1. #20001
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Ah yes, forgot USA were angels


    That's called realpolitik. USA, at some point, wanted this war.
    I never said they are angels. But I just heard too many of this silly bullshiit when everytime something bad is happening in the world there always someone with that "Oh, it's AGAIN USA!".

    And to be clear I'm from EU.

  2. #20002
    The cope is strong in the copeviet union. Russian state tv is boasting they have stopped a Ukrainian breakthrough into the Belgorad region of Russia.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/...e4z1rafJg&s=19

    I know alcohol poisoning is strong in Russia, but shouldn't they have enough brain cells left to realise that perhaps claiming they stopped Ukraine invading Russian land is a sign things aren't going well?

  3. #20003
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    That's not true because people keep talking about nukes but from Napalm to biological weapons they could wipe out the entire populace without having to risk this many soldiers and equipment. The US killed more people with Napalm in Japan than with the atomic bomb, I would take atomic bomb death over napalm any day of the week.
    What all this discussion about bombing Ukraine is missing is that Russia still doesn't even have air superiority over Ukraine, so it's also a matter of lacking the ability to actually do that bombing (apart from lacking tracking and equipment).

    For comparison the US helped the allies achieved air supremacy during WWII before D-day, which turned the early bombings into the massive ones causing firestorm over Dresden.

    And Ukraine have working air warnings and bomb shelters, and houses that don't easily catch fire so napalm wouldn't be as effective as over Japan.

    And using WMDs (biological weapons, chemical weapons, etc) would give other countries further reasons to intervene, I'm not confident that Russia is willing to cross that bridge.

  4. #20004
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The cope is strong in the copeviet union. Russian state tv is boasting they have stopped a Ukrainian breakthrough into the Belgorad region of Russia.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/...e4z1rafJg&s=19

    I know alcohol poisoning is strong in Russia, but shouldn't they have enough brain cells left to realise that perhaps claiming they stopped Ukraine invading Russian land is a sign things aren't going well?
    It's for internal consumption: "Poor russia is being invaded by Evil Ukraine after they only went there to do a peace mission to protect the innocent russians in the Donbass from the Evil Ukranians."

  5. #20005
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    It's for internal consumption: "Poor russia is being invaded by Evil Ukraine after they only went there to do a peace mission to protect the innocent russians in the Donbass from the Evil Ukranians."
    Fascism Rule #8: "The enemy is both weak and strong."


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  6. #20006
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    They support Russia because they hate the west changed into they support Russia because they need stuff. Interesting.
    "The hate the west" is more for a big chunk of Asia and most of Africa rather than India.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    No.

    The US didn't support the allies in the hopes that Japan would bomb them so they had a reason to enter WW2.

    Germany didn't hope that France and Britain would impose crushing reparations so that they could reform themselves under a fascist leadership structure and then try and invade the rest of Europe.

    The collective Jewish people didn't hope that the Nazis would perpetrate the holocaust so that they could seek reparations later and form Israel.

    And the US didn't pump support into Ukraine hoping that it would be just too tantalizing not to invade so that they could impose sanctions on Russia.

    These are countries acting on their own volition, and then other countries responding to those actions. Full stop.

    You seem to assume that a lot more planning exists in some 5-dimensional game of international strategy chess. It does not. The US has ping-ponged from a president against Russia to a president very pro-Russia back to a very anti-Russia president in the span of seven years. Clearly, whatever Russia was doing was not very well planned out. The EU was ill-prepared in the short term to launch sanctions against Russia. So no, this was not the culmination of decades of work by the CIA or FBI or NATO or whomever to cajole Russia, a country perfectly capable of directing itself, into shooting itself in the foot. This was not planned by anyone but Russia, and it was poorly planned at that. Simply put, Russia didn't need any help to shoot themselves in the foot.

    The world is far more chaotic, and people far less competent, than you want to think. Frankly, this is the same kind of thinking that buds conspiracy theories. That nothing can truly be random or senseless, and that some person or group of people, somewhere, must be responsible for it all, even if they aren't acting with our best interests in mind... because otherwise the world is just chaos. Sorry to say, but chaos it is. There is no international cabal writing the future of the world; no grand, overarching plots that take every possible future reality into account. Just groups reacting to external stimuli.
    USA backed the Imperial Japan in a corner economically speaking forcing them to attack the USA to break the "economic blockade". But you can try to rewrite history if you want.

    USA fanned the flame of the conflict by using warmongering speech when they saw that Russia would go to war if pushed come to shove. Russia is still the one that initiated it but USA are far from innocent in it.

  7. #20007
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    That's called realpolitik. USA, at some point, wanted this war.
    So what you're saying is that the Russians are SO stupid, they went ahead and started a war that the US was trying to stoke. And they did this knowing full well that going to war was the US intention? Or did they not realise something so "obvious" that you've managed to work it out?

    Just trying to figure out whether you are calling the Russians ignorant or stupid.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  8. #20008
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    So what you're saying is that the Russians are SO stupid, they went ahead and started a war that the US was trying to stoke. And they did this knowing full well that going to war was the US intention? Or did they not realise something so "obvious" that you've managed to work it out?

    Just trying to figure out whether you are calling the Russians ignorant or stupid.
    Yes, that is what I am saying. I mean Russians are good at manipulating population (see theirs or what happened with Trump) but US are expert at starting war or proxy war.

    They fell in the US trap.

