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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    I had a lot of fears about this expansion, and pretty much all of them came true.
    So no, no disappointment.

    Honestly they should have taken more than the tiny margin they gave themselves with their absolute answers, also the music and art have been disappoijting so far.

    At least some of the smaller stories are somwhat decent, but the larger pic is just a garbage fire.
    The things OP criticized were obvious ever since they put out that weird in-engine trailer with Bolvar's narration and all of the zones looked like they could just as well be places on Azeroth or Outland. The whole "we're going to a different plane of existence" schtick automatically turns into an exercise in futility if that plane of existence behaves and looks like the normal world for all intents and purposes. In terms of aesthetics it's also basically just the "Can i copy your homework? - Sure, just change it up a little so that it doesnt look you copied it" meme.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The fact that Blizzard doubled on the extreme and chose nothing short of the Afterlife of reality itself made it just worse.
    As far as plot goes it is pretty hard to do worse than time travel and alternate reality and that is a bridge that has already been crossed.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Afrospinach View Post
    As far as plot goes it is pretty hard to do worse than time travel and alternate reality and that is a bridge that has already been crossed.
    Well, as far as mythology is concerned, i will disagree.

    At the end of the day time travel and alternate realities are elements that you can safely ignore, the book is closed on that and with the exception of "there are multiple legions", WoD in itself has been closed off.
    With Shadowlands however, it basically turns the Afterlife into a Theme perk and pretty much ruins any concept of the Afterlife of any Race.

    You have this already with Ol' Emma visiting the Shadowlands in order to see her dead sons, it's just so silly.

  4. #44
    Dreadlord sunxsera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Irrelevant?

    Specially lore wise, this is a key expansion. THe ultimate plan to destroy Azeroth (for yet unkown reasons) is about to be solved.
    There are sooo many questions left - i really don't think they can be solved in a single patch.

    Also pretty sure 9.2 will be like season 8 of game of thrones ... rushed. People won't be satisfied.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Exploring the Afterlife was a bad idea. There's no mystery. Hell, even grannies can visit Oribos like nothing
    This is so true. Not every question needs to be answered, or every area explored. Blank spots on the map let your imagination take over.

  6. #46
    Definitely agree there was a need for more DK focus. It was a good opportunity to expand on Bolvar's story in Legion but it was essentially all handwaved as "helm's gone, Bolvar's different now with absolutely no underhanded machinations", genuinely my biggest disappointment. We even see Ner'zhul which people had thought was controlling the helm and-nope, Ner'zhul's dead again.

    I do think the zones do capture the afterlives well, particularly Bastion's "otherworldly heavenly land not so much on clouds but like the stone is sculpted out of the clouds", really neat aesthetic, and Ardenweald is like everything I wanted out of the Emerald Dream crossed with everything I love about the night elf zones and Suramar so I take any excuse to go there.
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    It's not really filler at all though, and that's the problem. Shadowlands directly confronts one of the major cosmic powers in play and introduces the literal creators of the Warcraft universe. Whether you like it or not (I sure as hell don't), the story developments are far from filler.
    No different than WOD making the entire storyline of the Warcraft universe retarded with that "Legion transcends all timelines" nonsense which is treated as a major lore plot point.

    It's still filler and will be remembered as such. WoD was literal filler for Legion (great expansion that SAVED WoW), and Shadowlands will be the same. Filler for 10.0 Revamp.

  8. #48
    The zones are beautiful, the covenants are cool idea(not the unswappable abilities in the beginning though), the lore behind the Shadowlands was actually pretty good.

    The main problem for me was that it was only about the Sylvanas, a little about Anduin and even less about Tyrande.

    I feel like they missed the opportunity to focus evenly on each character... Like Tyrande + Winter Queen, Darion + Alexandros, Thrall + Draka, Uther + Arthas etc. I'd rather see plenty of the interraction between the established characters in the lore instead of one main topic that was poorly written Sylvanas plan.

