest in groups or bad players who will never find a group without boosting and even after they got it won't stay long in any group.

    I really don't get the problem with boosting tbh. I don't use it either way and it never had any effect on me.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Dude, if you run M+ mostly by pugging, boosted ppl are an issue. Because they don’t know mechanics and they can’t compensate their mistakes simply with gear. And you can’t always see they’ve been boosted until the run starts and it’s too late.
    It is quite easy to spot people that have been boosted in M+:
    If a person just has one 15+ dungeon completed of each dungeon then it is probably a boost.
    'If selfsame person has done none or almost none dungeons in the 10-14 bracket as well then it is just confirmation of the above.

    If you keep getting groups where people are "boosted" or "bad" then you should work on your raider.io-reading-skills and people picking skills.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhiskers View Post
    These threads are so dumb. Boosting literally does not affect you as a player. It does not. To pretend it does is disingenuous. I have paid for mine and my brother's gametime for almost 2 years just doing scheduled Raid Sales through my guild. It's great. And at no point is someone running around with 10/10M on their tool tip that didn't earn it affecting your game play.
    People like you aren't the problem. The problem is that there are people that want stuff that they are unable to achieve themselves and are willing to pay for it.
    And all the self-righteous "boost haters" in this thread are going after skilful people like you instead of going after the pathetic losers that are buying boosts.

    The only realistic way to "combat this" is to go ruthlessly after the buyers: Name them, shame them, ostracize them.
    As long as there is a demand skilful and ingenious people will supply that demand.
    Combatting skilful and ingenious people is much harder than going after stupid losers.
    It makes me wonder if there is some deep underlying psychological reason why the "boost haters" completely ignore the buyers...

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    There are a number of issues with each of the proposed solutions I have seen for the "problem" of boosting.

    • If Blizzard outlaws boosting, it just gets pushed into different channels. People would still boost, they just wouldn't call it boosting. (Suddenly 10/10M guilds are charging gold for trials and they accept anybody!)
    • If Blizzard outlaws the advertisement of boosting a la FFXIV I doubt it changes much. The people running the boosting communities have access to a near infinite number of accounts and the benefit from advertising their service is likely worth more to them than the cost of creating new accounts to advertise with.
    • If Blizzard creates a new "services" channel I can see players feeling better about not having to see the advertisements but this doesn't actually address the issue of boosting, it just makes it less visible. It's like the shit NYC is doing with park benches, designing them in a way that homeless people won't sleep on them. It makes the homeless people less visible, but it doesn't actually, y'know, solve the problem with homeless people existing in the first place.
    • If Blizzard makes it easier to get max item level gear, it grossly impacts one of the core gameplay mechanics upon which WoW has operated for decades. The argument I see is that Blizzard should eliminate gear from the equation and make everything prestige based. This seems like a great idea on paper but I was around for CModes and remember distinctly how little interest there was in them. WoW isn't just about shiny things; it's about shiny things and big numbers. You can't have one without the other.

    Personally, I don't think any of the proposed solutions are really all that great. I also think that the actual problem itself isn't as big of an issue as it's often made out to be. Blizzard does profit from boosting but if we go by what the Gallywix admin said on Twitter, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Blizzard is bringing in from other services. If the solution has more negative side effects than doing nothing at all, why bother?
    You are correct all the way.

    The game is now rotted. There is no saving it from boosters and gold sellers. There is literraly no prestige left in the game in any activity.

    I have been receiving applications for recruitment from idiots, 10/10mythic that only would consider 10/10 guilds. Upon close inspection those idiots have 1 kill per boss on mythic in the same week... Like really? Nope they do not have the skill, stamina, gameplay, dedication to be a 10/10 player.

    Sad. really sad state of the game.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Why would anyone care about boosting, so long as it isn't for real money?

    Yes, you can buy in-game gold for real money, and I agree that is a problem, but I believe it should be examined separately from what people may choose to do with that gold.
    But people will do the whole mental gymnastics that because the WoW token exists Blizzard wants people to boost so they'll buy more tokens, or some other tinfoil stuff. These guys think up cynical conspiracy theories for everything.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  17. #377
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Again, we circle back to "May as well not make something against the rules because people will do it anyway" is a bad argument in its entirety. No matter how you phrase it, it's a terrible argument.
    The merit of the argument depends on the context. It is a weak argument when there is a strong argument to keep something against the rules. But given that you have consistently failed to bring any argument to bear in that regard (you simply keep repeating the same assertions without backing them up), it is a sufficient argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    "May as well not make theft illegal, people still gonna steal"
    "May as well not make murder illegal, people still gonna kill others"
    "May as well not make money laundering illegal, just allow that illegal money to flow cause people gonna do it anyway!"
    Yeah, speaking of "terrible terrible arguments" this is a case in point. Your entire argument here presupposes that boosting is somehow analogous to real life crime. This is an assertion that, as I already pointed out, you've never bothered to substantiate.

    I can accept that maybe boosting can be regarded in a poor light by some, but at worst it's analogous to something like watching porn, smoking weed, or wearing Crocs and socks in public. Some people might wish these were crimes, but really, they aren't, nor should they be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Making it against the rules and policing it makes it go underground. It reduces the visibility. It removes the validity. It removes Blizzard's tacit acceptance of it. It would reduce it.
    All of which is utterly unnecessary because boosting is not this heinous crime you want to pretend it is. So making it against the rules would simply cause a lot of harm and achieve nothing good. Making it a terrible terrible suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Nobody is claiming any solution would get rid of it in its entirety, but to deny that making it against the ToS would reduce it is just 1000% wrong, and you know it's wrong.
    Ok, I'll agree that making it against ToS would reduce it. But that doesn't make it any less of a terrible idea. Trying to reducing something that isn't a real problem by introducing a lot of very real problems would be not smart.
    Last edited by Raelbo; 2021-12-01 at 12:46 PM.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    EDIT2: the only real way to make boosting disappear is to make it just useless. Either content is so easy that you don't need people fight for you, or not give any power related reward etc. Basically, drastic changes in the endgame reward loop that we're never going to see.
    The Zul Aman bear runs show that people will still want boosts even if their is no power involved, just requires a goal. The vanilla WOW PvP titles probably had boosting going on for real world cash.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post


    Well you're wrong. Where it came from directly affects whether or not it fucks up the game economy. My argument would be that, if anything, tokens actually help to stimulate the economy - which is a good thing.
    No it literally doesn't. The moment irl money is introduced into a game's economy it is all fkd up and displaced and corrupted. Your point is how fkd up it would or would not be, depending on where the gold came from, while trying to ignore the fact that it's all corrupted regardless lmao.

    And yeah tokens do stimulate the economy. With and because of irl money. That's why it's no longer has integrity...

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    And yeah tokens do stimulate the economy. With and because of irl money. That's why it's no longer has integrity...
    Is this where we pretend WoW was a lightning rod of integrity before the token existed?
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •