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  1. #341
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Deep enough to have served as a moderator, previously, over on the Hydaelyn Roleplayers site. As such, I've seen quite a lot of troubling things over the years.

    I also help moderate a Discord server created for those wishing to discuss the lore in a civil fashion - which came to exist, precisely, because anyone who even dared to discuss certain characters or factions in a positive light would receive organised death threats, stalking and doxxing amongst other nasty things.

    Beyond that, I also post almost daily over on the official forum. I don't say this to brag, but rather to provide context. People can take it with a pinch of salt if they so wish, but I've been embedded in the community for quite some time and likely see it very differently to those who are newer to the game and are desperate to see it as bright, shiny and so much better than X, Y or Z.

    I don't hate the game, either - and when I moved from Crystal to Chaos (mostly to get a house and to indulge in better ping) the community, I found, became much more tolerable. So take that as you will.
    I asked because RP communities are extremely toxic in every fandom. At least if you go deeper into some of the more serious RP, as well as ERP circles. It's people who take the world, its lore, and their characters VERY seriously and will often take personal offense if someone doesn't like their personal interpretation. It also just attracts very certain kinds of people.

    This isn't something unique to FFXIV. If you're in an RP community, especially deep in it, you stare into the depths of worst depravities. You will see grooming, blackmail, doxxing, stalking, etc. I remain on the fringes of any RP community I join because of it. The WoW RP community was one of the absolute worst RP communities I've ever seen and is why I stay on the fringes of others. Maybe I don't know the worst of it in FFXIV because I haven't taken the deep dive, but relationship drama was an every day thing in WoW. Finding out that some 40 year old dude was specifically targetting 15 year old night elf RPers was every other week. And so on.

    Most people who join the game will never deep dive into the RP community. And it's true what I've said, tons of people relay their overwhelmingly positive experiences in the community as new players. Anyone who wants to RP, be careful. And I'm certainly not going to point to the RP community as representative of the community as a whole. Especially because to find some of the more depraved stuff, you have to go pretty deep into the ERP circles.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, and so what ? Though, you are not insulting them, you are still an horrendous asshole per your own word.
    That is an insult. That's what you don't get.

    insult: speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.

    There is nothing in there about lying or using bad words. The truth is absolutely disrespectful and scornful and abusive if presented in the wrong context or the wrong way. Walking up to children on the street and saying "Your parents are going to die" is insulting, because it is disrespectful, scornful, and abusive. The fact that it is true doesn't matter.

    The type of sociopathic disregard for other human beings that you are displaying here is exactly why we all know that you deserved whatever you got for insulting people in game.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I asked because RP communities are extremely toxic in every fandom. At least if you go deeper into some of the more serious RP, as well as ERP circles. It's people who take the world, its lore, and their characters VERY seriously and will often take personal offense if someone doesn't like their personal interpretation. It also just attracts very certain kinds of people.

    This isn't something unique to FFXIV. If you're in an RP community, especially deep in it, you stare into the depths of worst depravities. You will see grooming, blackmail, doxxing, stalking, etc. I remain on the fringes of any RP community I join because of it. The WoW RP community was one of the absolute worst RP communities I've ever seen and is why I stay on the fringes of others. Maybe I don't know the worst of it in FFXIV because I haven't taken the deep dive, but relationship drama was an every day thing in WoW. Finding out that some 40 year old dude was specifically targetting 15 year old night elf RPers was every other week. And so on.

    Most people who join the game will never deep dive into the RP community. And it's true what I've said, tons of people relay their overwhelmingly positive experiences in the community as new players. Anyone who wants to RP, be careful. And I'm certainly not going to point to the RP community as representative of the community as a whole. Especially because to find some of the more depraved stuff, you have to go pretty deep into the ERP circles.
    Honestly, FFXIV's RP community seems very strange to me. I enjoy RPing in game generally, but the vast majority of RP I see in this game is nightlife stuff, which feels out of place.
    Reminds me a lot of Second Life in fact. And that's including the more disturbing aspects of that game's community

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, and so what ? Though, you are not insulting them, you are still an horrendous asshole per your own word.
    But you are. Like he said, being an asshole and mean is all about tone. If someone in a dungeon is performing terribly there are multiple ways to tell them the truth.
    Outright calling them bad at the game is being an asshole. Telling them in a considerate way that they are underperforming and offering advice as a more experienced player is a far better way to put it. Just like you would in real life (I hope... otherwise you must be fun at parties). This is not lying to someone. It is just being more considerate.
    With that being said, toxicity of course exists and it does come from both sides. Most of the time, when I have pointed things out to people as a more experienced player, it has gone very well. Many have even added me after to talk and try to figure things out with tips etc. There have been times however where I have told a healer that I do not need to be spam healed at 100% HP and they can dps instead and they have not replied in a nice way or simply said "I dont care". Yes the content gets cleared anyway so it does not bother me as this does not happen in serious endgame content but I consider these people just as toxic.
    And it is true that to an extent, the draconian measures protect them. However, these measures also clearly state that you can choose who you want to play with and who you want to remove from a party due to entirely personal reasons and I have NEVER been GM jailed or received an infraction for silently vote kicking a person I did not vibe with from a party. Or after a civil discussion. If I tell them "I do not need to be healed when I m at 100% HP and it is better to cast a holy" and they reply "I dont care" and I proceed to vote kick them without insulting them there is exactly 0.00% chance of me getting banned and this is a fact.
    If I however tell them "You suck at playing a healer, l2p before queuing for a dungeon" there is a small chance at a warning cause I was being an asshat.
    Do you seriously see no difference between these approaches?

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    That is an insult. That's what you don't get.

    insult: speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.

    There is nothing in there about lying or using bad words. The truth is absolutely disrespectful and scornful and abusive if presented in the wrong context or the wrong way. Walking up to children on the street and saying "Your parents are going to die" is insulting, because it is disrespectful, scornful, and abusive. The fact that it is true doesn't matter.

    The type of sociopathic disregard for other human beings that you are displaying here is exactly why we all know that you deserved whatever you got for insulting people in game.
    Grow a thick skin, maybe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    But you are. Like he said, being an asshole and mean is all about tone. If someone in a dungeon is performing terribly there are multiple ways to tell them the truth.
    Outright calling them bad at the game is being an asshole. Telling them in a considerate way that they are underperforming and offering advice as a more experienced player is a far better way to put it. Just like you would in real life (I hope... otherwise you must be fun at parties). This is not lying to someone. It is just being more considerate.
    With that being said, toxicity of course exists and it does come from both sides. Most of the time, when I have pointed things out to people as a more experienced player, it has gone very well. Many have even added me after to talk and try to figure things out with tips etc. There have been times however where I have told a healer that I do not need to be spam healed at 100% HP and they can dps instead and they have not replied in a nice way or simply said "I dont care". Yes the content gets cleared anyway so it does not bother me as this does not happen in serious endgame content but I consider these people just as toxic.
    And it is true that to an extent, the draconian measures protect them. However, these measures also clearly state that you can choose who you want to play with and who you want to remove from a party due to entirely personal reasons and I have NEVER been GM jailed or received an infraction for silently vote kicking a person I did not vibe with from a party. Or after a civil discussion. If I tell them "I do not need to be healed when I m at 100% HP and it is better to cast a holy" and they reply "I dont care" and I proceed to vote kick them without insulting them there is exactly 0.00% chance of me getting banned and this is a fact.
    If I however tell them "You suck at playing a healer, l2p before queuing for a dungeon" there is a small chance at a warning cause I was being an asshat.
    Do you seriously see no difference between these approaches?
    Never said I care about being an ass. The facts still stay true. You can handle them like an adult or make a tantrum like a kid.

  6. #346
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Never said I care about being an ass. The facts still stay true. You can handle them like an adult or make a tantrum like a kid.
    Literally told you how to handle the situation within SE's rules, and you're saying others are throwing a tantrum. Are you really that determined to tell anyone you feel like that their damage sucks and they're holding the group back?

    It's a matter of civility, and it doesn't take any extra work to be civil unless not phrasing the way you talk to others in a insulting manner causes you physical pain.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zython View Post
    Just came here to remind people that the right has no moral conscious. If they ever try to morally scold you, it's not because they think what you're doing is wrong. Is because it's effective, and want to discourage you from doing it.

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Grow a thick skin, maybe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Never said I care about being an ass. The facts still stay true. You can handle them like an adult or make a tantrum like a kid.
    The game has kids in it, and your attitude is what is actually childish. It is not mature to be petulant. What you are displaying is what an angsty 13 year old boy thinks maturity is.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Honest question: Do you people legitimately think telling someone in a randomly matched group that their dps sucks solves anything? Like they're going to suddenly play better or what?
    Does this accomplishes anything besides insulting someone and stroking your own ego? Just from the logic perspective.
    I got banned because I suggested someone should read a guide. Apparently that’s toxic. And before you say anything about context the context is exactly this:

    Their damage is low, I ask are you new, they say no, literally said “ah, maybe you should read a guide and see how to improve”. I was banned for harassment. Wtf….

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I got banned because I suggested someone should read a guide. Apparently that’s toxic. And before you say anything about context the context is exactly this:

    Their damage is low, I ask are you new, they say no, literally said “ah, maybe you should read a guide and see how to improve”. I was banned for harassment. Wtf….
    You don't get banned for 1 strike like that. This is obviously not the first strike unless you're lying about your ban.

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Grow a thick skin, maybe.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Never said I care about being an ass. The facts still stay true. You can handle them like an adult or make a tantrum like a kid.
    The point is not whether you care about being an ass or not. Its about whether you were an ass in that situation and whether you potentially deserved the warning/ban you got.
    And from the borderline sociopathic stance you are exposing here you probably did.
    Pointing out that you re being an asshole is not throwing a tantrum like a kid. Nor is "handling" insults as if they re not insults better adult behavior.

    If anything, adults actually tend to be more considerate than kids which is why bullying and ostracizing are behaviors more often observed in schools and between people in their early teens/ elementary school years. Not that they are absent in adulthood of course but not as common because people become more considerate about people's feelings.
    And before you cherry pick and start making assumptions about whether I get my fee fees hurt by randoms in video games, I personally do not. But also if someone insults me, the first thing that comes to mind is to ignore them not to try and compromise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I got banned because I suggested someone should read a guide. Apparently that’s toxic. And before you say anything about context the context is exactly this:

    Their damage is low, I ask are you new, they say no, literally said “ah, maybe you should read a guide and see how to improve”. I was banned for harassment. Wtf….
    You literally do not get banned for something like that. You are either exaggerating or not providing important information.
    If you pointed out that their damage is low because you saw it in ACT then you have the answer as to why you were banned and it had nothing to do with what you said.
    Whether their stance on ACT is a weird one or not is up for debate of course but it is what it is. I personally use it 100% of the time but I never tell people I am using it for obvious reasons. If I see someone that sucks then I try to point out something else because usually dmg will not be the only thing they suck at and then we go from there.
    Example: a monk who's dmg sucks is more than likely not doing positionals. This is something you can see without ACT. Same as how long it takes someone to press a gcd.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    I still can't believe how the game is 8 years old and its still getting snubbed for the music category.
    Or the random letter generator they seem to use for npc names lol.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    I asked because RP communities are extremely toxic in every fandom. At least if you go deeper into some of the more serious RP, as well as ERP circles. It's people who take the world, its lore, and their characters VERY seriously and will often take personal offense if someone doesn't like their personal interpretation. It also just attracts very certain kinds of people.

    This isn't something unique to FFXIV. If you're in an RP community, especially deep in it, you stare into the depths of worst depravities. You will see grooming, blackmail, doxxing, stalking, etc. I remain on the fringes of any RP community I join because of it. The WoW RP community was one of the absolute worst RP communities I've ever seen and is why I stay on the fringes of others. Maybe I don't know the worst of it in FFXIV because I haven't taken the deep dive, but relationship drama was an every day thing in WoW. Finding out that some 40 year old dude was specifically targetting 15 year old night elf RPers was every other week. And so on.

    Most people who join the game will never deep dive into the RP community. And it's true what I've said, tons of people relay their overwhelmingly positive experiences in the community as new players. Anyone who wants to RP, be careful. And I'm certainly not going to point to the RP community as representative of the community as a whole. Especially because to find some of the more depraved stuff, you have to go pretty deep into the ERP circles.
    I don't entirely disagree, though I role-played in WoW for years with minimal issues. The occasional bad apple was encountered, certainly, but never to the same degree as the seething hatred some people spout in FFXIV over issues that do not even need to be issues in the first place. Maybe it's the lack of a proper region lock at play - I honestly think European role-players are generally more grounded and mature than American role-players, with less focus and obsession with ERP as well. Exceptions do exist, of course, but it's the only explanation I can think of because even politely declining ERP was considered to be a horrific personal attack more often than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    Honestly, FFXIV's RP community seems very strange to me. I enjoy RPing in game generally, but the vast majority of RP I see in this game is nightlife stuff, which feels out of place.
    Reminds me a lot of Second Life in fact. And that's including the more disturbing aspects of that game's community
    That's a good summary. I stepped away from the RP community about a year or so back. I wanted to go out and explore the game world and portray an adventurer - not sit around in taverns or nightclubs each and every single day. I struggle to consider a lot of what is passed off as RP as actual RP, honestly.

    To say nothing of the creepy messages I received about my character and what people wanted him to do to them.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    I don't entirely disagree, though I role-played in WoW for years with minimal issues. The occasional bad apple was encountered, certainly, but never to the same degree as the seething hatred some people spout in FFXIV over issues that do not even need to be issues in the first place. Maybe it's the lack of a proper region lock at play - I honestly think European role-players are generally more grounded and mature than American role-players, with less focus and obsession with ERP as well. Exceptions do exist, of course, but it's the only explanation I can think of because even politely declining ERP was considered to be a horrific personal attack more often than not.



    That's a good summary. I stepped away from the RP community about a year or so back. I wanted to go out and explore the game world and portray an adventurer - not sit around in taverns or nightclubs each and every single day. I struggle to consider a lot of what is passed off as RP as actual RP, honestly.

    To say nothing of the creepy messages I received about my character and what people wanted him to do to them.
    Not to excuse the game but I find it quite logical that a game with a deeper narrative that is more character driven attracts the type of people that become so invested in the lore that they spew so much hatred when their favorite characters are "insulted". Same goes for the weird creepers in a game with a lot of japanese culture elements and cat girls

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Grow a thick skin, maybe.
    Or, you can not be an asshole.

    Never said I care about being an ass. The facts still stay true. You can handle them like an adult or make a tantrum like a kid.
    Or you can grow up and act like an adult instead of an immature asshole and treat people with respect.

    Expecting others to act more mature than you so you can act like an asshole is a pretty interesting take.

    There's no surprise why you get in trouble in FFXIV if this is how you act.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Weird how I've helped dozens of people who weren't performing very well and never had a problem. I wonder if there is something different about our approaches...
    I'm sure it's a factor but your approach won't be the only factor. Some people just don't want criticism even when it's constructive.
    Some people are happy to sit in their bubble where finishing solo duties and dungeons is a real metric for success.
    There is too large a difference in expectations here, even if square want tanks to big pull and healers to dps, some players simply don't care and won't ever be convinced to care.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2021-12-01 at 04:06 PM.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    I'm sure it's a factor but your approach won't be the only factor. Some people just don't want criticism even when it's constructive.
    I never said everyone responded positively. I never had a problem as far as getting a strike or getting banned or something.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Deep enough to have served as a moderator, previously, over on the Hydaelyn Roleplayers site. As such, I've seen quite a lot of troubling things over the years.

    I also help moderate a Discord server created for those wishing to discuss the lore in a civil fashion - which came to exist, precisely, because anyone who even dared to discuss certain characters or factions in a positive light would receive organised death threats, stalking and doxxing amongst other nasty things.

    Beyond that, I also post almost daily over on the official forum. I don't say this to brag, but rather to provide context. People can take it with a pinch of salt if they so wish, but I've been embedded in the community for quite some time and likely see it very differently to those who are newer to the game and are desperate to see it as bright, shiny and so much better than X, Y or Z.

    I don't hate the game, either - and when I moved from Crystal to Chaos (mostly to get a house and to indulge in better ping) the community, I found, became much more tolerable. So take that as you will.
    Honest question because I think you are looking at this the wrong way.

    Where have these people been harrassed or do harrass like that?
    On the official forum and they weren't banned? Ingame and they weren't banned? I doubt it.
    If it happened in the game, then what is true, GMs banning people for their behavior or GMs not doing anything?

    I can't tell truely because I never came into contact with any GMs. So whatever I did was right I guess, or do they simply do nothing even though I behave like a monkey? But what would you say in that regard? I doubt FFXIV-GMs somehow look for parsers over people doing deaththreats and all that stuff.

    So it was probably twitter/reddit?
    If that. then doesn't that just mean that the twitter community is shit? Because that's the case everywhere on twitter, no matter the game or even the topic, so I wouldn't be suprised?
    When I look at the community, I look at what happens ingame.
    I'm not connecting the mmo-c-community directly to the general WoW community (or any other game), it wouldn't be fair.

    I wouldn't connect the twitter/reddit community to any game either.
    Last edited by KrayZee33; 2021-12-01 at 04:21 PM.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I never said everyone responded positively. I never had a problem as far as getting a strike or getting banned or something.
    Sure, anyone claiming they were banned for trying to help people is flat out lying.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    Sure, anyone claiming they were banned for trying to help people is flat out lying.
    Mostly, yes

  20. #360
    Completely. Even if someone reacts to it badly you aren't going to be banned for trying to help. If you phrase it poorly and come off as rude or bring up ACT that's another matter.

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