  9. #49
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Filler for 10.0 Revamp.
    What about if 10.0 isn't a large scale revamp? How should SL be considered then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitsu View Post
    Shadowlands could have had half it's timegated, grindy, restrictive, pointless mechanics removed and replaced with nothing and it would have just been a straight up better game for it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    The zones are beautiful, the covenants are cool idea(not the unswappable abilities in the beginning though), the lore behind the Shadowlands was actually pretty good.

    The main problem for me was that it was only about the Sylvanas, a little about Anduin and even less about Tyrande.

    I feel like they missed the opportunity to focus evenly on each character... Like Tyrande + Winter Queen, Darion + Alexandros, Thrall + Draka, Uther + Arthas etc. I'd rather see plenty of the interraction between the established characters in the lore instead of one main topic that was poorly written Sylvanas plan.
    Yep I agree. The concept, the zones, the art, the music, I though they were all amazing. The lore at large, I love it. The specific plot and storytelling are a little more frustrating.
    There should have been more. More dialogue, more interactions, more points of view. And the ones that they focused on are continuously shrouded in mystery, we're always left with unknown motives and unexplained actions, to be revealed in an uncertain future. For a game of this nature, that slowly develops over the course of years, it feels very frustrating to me to have so little information for so long. It feels like characters are made to act in ways for which the reasoning is only thought about after the fact. Especially in Sylvanas' arc.

  11. #51
    It definitely feels like it and there are multiple reasons. They rushed the naga and N'zoth story. The naga problem should've - at the very least - been an expansion of its own, with the follow-up possibly being about a freed N'zoth and the Old Gods overall after we fail to stop their plans due to an Azeroth-wide assault on both Alliance and Horde strongholds.

    BfA could've remained a faction versus faction story, with the war boiling down to a simple resource and territory grab, mixed with old hatreds. Even the Teldrassil and Lordaeron scenarios could remain as they were, but they would simply have to be explained through different motivations. At the end of BfA, before the war comes to an end, the naga take the world by surprise when its defenders are the weakest and so starts 9.0. I wouldn't mind if it was revealed that Sylvanas was actually a mind-controlled servant of the Jailer all along, somewhere down the line in 11.0, but they absolutely needed a buildup to that point and a satisfcatory resolution to everything that happened before.

    The Shadowlands in and of themselves aren't the problem; the way it ties into everything else, the way it resolves certain stories and the way it was timed is.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 05:12 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    They rushed the naga and N'zoth story. The naga problem should've - at the very least - been an expansion of its own, with the follow-up possibly being about a freed N'zoth and the Old Gods overall after we fail to stop their plans due to an Azeroth-wide assault on both Alliance and Horde strongholds.

    BfA could've remained a faction versus faction story, with the war boiling down to a simple resource and territory grab, mixed with old hatreds. Even the Teldrassil and Lordaeron scenarios could remain as they were, but they would simply have to be explained through different motivations. At the end of BfA, before the war comes to an end, the naga take the world by surprise when its defenders are the weakest and so starts 9.0. I wouldn't mind if it was revealed that Sylvanas was actually a mind-controlled servant of the Jailer all along, somewhere down the line in 11.0, but they absolutely needed a buildup to that point and a satisfcatory resolution to everything that happened before.

    The Shadowlands in and of themselves aren't the problem; the way it ties into everything else, the way it resolves certain stories and the way it was timed is.
    This is pretty much what they should have done and what I'm fairly sure was in the pipeline at some stage, judging from the framing of the BFA intro cinematic and the initial marketing materials, as well as even BTS which all but states the end raid will be Sylvanas attacking Stormwind and that that's her objective. Then they instead pivoted to doing Mists 2.0 and also wasted all of their cred, rushing into Shadowlands without even finalizing the new villain's motive and while having tilted Sylvanas through a few separate motives. There are ways to do these plot beats, some retcons I'll even defend both conceptually and in terms of being good long-term for future stories (Dreadlords, natch), but BFA was a scorched earth removal of every built up plot point over the course of years and only didn't end the other pillar of the game, the factions, due to the business side backing out. Why they didn't back out while they were funding Afrasiabi's multi-million dollar Sadfang saga is beyond me, but what can you do.

