Blizzard don't ban boosting because THEY are the boosters...crazy

[Cthulhu 2020]

It isn't. Again, good chat.

Blizzard could have taken a stance on boosting, or even regulated it heavily. They haven't. They've been silent on it.

Blizzard makes the rules for their game. That boosting has exploded since the WoW token, and Blizzard has taken no stance against it is a tacit endorsement.

And yes, it is a tacit endorsement. Please look up the meaning of that phrase. They could have taken a direct stance of "No advertising boosting services in game" like certain other MMOs did, but they haven't.

That boosting communities are thriving, growing large, and even making their own structures, apps and systems bespeaks of their success.

Boosting is pushing token sales. Token sales create a legitimate avenue for buying boosting for those who do not want to risk their account with Chinese RMT.



Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.

[Elbob]

Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.

What is there to take a stance against? Providing in game services for in game gold? On this line of thinking you wouldn't be able to make gear and sell it on the ah cause thats boosting people's ilvl. Giving another play gold to be like 'hey help me with this' is a core idea of how trading works.

What would the rule be? You can pay gold for any source of in game power except if it comes from in an instance???

[MoanaLisa]

I think the issue here is that, and that's just speculation on my part, that could come across as endorsement of boosting by Blizzard.

They've been consistent and clear for all 17 years that player transactions using gold are fine. A services channel may or may not be an answer since most of the available chat channels are ignored but I doubt that Blizzard has any problems whatsoever with how players spend their gold provided they obtain it in-game or through legal channels (token).

[Relapses]

Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.

There are a number of issues with each of the proposed solutions I have seen for the "problem" of boosting.

• If Blizzard outlaws boosting, it just gets pushed into different channels. People would still boost, they just wouldn't call it boosting. (Suddenly 10/10M guilds are charging gold for trials and they accept anybody!)
• If Blizzard outlaws the advertisement of boosting a la FFXIV I doubt it changes much. The people running the boosting communities have access to a near infinite number of accounts and the benefit from advertising their service is likely worth more to them than the cost of creating new accounts to advertise with.
• If Blizzard creates a new "services" channel I can see players feeling better about not having to see the advertisements but this doesn't actually address the issue of boosting, it just makes it less visible. It's like the shit NYC is doing with park benches, designing them in a way that homeless people won't sleep on them. It makes the homeless people less visible, but it doesn't actually, y'know, solve the problem with homeless people existing in the first place.
• If Blizzard makes it easier to get max item level gear, it grossly impacts one of the core gameplay mechanics upon which WoW has operated for decades. The argument I see is that Blizzard should eliminate gear from the equation and make everything prestige based. This seems like a great idea on paper but I was around for CModes and remember distinctly how little interest there was in them. WoW isn't just about shiny things; it's about shiny things and big numbers. You can't have one without the other.

Personally, I don't think any of the proposed solutions are really all that great. I also think that the actual problem itself isn't as big of an issue as it's often made out to be. Blizzard does profit from boosting but if we go by what the Gallywix admin said on Twitter, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Blizzard is bringing in from other services. If the solution has more negative side effects than doing nothing at all, why bother?

[Kralljin]

I doubt that Blizzard has any problems whatsoever with how players spend their gold provided they obtain it in-game or through legal channels (token).

I mean, that's the point, boosting is also fueled a decent degree by RMT.

If Blizzard had no issues with boosting being pushed into its own channel, i think we would have that solution already.

[Zentail]

Just gonna slide on into here to quickly mention that Boosting has almost no effect on any MMORPGs considering nearly 100% of them have had active boosting since the very beginning (yes, WoW included, and yes, many of us remember accurately back then because we were also selling boosts in '04-05).

Or, to phrase it better, the effects of boosting are actually unknown because we've yet to experience a massive-scale MMORPG without boosting.

And I'm going to slide back out because of all the ignorance of people reading this are probably going to make them mad instead of using basic deduction and googling.

[Cthulhu 2020]

What is there to take a stance against? Providing in game services for in game gold? On this line of thinking you wouldn't be able to make gear and sell it on the ah cause thats boosting people's ilvl. Giving another play gold to be like 'hey help me with this' is a core idea of how trading works.

What would the rule be? You can pay gold for any source of in game power except if it comes from in an instance???

Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

- - - Updated - - -

There are a number of issues with each of the proposed solutions I have seen for the "problem" of boosting.

• If Blizzard outlaws boosting, it just gets pushed into different channels. People would still boost, they just wouldn't call it boosting. (Suddenly 10/10M guilds are charging gold for trials and they accept anybody!)
• If Blizzard outlaws the advertisement of boosting a la FFXIV I doubt it changes much. The people running the boosting communities have access to a near infinite number of accounts and the benefit from advertising their service is likely worth more to them than the cost of creating new accounts to advertise with.
• If Blizzard creates a new "services" channel I can see players feeling better about not having to see the advertisements but this doesn't actually address the issue of boosting, it just makes it less visible. It's like the shit NYC is doing with park benches, designing them in a way that homeless people won't sleep on them. It makes the homeless people less visible, but it doesn't actually, y'know, solve the problem with homeless people existing in the first place.
• If Blizzard makes it easier to get max item level gear, it grossly impacts one of the core gameplay mechanics upon which WoW has operated for decades. The argument I see is that Blizzard should eliminate gear from the equation and make everything prestige based. This seems like a great idea on paper but I was around for CModes and remember distinctly how little interest there was in them. WoW isn't just about shiny things; it's about shiny things and big numbers. You can't have one without the other.

Personally, I don't think any of the proposed solutions are really all that great. I also think that the actual problem itself isn't as big of an issue as it's often made out to be. Blizzard does profit from boosting but if we go by what the Gallywix admin said on Twitter, it's pennies on the dollar compared to what Blizzard is bringing in from other services. If the solution has more negative side effects than doing nothing at all, why bother?

What are the negatives of taking a stance against advertising against boosting in game?

What are the negatives of punishing those who do it via player reports?

All I see from your explanations are "It won't stop boosting COMPLETELY, so why bother?"

It's like... "why make laws against murder, it won't stop it completely, so why bother?"


Reducing the visibility of boosting, as well as making it a black market transaction and activity will significantly reduce the incidence of it happening. I have no delusions that it will stop it completely, but you know it has become far more common since the WoW token. Blizzard has taken no stand against it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I knew a Blizzard employee that worked as customer service on player tickets. They and everyone else they knew around the office multi-boxed in their free time. This was from BC til about Cata. To me, as someone who had a window in, knew exactly why Blizzard didn't take a stand against multi boxing until recently.

It's purely speculation, and I have no proof, but I'd put money in a bet that there are likely Blizzard employees who boost. And probably not just for gold.

On top of that, Blizzard knows boosting pushes token sales. You know it pushes token sales. Anyone who denies it is either lying or ignorant. That's not speculation, that's a fact.

The last 10 years of gaming have taught me, there are people willing to spend thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars on video games just for cool and flashy things, waifus, prestige, and everything else.

What's that saying certain political arguments always make... "Follow the money"?

- - - Updated - - -

Just gonna slide on into here to quickly mention that Boosting has almost no effect on any MMORPGs considering nearly 100% of them have had active boosting since the very beginning (yes, WoW included, and yes, many of us remember accurately back then because we were also selling boosts in '04-05).

Or, to phrase it better, the effects of boosting are actually unknown because we've yet to experience a massive-scale MMORPG without boosting.

And I'm going to slide back out because of all the ignorance of people reading this are probably going to make them mad instead of using basic deduction and googling.

People keep thinking this "Boosting has always existed" argument somehow changes anything. It doesn't. Keeping boosting against the rules makes it much harder for players to participate in it. If you have to use Chinese gold sellers to get the in game money, then hunt around unofficial forums for dubious sellers that might just steal your money and run, people are far less likely to do it.

In Vanilla WoW, people bought boosts, sure. But tons of them also got hacked by visiting gold selling sites. Tons of them got their money stolen because many of the boosters were scammers.

Maintaining boosting as an activity that is against the TOS creates situations that deter players from doing it. If you can just pay Blizzard a bunch of IRL money IN GAME, get a ton of gold, and go to some official regulated boosting site that's out in the open, far more people are going to partake because of the convenience and safety of their account.




But I've thoroughly made my point. Boosting has driven a great many number of players away from the game. Players who feel like the integrity of the game is the lowest it's ever been with boosting now so common and easy to do. If people want to defend boosting in WoW, that's their right. And it's other people's right to quit.

BFA lost 44% of normal raiding players between 8.0 and 8.1

Shadowlands has lost 55% of normal mode raiders between 9.0 and 9.1

Ahead of the curve kills among raiding guilds is at all time lows.



Some of you may not like Bellular for revealing uncomfortable statistics. Some of you may dislike him for his views on maintaining the game's integrity. But he knows what he's talking about, and it's clear WoW is going in the wrong direction for maintaining players.

I'm not arguing that boosting has caused this drop, but it is certainly a factor that leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, and adds to much of the discontent.

If this is the game you like, if this is how you want the game to be, have at it.

[Kehego]

Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

- - - Updated - - -



What are the negatives of taking a stance against advertising against boosting in game?

What are the negatives of punishing those who do it via player reports?

All I see from your explanations are "It won't stop boosting COMPLETELY, so why bother?"

It's like... "why make laws against murder, it won't stop it completely, so why bother?"


Reducing the visibility of boosting, as well as making it a black market transaction and activity will significantly reduce the incidence of it happening. I have no delusions that it will stop it completely, but you know it has become far more common since the WoW token. Blizzard has taken no stand against it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I knew a Blizzard employee that worked as customer service on player tickets. They and everyone else they knew around the office multi-boxed in their free time. This was from BC til about Cata. To me, as someone who had a window in, knew exactly why Blizzard didn't take a stand against multi boxing until recently.

It's purely speculation, and I have no proof, but I'd put money in a bet that there are likely Blizzard employees who boost. And probably not just for gold.

On top of that, Blizzard knows boosting pushes token sales. You know it pushes token sales. Anyone who denies it is either lying or ignorant. That's not speculation, that's a fact.

The last 10 years of gaming have taught me, there are people willing to spend thousands, to tens of thousands of dollars on video games just for cool and flashy things, waifus, prestige, and everything else.

What's that saying certain political arguments always make... "Follow the money"?

- - - Updated - - -



People keep thinking this "Boosting has always existed" argument somehow changes anything. It doesn't. Keeping boosting against the rules makes it much harder for players to participate in it. If you have to use Chinese gold sellers to get the in game money, then hunt around unofficial forums for dubious sellers that might just steal your money and run, people are far less likely to do it.

In Vanilla WoW, people bought boosts, sure. But tons of them also got hacked by visiting gold selling sites. Tons of them got their money stolen because many of the boosters were scammers.

Maintaining boosting as an activity that is against the TOS creates situations that deter players from doing it. If you can just pay Blizzard a bunch of IRL money IN GAME, get a ton of gold, and go to some official regulated boosting site that's out in the open, far more people are going to partake because of the convenience and safety of their account.




But I've thoroughly made my point. Boosting has driven a great many number of players away from the game. Players who feel like the integrity of the game is the lowest it's ever been with boosting now so common and easy to do. If people want to defend boosting in WoW, that's their right. And it's other people's right to quit.

BFA lost 44% of normal raiding players between 8.0 and 8.1

Shadowlands has lost 55% of normal mode raiders between 9.0 and 9.1

Ahead of the curve kills among raiding guilds is at all time lows.



