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  1. #61
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    they keep disapointing us for years, i am not surprised how this shit got down in shadowlands. Legion was only good coz of demon hunters and kil jaeden and they killed them all after that. shadowlands is much worse, all characters potentual was crushed in this xpac.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    But its utterly cheap if your 'wrapping up' lore from WC3 by completely retconning everything to write an entirely different story.

    The Lich King was Ner'zul being punished for failing the Legion and working to bring about their latest invasion of Azeroth. The Jailer doesn't fit into that story and only 'solves it' by hammering a square peg in a round hole with a sledgehammer and then trying to proclaim the hole was always supposed to be square.
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old.

    The Jailer is the backbone of that story, seeing as the armor in which The Lich King was entrapped was created using domination magic. Shadowlands has given a huge backstory to pretty much everything behind the WC3 story, which in turn played a huge backbone in most of WoW's lore.

    Like the dev said in the 9.2 announcement video, this is basically ending one giant chapter in Warcraft lore.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Not going down that route was genuinely more difficult to do. Everything from having Teldrassil go first to the inexplicable plot point where Sylvanas somehow has majority support by the population despite her being the most mistrusted Horde leader outside of her race prior to that point is more contrived and harder to put in a story than just going off of what you've already built up. Consider the entire spiel where Sylvanas tricks the gullible blind masses into going to war and maintains her sky-high approval until the heroic elite faction leaders reveal her dupliciy and she ree-s out, causing world peace as everyone realizes it was actually the bad lady's fault all along. I don't know how it can be read as anything but hamhanded Californian political fanfiction, centered on how people can't actually have grievances with each other on material or social grounds but must have been deceived into disagreeing. Only to then have the guy in the top seat swap and to have the new guy wrench violently from a story where Sylvanas is the Devil incarnate, smarming every single line like she just got done eating a puppy sandwhich to suddenly being a misunderstood victim.
    A lot of opportunities to tell good Warcraft stories were wasted and they had a lot of possibilities to make them happen after Legion came to an end. They could've gone anywhere they wanted with the story after Legion. From telling smaller stories and building up a senseful faction war with relatable and easy-to-read signs and signals, to not wasting the entire naga plot and N'zoth within 2 patches.

    Appart from being hamhanded quasi-political fiction, it is also devoid of plots that might be percieved as emotionally insensitive in light of what is going on in the writers' immediate surroundings. There are recurring themes of victimhood, characters having mindnumbing changes of heart after everything has been said and done and there's a constant rinsing of anything even remotely relatable to what the creator finds to be a controversial topic in real life. You can't write Warcraft if you're scared of how your work will be percieved socially and ideologically. It is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old.

    The Jailer is the backbone of that story, seeing as the armor in which The Lich King was entrapped was created using domination magic. Shadowlands has given a huge backstory to pretty much everything behind the WC3 story, which in turn played a huge backbone in most of WoW's lore.

    Like the dev said in the 9.2 announcement video, this is basically ending one giant chapter in Warcraft lore.
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  5. #65
    Honestly, not surprised at all. The entire expansion felt like filler. It really did. From the first minute we get there, it never felt like Warcraft or anything worthwile to the Warcraft universe. It was just a trip like WoD, as others have mentioned.

    Nobody can convince me that Shadowlands is not filler-expansion-level. Blizzard tried hard to make this expansion SO IMPACTFUL and tie the knots or whatever, but they failed with almost everything in that regard.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.
    It's called evolution of a story? Not many stories that are 20 years old will have been planned out detail by detail and character by character since the bloody start.

    It's their lore and this is how they're deciding to close a huge chapter of it.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's called evolution of a story? Not many stories that are 20 years old will have been planned out detail by detail and character by character since the bloody start.

    It's their lore and this is how they're deciding to close a huge chapter of it.
    The point is you can't duct tape another clue to an existing finished story and then proclaim your closing the chapter.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The point is you can't duct tape another clue to an existing finished story and then proclaim your closing the chapter.
    I firmly believe that the person currently in charge of the story hates the fact that they have to work with a story somebody else made, trying to wrap it up as quickly as possible in order to start "their own thing". This is how I interpret their "closing of the final chapter of this Warcraft saga".

