Is there a such thing as a bad spec anymore?

[darklogrus]

How much of the specs being close is because of the Covenant system and not because of the spec itself.

[Grimbold21]

Boomkins aren't even the best spec in the game.. They only look like that because people will focus on the pulls they had their CDs and ignore that they do basically nothing the times they don't have CDs up.
If you want a class to be upset at for doing super well, get upset at WW

Hasn't that been the name of the game for most classes/specs? You shine when you blast everything, followed by lukewarm dps.

At least that was my experience in early SL with my enhancement shaman, which had decent burst and nice AoE. That got old fast for me, and later tried the Flame shock build, and even though I lost the burst, it was still fun to manually spread and keep 3 or 4 FS up. My sustained dps was quite alright for me.

[T-34]

Most of the specs aren't really that fun though. World of warcraft has the problem of no build freedom sure there are small choices with each speck but it's not really fun.

With greater build freedom also comes the greater "freedom" to put together a very bad combination.

[Unholyground]

With greater build freedom also comes the greater "freedom" to put together a very bad combination.

That is not an excuse for not having more freedom.

[Kalisandra]

Feral druids, affliction/demo warlocks, survival hunters, arcane mages, MW Monks and every DK spec seems to be lagging behind atm.

Generally speaking if your a monk/rogue/mage/boomy you'll have a much easier time getting into groups atm. But yeah most specs seem to be performing pretty well, things defiantly seem more balanced than usual at the moment. Hell Ret Paladins are even good, I don't think I can remember a time since WotLK where that was the case.

Late Cataclysm, certainly points in MoP, and late WoD, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me. Nothing like as good as they were in Icecrown Citadel, though.

At the moment, Ret's issues is the same as it's always been since Cata - insane variance between when bursting and when not.

[Tyris Flare]

That's true of most specs now. The problem with Ret is utility. No mandatory buff, and its utility is "imaginary" - nice things that sound good on paper but don't really make a difference between success and failure.

Going back to the previous silly comment about Survival not having utility, and compare this to ret. Would you rather have Blessings, an immunity, cleanse, and some middling off heals or lust, trap, tranq, misdirect, an immunity* with a shorter CD (albeit a weird one)? Like, this isn't even comparable, especially in m+ where you always need lust and often need tranq. There is never a point where you need something that Ret provides. All the utility is just nice, but unless the damage for the spec is tuned high it doesn't matter.

(And speaking to the balance of the game, despite this fact, there are still some rets doing +25 keys, which is nice to see)

[Kalisandra]

Most of the specs aren't really that fun though. World of warcraft has the problem of no build freedom sure there are small choices with each speck but it's not really fun.

To compound that, from Legion onwards almost all DPS specs are based on the build-spend model, making them bland. Even those that aren't tend to have a similar effective playstyle because of the way their damage CDs work.

- - - Updated - - -

That's true of most specs now. The problem with Ret is utility. No mandatory buff, and its utility is "imaginary" - nice things that sound good on paper but don't really make a difference between success and failure.

Going back to the previous silly comment about Survival not having utility, and compare this to ret. Would you rather have Blessings, an immunity, cleanse, and some middling off heals or lust, trap, tranq, misdirect, an immunity* with a shorter CD (albeit a weird one)? Like, this isn't even comparable, especially in m+ where you always need lust and often need tranq. There is never a point where you need something that Ret provides. All the utility is just nice, but unless the damage for the spec is tuned high it doesn't matter.

(And speaking to the balance of the game, despite this fact, there are still some rets doing +25 keys, which is nice to see)

Survival also has an absolute threat dump, which still has use from time to time, and a real gap closer. As for Ret's off-heals, they're nice and all, but I think I'd rather have Fury's constant free self-healing most of the time.

[Tyris Flare]

Yep. And while hunters are probably the squishiest class in a lot of ways, Ret also has shit survivability outside of bubble. At least SV can disengage out, FD, and has that passive 10% leech or whatever (still not incredible, but better).

[Makabreska]

Feral druids, affliction/demo warlocks, survival hunters, arcane mages, MW Monks and every DK spec seems to be lagging behind atm.

Generally speaking if your a monk/rogue/mage/boomy you'll have a much easier time getting into groups atm. But yeah most specs seem to be performing pretty well, things defiantly seem more balanced than usual at the moment. Hell Ret Paladins are even good, I don't think I can remember a time since WotLK where that was the case.

Ferals have very strong single target DPS, Arcane is one of the top SoD specs, Affliction blasts AoE in M+, Demo Locks also have strong single target. Specs are very balanced at this point in term of overall DPS, so main difference comes from dmg profile and utility. Fire Mages were kings of Nathria due to their strong burst being on 1 min CD, which fights designe heavily favoured there. Currently Frost Mages are strong, but they suffer when there is downtime which makes them less desirable on Sylvanas for ecample, that's where new Arcane build came to shine etc.