Some of you may not like Bellular for revealing uncomfortable statistics. Some of you may dislike him for his views on maintaining the game's integrity. But he knows what he's talking about, and it's clear WoW is going in the wrong direction for maintaining players.

I'm not arguing that boosting has caused this drop, but it is certainly a factor that leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, and adds to much of the discontent.

If this is the game you like, if this is how you want the game to be, have at it.

imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw

[Indigenously Abled]

imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw

You just demolished him with facts and logic. Checkmate, that guy!

[Cthulhu 2020]

imagine citing clickbait "content creators" as legit points kekw

Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.

[Relapses]

Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.

It's not like YouTube's algorithm which encourages negativity would possibly have any impact on the conclusions he's looking to draw.

[TidalConflux]

Yeah man Bellular's statistics taken from raid tracking sites are totally fake because you think he's only about click bait. YOU GOT ME.

Dont the raid tracking sites literally use API data which is entirely is based on player-ran scripts and addons: which requires opt-in for number counting? If thats the case, you will always have the argument where there is doubt in the fullness of the numbers because there is blindspots as well as biases that exist of those sites as well (not anti-WoW bias, but the general data collection biases that happen in those fields).

[Elbob]

Several other games take a stance against advertising sale of boosts. If you WANT pay to win mechanics in WoW, that's your call.

- - - Updated - - -

Until Blizzard takes a firm stance AGAINST boosting, it's clear to anyone with a top-down perspective what's going on.

which are you against? boosting or advertising?

Maybe try answering the question instead of going on a tangent about how other games stand against ADVERTISEMENTS. So I'll repeat, what EXACTLY do you want blizzard's stance to be?

[Kehego]

You just demolished him with facts and logic. Checkmate, that guy!

i've made the exact same number of points that bellular did.

[nvaelz]

Got any solutions that don't involve outlawing boosting for gold?

make content accessible to bad players

[Indigenously Abled]

i've made the exact same number of points that bellular did.

Zinger after zinger.

[Varitok]

It's not like YouTube's algorithm which encourages negativity would possibly have any impact on the conclusions he's looking to draw.

This is taken from Blizzards own API and from the recent shareholder reports. My dude, I get you love this game and will defend it literally over any slight criticism but this is just sad.

[Relapses]

This is taken from Blizzards own API and from the recent shareholder reports. My dude, I get you love this game and will defend it literally over any slight criticism but this is just sad.

I'm not defending Blizzard. I'm calling out a useless grifter whose only purpose in life is to farm YouTube clicks for producing one mind-numbingly stupid "DAE WoW ded gaem" video after another. The numbers he references are used to build a singular negative narrative: Blizzard has failed with Shadowlands and the numbers prove it! People don't watch Bellular to find out what Blizzard can do improve the game. (Well unless they want to hear him make very deep claims like, "Blizzard should listen to the community.") They watch Bellular so they can reinforce their already negative opinions with vague statistics and rote talking points then post his dogshit videos in threads like this to "win" internet arguments. The game is in a shit state, the last thing it needs is some dickwad with a penchant for sensationalist claims making countless videos to "prove" the game sucks. Bellular's videos have done more harm to this community than any of Blizzard's idiotic design decisions ever could have.

[WowIsDead64]

I have the suspicion that Blizzard doesn't actually give a flying @#$& about sub numbers, since they are raking in more or less the same money as in MoP, the only difference being that playerbase is likely to be quite smaller this time. This means that every remaining player, as an average, is effectively paying much more than $15/month, and I really doubt that store cosmetics are the bulk of the difference.

Well, then sub fee isn't justified and should be removed. Yeah, back in Cata times, when I was warning you, that game won't be able to have the same quality with just 1M of subs, as hardcore players claimed, this guys told me, that it was nonsense. Now you see, that I was right.

[Thestrawman]

Nice ad hominem. Page me when you've got a real argument.

You admonishing someone for an ad hominem attack is rich.