    Zovaal is the personification of Danuser, who wants to remake the reality of Warcraft in order to tell the story that he envisioned. The established Warcraft universe is an obstacle to him and he is in the process of removing said obstacle.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 08:19 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I firmly believe that the person currently in charge of the story hates the fact that they have to work with a story somebody else made, trying to wrap it up as quickly as possible in order to start "their own thing". This is how I interpret their"closing of the final chapter of this Warcraft saga".

    Zovaal is the personification of Danuser, who wants to remake the reality of Warcraft in order to tell the story that he envisioned. The established Warcraft universe is an obstacle to him and he is in the process of removing said obstacle.
    This is the main point where I find the detracting argument to be very weak and to be lionizing something that wasn't there, i.e that there was ever a point where the lead writers's preferences were something else. There's parallels to WoW's story trajectory and other franchises in new writers taking the reins of old franchises and reusing old elements to start off in their own direction. While there's some of this here, there's direct continuity between past and present writing foibles and between the old writers and the new. Danuser didn't take a respectable property and swap the ethos, he was hired on in an existing ethos that already liked the same things that now continue to pop up - hokey moralizing, remaking the end of RoC repeatedly and gradual homogenization in content, and refusing criticism ("no negativity in the dojo") in method.

    The exact same route in introducing a hitherto unknown generic humanoid baddie from a progenitor race behind a more popular villain and turning every faction into misunderstood heroes while centering the story around a handful of heroes while ditching all politics and nuance was done in Starcraft II by Metzen. There is a reason Sylvanas' character route is called Kerrigan-ing. The current writing staff isn't hired because they were a break apart from those that came before, it's because they and the preferences of those who came before aligned. Both come from the same Californian mileau, just some ten years apart. The fact that it's all but confirmed that the next expansion will pivot back to Azeroth and that the entire current story hinges on obsessing over the characterization of a lead character from about 3 missions of WC3 that no one else but Danuser and some twitterati give a shit about, that being Ranger-General Sylvanas points to the same direction.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-11-28 at 08:25 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #70
    I didnt know I would dislike the un-connected zones as mutch as I did. The game allready feels like a lobby-game, and now im also in pocket-dimensions.
    Our beloved main-story characters just sit around and does nothing, and the big finales leaves me hanging for so long I loose interest.

    I was excited to see some new spells after the big Legion-purge, but I cant think of a single class where there is more than one fun covenant-ability. The rest is just BiS and doesnt add anything fun to my gameplay. I am however happy about the venthyr teleport and the nightfae shapeshift

    It just feels like a big epic setting, but waaay too little stuff happening gameplaywize. And I havent really enjoyed the dungeons since M+ became a thing; they are ment to be rushed now.

    But I always got hope for the new expansions lol, at least they are fun for a month or two even if they are shitty
    If they pushed out more faster I wouldnt dislike Shadowlands that mutch I think, so the whole pandemic is also to blame I guess

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is the main point where I find the detracting argument to be very weak and to be lionizing something that wasn't there, i.e that there was ever a point where the lead writers's preferences were something else. There's parallels to WoW's story trajectory and other franchises in new writers taking the reins of old franchises and reusing old elements to start off in their own direction. While there's some of this here, there's direct continuity between past and present writing foibles and between the old writers and the new. Danuser didn't take a respectable property and swap the ethos, he was hired on in an existing ethos that already liked the same things that now continue to pop up - hokey moralizing, remaking the end of RoC repeatedly and gradual homogenization in content, and refusing criticism ("no negativity in the dojo") in method.

    The exact same route in introducing a hitherto unknown generic humanoid baddie from a progenitor race behind a more popular villain and turning every faction into misunderstood heroes while centering the story around a handful of heroes while ditching all politics and nuance was done in Starcraft II by Metzen. There is a reason Sylvanas' character route is called Kerrigan-ing. The current writing staff isn't hired because they were a break apart from those that came before, it's because they and the preferences of those who came before aligned. Both come from the same Californian mileau, just some ten years apart.
    I can see where you're coming from with this; Metzen indeed did it with Kerrigan and that is exactly why Sylvanas is dubbed as being at risk of getting Kerriganed. Kerrigan was, at the time, a unique one-off within Blizzard's portfolio. Metzen went with it and it got the reception that it did. That was how he envisioned the resolution of that story. What is happening with WoW is that everyone is expected to move on after the fact and there's simply no logical way to do that, while the creator behind it is busy convincing us that it is totally logical and that there'll be more to come and that what is to come will be a "new saga".

    The lack of ability to stick to what is known, when it is all already laid out before you, while only needing to slowly build around it, is astounding. Metzen corrected and retconned a lot of things and had his blunders(ie the entire Garrosh story, WoD, timetravel), but in the end it was a universe he built from scratch and continously reshaped in order to be more coherent and logical in character. Danuser on the other hand inherited something that he could at least see the shape and form of, something that wasn't hard to sensefully build upon after it had been reshaped and somewhat polished by the previous narrative leads.

    I also believe that the current establishment within the gaming industry is in a much worse position when it comes to creative freedom and that's the one factor that the current writers have going against them.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 08:51 PM.

  12. #72
    You may have not enjoyed the expansion, but i think it's clear that out trip was very, very far from "irrelevant".

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I can see where you're coming from with this, but I'm not trying to say that Metzen didn't do this before; he indeed did it with Kerrigan and that is why Sylvanas is dubbed as being at risk of getting Kerriganed. I am not saying that this wasn't done before when it comes to Kerrigan specifically; Kerrigan was, at the time, a unique one-off within Blizzard's portfolio. Metzen went with it and it got the reception that it did. That was how he envisioned the resolution of that story. What is happening with WoW is that everyone is expected to move on after the fact and there's simply no logical way to do that, while the creator behind it is busy convincing us that it is totally logical and that there'll be more to come.
    What I'm getting at is that within Blizzard proper, this wasn't perceived to be a one-off fuck up. The story route of Starcraft II which turned the political struggle between various morally iffy factions in Starcraft I into a bunch of more or less homogenized races fighting a turbo Satan and ending all other forms of conflict wasn't something to shy away from. The people hired are people who liked that stuff and who've gone on to make more of it. Starcraft I wasn't envisioned with Amon in mind, anymore than the Arthas soul split in Wrath was envisioned to allude to the Jailer, but they were added in post-factum.

    Kerrigan was no more planned for a redemptive story from Day 1 than was Sylvanas meant to first turn into the Devil and then into a damsel in distress. In fact, the part where minor bits in the first game, with Kerrigan and Jim being turned into some love story for the ages retroactively and Sylvanas' time as ranger-General being not the framing device for her story as Queen of the Forsaken but as the 'real' crux of their character mirror each other entirely as well. Danuser isn't taking some drastic step out of the Blizzard creative wheelhouse. He's reproducing the parts he liked with the characters he liked and it just so happens that it's shit, much like it was shit every other time past the first two.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-11-28 at 08:50 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What I'm getting at is that within Blizzard proper, this wasn't perceived to be a one-off fuck up. The story route of Starcraft II which turned the political struggle between various morally iffy factions in Starcraft I into a bunch of more or less homogenized races fighting a turbo Satan and ending all other forms of conflict wasn't something to shy away from. The people hired are people who liked that stuff and who've gone on to make more of it. Starcraft I wasn't envisioned with Amon in mind, anymore than the Arthas soul split in Wrath was envisioned to allude to the Jailer, but they were added in post-factum.

    Kerrigan was no more planned for a redemptive story from Day 1 than was Sylvanas meant to first turn into the Devil and then into a damsel in distress. In fact, the part where minor bits in the first game, with Kerrigan and Jim being turned into some love story for the ages retroactively and Sylvanas' time as ranger-General being not the framing device for her story as Queen of the Forsaken but as the 'real' crux of their character mirror each other entirely as well. Danuser isn't taking some drastic step out of the Blizzard creative wheelhouse. He's reproducing the parts he liked with the characters he liked and it just so happens that it's shit, much like it was shit every other time past the first two.
    Well, that part of the Kerrigan and Jim relationship is something I never thought of drawing a parallel with. Makes it all look even worse.

    I don't know where it is all going to go, but I think he's done worse than the ones before him because he had the Chronicles ready, which was at the time supposed to be the all-encompassing lore compendium that takes all retcons into account, solidifies the lore and gives some more space for others to work with. He instead opted to reinvent the wheel, adding additional layers of unnecessary complexity; I still remember when he said that the Chronicles are the history of Warcraft from the perspective of the titans, instead of simply using Chronicles to further build upon the established universe. One could argue that he did exactly that in his own way and that's alright. I think that the majority of fans were happy to have a finalized version of everything that came before and it was made insignificant the first time he had a chance to make it so.

    If Warcraft was a house and someone new didn't do their job right when it comes to the doors or the windows, I could get over it due to the fact that - as you said - Warcraft has never been a polished ethos to begin with. And Metzen had a lot of doors and windows falling off the house. However, when someone chooses to dig up the foundation of said house after tearing it down with a wrecking ball, then reveals that he wants to build a fountain in its place because the saga of the house came to an end, that is when I think the problems have gone beyond what we've seen before.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 09:19 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Well, that part of the Kerrigan and Jim relationship is something I never thought of drawing a parallel with. Makes it all look even worse.

    I don't know where it is all going to go, but I think he's done worse than the ones before him because he had the Chronicles ready, which was at the time supposed to be the all-encompassing lore compendium that takes all retcons into account, solidifies the lore and gives some more space for others to work with, what with the cosmic powers chart and more. He instead opted to reinvent the wheel, adding layer upon layer of unnecessary complexity, instead of breaking down the known; I still remember when he said that the Chronicles are the history of Warcraft from the perspective of the titans, instead of simply using Chronicles to further build upon the established universe. I think that the majority of fans were happy to have a finalized version of everything that came before and it was made insignificant the first time he had a chance to make it so.
    Oh, far be it from me saying that Danuser was left a bag of shit and he's heroically trying to fix it. The only case where that remotely applies is the BFA to SL transition, where has to carry elephants in the room like Sylvanas and Tyrande's storylines which are uniformly the worst parts of the new expansion and stem directly from what a mess Afrasiabi made of things when he decided to one-up Kosak with Mists 2.0. He's got his own share of massive fuckups, from the execution of some retcons - the Dreadlord one and the Jailer, but even minor things like changing Odyn and the creation of the val'kyr despite the story there already being the closest we ever had to Shadowlands foreshadowing, to the concept of others - the Kel'thuzad retcon is some of the most unnecessary nonsense put together. What I'm disputing and what I disagree with a lot of people on is that he's someone outside the bounds of the usual Blizzard creative process. Rather, the problem is that he's more of the same, but without either the gameplay backing to hold it up or a large enough backlog of material to make it work. The brain drain of devs caused by this scandal and just over the years has and will continue to do lasting damage.

    Chronicle as a whole is worth discussing the merit of, but sticking to a framework, no matter how flawed is how you maintain the plausibility of the setting and Danuser pivoting away from it to make his own framework, that he'll likely stick to only to be binned by the next guy is how we're in here in the first place.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Chronicle as a whole is worth discussing the merit of, but sticking to a framework, no matter how flawed is how you maintain the plausibility of the setting and Danuser pivoting away from it to make his own framework, that he'll likely stick to only to be binned by the next guy is how we're in here in the first place.
    This is what needs changing, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann
    What I'm disputing and what I disagree with a lot of people on is that he's someone outside the bounds of the usual Blizzard creative process. Rather, the problem is that he's more of the same, but without either the gameplay backing to hold it up or a large enough backlog of material to make it work. The brain drain of devs caused by this scandal and just over the years has and will continue to do lasting damage.
    Well, I can see how some posts - mine included - can make it look like that he is this new narrative phenomenon at Blizzard and it certainly needs to be pointed out that he isn't. I simply think that he was in much better position than his predecesors to tell a story that didn't need retcons to move forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann
    The only case where that remotely applies is the BFA to SL transition, where has to carry elephants in the room like Sylvanas and Tyrande's storylines which are uniformly the worst parts of the new expansion and stem directly from what a mess Afrasiabi made of things when he decided to one-up Kosak with Mists 2.0.
    That storyline could've been sensefully resolved only if one or the other died at the hands of the adversary, though getting to that point was entirely unnecessary to begin with. They really threw him a hot potato with that one.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-11-28 at 09:31 PM.

  17. #77
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    This entire expansion is peak Danuser. The man is an imbecile that surrounds himself with other imbeciles (that check the women/poc/alphabet boxes) that just allow him to pick story elements at random and forget about them a half a patch later. Everyone involved with his team should be fired and never allowed to work in the industry again.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I honestly had super high hopes for this expansion. From inevitably seeing Arthas again (hah!), to learning the source of Necromancy, getting to see some MAJOR Lore heavy-hitters (like Lothar or Doomhammer), and just finally getting a chance to see what the "afterlife" was all about in Warcraft.