Oh, and if they wont nerf Survival tier set in 9.2, or nerf by not much, they will be a damn kings of AoE burst.

[Dropakeg]

Yes melee hunter is a bad spec regardless of how it plays.

This is so wrong as to be laughable. Survival absolutely Slaps in m+, even if its ST isn't amazing.

[Nemah]

there must always be a bad spec.

/thunderclap

[Skylarking]

They are all doing great but good luck convincing pug leaders otherwise

[Nootz]

Ferals have very strong single target DPS, Arcane is one of the top SoD specs, Affliction blasts AoE in M+, Demo Locks also have strong single target. Specs are very balanced at this point in term of overall DPS, so main difference comes from dmg profile and utility. Fire Mages were kings of Nathria due to their strong burst being on 1 min CD, which fights designe heavily favoured there. Currently Frost Mages are strong, but they suffer when there is downtime which makes them less desirable on Sylvanas for ecample, that's where new Arcane build came to shine etc.

Oh, and if they wont nerf Survival tier set in 9.2, or nerf by not much, they will be a damn kings of AoE burst.

Did something happen with 9.1.5? I was demo for almost every encounter in SoD and it was by far the best spec to play except on a couple fights. Tons of warlocks went demo for mythic SoD.

[Makabreska]

Did something happen with 9.1.5? I was demo for almost every encounter in SoD and it was by far the best spec to play except on a couple fights. Tons of warlocks went demo for mythic SoD.

Demo was and still is superior lock spec there.

[T-34]

That is not an excuse for not having more freedom.

No, of course not, just as long as those that pick a solution that makes them worse will accept that their choice might make others not want to play with them.

Added:
Take WoW Vanilla - each class could make a very individual spec, but also an extremely bad spec. That only becomes a problem when those that insist to play a bad spec - like ret paladin - feel entitled to that other people should play with them and get mad when other people don't want to play with them.
So to sum it up: The freedom to be bad requires that those that use that freedom also take responsibility for that choice.

[Makaloff]

So what you're saying is it's a bad spec because you don't like it? Kinda irrelevant here because the OP said excluding personal preference

5% of the hunter population plays it, numbers been same since its ranged to meele rework in legion. its not about not liking it but a ranged specc turned into meele will always be bad. granted, survs can do dmg but thats about it, nobody wants to touch it, nobody wants to bring it and very few wants to play it.

[Kithelle]

5% of the hunter population plays it, numbers been same since its ranged to meele rework in legion. its not about not liking it but a ranged specc turned into meele will always be bad. granted, survs can do dmg but thats about it, nobody wants to touch it, nobody wants to bring it and very few wants to play it.

Ranged is easier than melee...lots of hunters would cry if survival was better...so the devs can't really make it better without having to deal with a river of tears, which is something they can't afford right now.

It's a good pvp spec...lots of cc and gap closers

Once again people talking like they're in the 1%...I have news for you, you probably aren't and never will be...you can act all elitist you want, that doesn't make you one.

[Devilyaki]

So what you're saying is it's a bad spec because you don't like it? Kinda irrelevant here because the OP said excluding personal preference

Hunter range class for years, legion comes and makes one of the only physical range classes melee in a sea of already melee heavy classes. Bad regardless of how I personally fell. Like taking holy priest and making it a tank.

[Caerrona]

Classes are really well balanced atm.

Wow will never be "balanced" unless they pull a FF and homogenize everything including bosses.

Wow has multiple damage types and there are very few raids that don't have a couple of each, same with dungeons.

Tanks are in an awesome spot atm.

Healer damage needs tuning.

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Hunter range class for years, legion comes and makes one of the only physical range classes melee in a sea of already melee heavy classes. Bad regardless of how I personally fell. Like taking holy priest and making it a tank.

Op was talking bad specs (numbers) not personal feelings.

Even survival has areas it can shine, same with feral.

[Makaloff]

Ranged is easier than melee...lots of hunters would cry if survival was better...so the devs can't really make it better without having to deal with a river of tears, which is something they can't afford right now.

It's a good pvp spec...lots of cc and gap closers

Once again people talking like they're in the 1%...I have news for you, you probably aren't and never will be...you can act all elitist you want, that doesn't make you one.

Or, they could you know, reverted it back to ranged again when its quite obvious nobody wants to play it? Hell surv have been over the other speccs in terms of dmg, yet it was never picked so blizzard could buff them to hell and back and people still wouldnt touch them.

Its doing pretty well as a pvp specc, no denying in that but then again, pvp is very niche (and forgotten by blizzard since ages).
Dont put words in my mouth, ive never claimed to be a top 1% raider (i have never aimed for it either). however reading trends and seeing own setups from the plenty of mythic guilds ive been in, nobody seriously played surv and if they did they switched to range so we could have more useful meele speccs instead. But then again its blizzard we talking about, making good decisions and recognised and admit when they do wrong is something that doesnt exsist in their mind.