    You can have a story where a war going poorly and the feeling that with a loss of power in the Horde and all but three of her val'kyr offed Sylvanas is offered a deal by a new villain, which later turns out to be a permutation of the Jailer character. It's in fact easier and more organic than retconning ten years worth of content in a haphazard fashion and engaging in humiliating nonsense like rewriting Kel'thuzad after shafting him in terms of screentime. But you need to actually build up to it. Shadowlands is a sequel following up on an introductory chapter that doesn't exist outside of an abandoned BFA design doc.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-11-28 at 05:20 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  13. #53
    I for one can say im very disappointed with it. There was so much they could of done, so many directions they could of gone, but they made the afterlife seem boring seem more "Sorting hat" from harry potter, Also it kinda Trvialises Death in the Warcraft universe, specially when anyone can go to Oribos now, so what makes the Maw Walker special? Not to mention the retcons, specially the ones that tried to do with Wc3 saying how Dreadlords, who worked with the jailer was fighting against jailer forces? and the fact the story was so rushed didnt help The Villain had no time to grow on us I never ever felt all that threatened by the Jailer. Sire seemed more of a Big bad, because of what you see during levelling in Revendrath.

    Its the same Problem going from Wrath to Cata, In wrath Arthas was a constant threat, always showing up every so often to taunt you being Involved in a few quests But you know he was a Major problem, go into Cata, deathwing breaks the world.... Then you dont see him till the last patch.

    If you want a Villain to be feared and for the players to care about him, you need them to be involved, not hidden away (or added last min like Nzoth)
    Last edited by Romanthony; 2021-11-28 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You can have a story where a war going poorly and the feeling that with a loss of power in the Horde and all but three of her val'kyr offed Sylvanas is offered a deal by a new villain, which later turns out to be a permutation of the Jailer character.
    This would've been much better, if not ideal, for setting up the Shadowlands down the line.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    This would've been much better, if not ideal, for setting up the Shadowlands down the line.
    Not going down that route was genuinely more difficult to do. Everything from having Teldrassil go first to the inexplicable plot point where Sylvanas somehow has majority support by the population despite her being the most mistrusted Horde leader outside of her race prior to that point is more contrived and harder to put in a story than just going off of what you've already built up. Consider the entire spiel where Sylvanas tricks the gullible blind masses into going to war and maintains her sky-high approval until the heroic elite faction leaders reveal her dupliciy and she ree-s out, causing world peace as everyone realizes it was actually the bad lady's fault all along. I don't know how it can be read as anything but hamhanded Californian political fanfiction, centered on how people can't actually have grievances with each other on material or social grounds but must have been deceived into disagreeing. Only to then have the guy in the top seat swap and to have the new guy wrench violently from a story where Sylvanas is the Devil incarnate, smarming every single line like she just got done eating a puppy sandwhich to suddenly being a misunderstood victim.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    What about if 10.0 isn't a large scale revamp? How should SL be considered then?
    Still filler to be honest. It just means 10.0 is also filler.

    It's not hard to spot those expansions that Blizzard gives up on right from the start.

  17. #57
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romanthony View Post
    , go into Cata, deathwing breaks the world.... Then you dont see him till the last patch.
    Deathwing was literally flying through the world, scorching the earth.
    He participates in several quests as well
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  18. #58
    Why have we not run into Mankrik's wife's soul yet?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Along with explaining and wrapping up *a lot* of stuff that's been core to Warcraft lore since WC3.

    Gameplay it's obvious it hasn't reaaaally been the best. However, in terms of lore, this is completely wrapping up a giant chapter in Warcraft lore. It's what comes next kinda worries me honestly.
    But its utterly cheap if your 'wrapping up' lore from WC3 by completely retconning everything to write an entirely different story.

    The Lich King was Ner'zul being punished for failing the Legion and working to bring about their latest invasion of Azeroth. The Jailer doesn't fit into that story and only 'solves it' by hammering a square peg in a round hole with a sledgehammer and then trying to proclaim the hole was always supposed to be square.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Etoo View Post
    Why have we not run into Mankrik's wife's soul yet?
    Actually we have in Maldraxxus. Decimator Olgra is in the burning thicket and makes references to quillboar.

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