    Now don't get me wrong; I think the zones themselves -- Maw and Korthia notwithstanding -- have been absolutely beautiful.

    But I also think, in an effort to try to "be smarter than we are", they tried introducing all these elements like the Brokers, and other clearly-living races and beings, hand-waving things away as "oh don't worry about all that, YOUR perspective is just too simple-minded to understand that even in the afterlife, there are all these other beings and whatnot".

    And for me, it just doesn't work.

    These zones are all very cool, but they literally feel more like "new elemental planes" than anything even remotely resembling an "afterlife". And the story and Lore have almost nothing to show for all our time here.

    Like... are you seriously gonna sit there and tell me, NOBODY'S views on the afterlife -- or even life itself -- have changed since setting foot in the Shadowlands? Well of course not, because Blizzard just hand-waves THAT away, too, saying "oh, everybody gets their own afterlife of their dreams, at least until recently". Which is incongruent with their own story being told. Are we to believe that Draka was deemed more worthy a warrior than the likes of Lothar or Doomhammer?

    Also, DA FUQ happens when I "kill" something in the Shadowlands? Since we and our allies are still living, does that mean we essentially all have "an extra life"?

    Too much hand-waving things away, too much "don't think about it too much". And what's crazy to me, is that nobody even seems all that interested in the Shadowlands themselves, or what it might mean to them. I know getting Blizzard to create Class-based quests is like pulling fucking teeth, but how interesting would it be, to have EACH of the Class Halls asking questions, or having us further investigate, certain aspects of the afterlife?

    For example, perhaps a Shaman losing a bit of patience, and hoping to actually meet their ancestors, rather than simply "believe they're watching over them". Maybe a Paladin whose faith is shattered when they here the afterlife is nothing like what was taught to them. Or a Mage who begins speculating that "immortality" may not be so infeasible after all, potentially leading them down a dark path.

    And I still think Death Knights should've been particularly tied to this expansion, and actually learn where the flying fuck Necromancy actually originates from, how it works, who designed it and for what purpose, and perhaps give a greater purpose to the Ebon Blade now than just "make sure the Lich King doesn't return".

    Like I said, not just trashing the expansion or anything, but it feels like a massively wasted opportunity.
    answering the title. no. not in the slightest.

    i expceted most horrible shit from SL story since day1. i was not disapointed.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    That storyline could've been sensefully resolved only if one or the other died at the hands of the adversary, though getting to that point was entirely unnecessary to begin with. They really threw him a hot potato with that one.
    I mean, you said it yourself. There would have been a very easy solution to this story. It's only a hot potato to begin with because Danuser really likes Sylvanas and would sooner bend the entire multiverse than see her suffer through the consequences of her actions under Afrasiabi's story direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyiana View Post
    i'm just so confused as to how people have thought that wow was ever a feudalism-based fantasy. sure, there are aspects of that type of setting, but warcraft has never been rooted in feudalism kingdoms and warfare, it's literally had world-ripping portals and demons from the get go, like isn't wc1's plot still about the dark portal? burning legion and other dimensions have always existed, lol. the kingdoms and warfare have been a secondary aspect that exist within literal endless army of demons.
    While Warcraft was fantasy from the start, it doesn't mean the fantastical elements always occupied the same amount of space as they do now. You can see the series gradually move away from it's medieval fantasy roots with increasingly larger steps. But Allen Adham's original vision for the series was supposed to be historical battle simulators set in different time periods (like Total War).
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2021-11-28 at 10:20 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilyiana View Post
    i'm just so confused as to how people have thought that wow was ever a feudalism-based fantasy. sure, there are aspects of that type of setting, but warcraft has never been rooted in feudalism kingdoms and warfare, it's literally had world-ripping portals and demons from the get go, like isn't wc1's plot still about the dark portal? burning legion and other dimensions have always existed, lol. the kingdoms and warfare have been a secondary aspect that exist within literal endless army of demons.
    Keyword "based" which is why there are aspects of it. I'd call Game of Thrones Medieval-based setting. I wouldn't call it a dragon based setting because there are dragons. Though I kinda get your point. I wouldn't call WoW Feudalism-based but it's simplistic.

    I think their point was to keep it grounded. Now we are timetraveling, going into space and going into the afterlife. It has ceased being Warcraft to me.

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