  9. #20009
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    USA fanned the flame of the conflict by using warmongering speech when they saw that Russia would go to war if pushed come to shove. Russia is still the one that initiated it but USA are far from innocent in it.
    The USA always wants war it's kind of what we do but we didn't really care about Ukraine one way or another, as long as they kept racking up debts buying weapons we were fine with as Biden said "small incursions". The actions of Russia are the results of bad planning like taking Crimea away while good for getting land it also took away a huge chunk of the Russian voting population. All we did was play the war profiteer as we do around the world their bad planning and escalation is of their own doing. There were smarter ways of getting what they wanted without letting it get to this point.

  10. #20010
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yes, that is what I am saying. I mean Russians are good at manipulating population (see theirs or what happened with Trump) but US are expert at starting war or proxy war.

    They fell in the US trap.
    Still not clear whether you think the Russians are ignorant or stupid. Did they know the US was trying to do this, or not realise?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  11. #20011
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    USA fanned the flame of the conflict by using warmongering speech when they saw that Russia would go to war if pushed come to shove. Russia is still the one that initiated it but USA are far from innocent in it.
    What a horrible take. What possible effect could even "warmongering speech" from the US have when the US wasn't directly involved in the potential conflict?

    Nobody with any sense seriously believes that Ukraine or the US were about to attack Russia. And by your own statement, this is supposed to have happened after Russia was already at the doorstep to war. Russia didn't do all the logistical work to get to that point without intending the exact end result it got: the (continued) invasion of Ukraine.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  12. #20012
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    The USA always wants war it's kind of what we do but we didn't really care about Ukraine one way or another, as long as they kept racking up debts buying weapons we were fine with as Biden said "small incursions". The actions of Russia are the results of bad planning like taking Crimea away while good for getting land it also took away a huge chunk of the Russian voting population. All we did was play the war profiteer as we do around the world their bad planning and escalation is of their own doing. There were smarter ways of getting what they wanted without letting it get to this point.
    I am pretty sure that the US does not care about Ukraine in itself. They care about it because it could become (and it has) a pain in the ass for Russia. The US always needs a war. Would be great if for once they fought it in their own territory. And being smart or cunning is not the Russia way, it makes you look like weak. Russians likes STRONK men.

  13. #20013
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I am pretty sure that the US does not care about Ukraine in itself. They care about it because it could become (and it has) a pain in the ass for Russia. The US always needs a war. Would be great if for once they fought it in their own territory.
    The US never thought Russia would be stupid enough to go for a full blown invasion even at the last minute many prominent analyst dismissed the possibility. The consensus was for a small land grab which is what they have been forced to do.

  14. #20014
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Still not clear whether you think the Russians are ignorant or stupid. Did they know the US was trying to do this, or not realise?
    As I said, they fell in the trap laid by the US.

  15. #20015
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    So what you're saying is that the Russians are SO stupid, they went ahead and started a war that the US was trying to stoke. And they did this knowing full well that going to war was the US intention? Or did they not realise something so "obvious" that you've managed to work it out?

    Just trying to figure out whether you are calling the Russians ignorant or stupid.
    I mean, let's not be cute here. US did set a trap for Russia in Ukraine and Russians magnificently fell into it.

    No, US did not intend for this war to break out, but they did spend quite a bit bringing Ukraine over in intent to reduce Russia's influence in the region and globally. And US did know they are playing with fire there too, let's not pretend they did not think there was a chance could happen, especially after 2014.

    I already said it multiple times, various US departments and agencies are probably drowning themselves in champagne silly. Russia practically gave them the win on a silver platter and at a cheap price at home.

    And I mean substitute "Russians" for "Russian leadership" in that last sentence. I don't know if they are outright stupid, but they sure were ignorant of actual state of political, military and infrastructure affairs both in Ukraine and in Russia.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  16. #20016
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I mean, let's not be cute here. US did set a trap for Russia in Ukraine and Russians magnificently fell into it.

    No, US did not intend for this war to break out, but they did spend quite a bit bringing Ukraine over in intent to reduce Russia's influence in the region and globally. And US did know they are playing with fire there too, let's not pretend they did not think there was a chance could happen, especially after 2014.

    I already said it multiple times, various US departments and agencies are probably drowning themselves in champagne silly. Russia practically gave them the win on a silver platter and at a cheap price at home.

    And I mean substitute "Russians" for "Russian leadership" in that last sentence. I don't know if they are outright stupid, but they sure were ignorant of actual state of political, military and infrastructure affairs both in Ukraine and in Russia.
    When you make such mistakes when you are the head of a state, you are stupid I'd say.

  17. #20017
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    When you make such mistakes when you are the head of a state, you are stupid I'd say.
    I don't think that was the problem there, but mostly structural failure in various agencies and branches of government.

    Putin and key members of his inner circle were presented with a rosy picture of their prospects and they acted on it.

    If everyone and their mothers keep reporting you that you have a top tier army at your disposal that would roll over that rabble over the border in a matter of weeks if not days and take whole country hostage before West can even react, with subsequent negotiations with the West with near 100% chance of success. You'd probably too decide it is worth a shot. Especially given their success of 2014 with relatively little to no real reprecussions.

    Typical of such regimes.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  18. #20018
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I don't think that was the problem there, but mostly structural failure in various agencies and branches of government.

    Putin and key members of his inner circle were presented with a rosy picture of their prospects and they acted on it.

    If everyone and their mothers keep reporting you that you have a top tier army at your disposal that would roll over that rabble over the border in a matter of weeks if not days and take whole country hostage before West can even react, with subsequent negotiations with the West with near 100% chance of success. You'd probably too decide it is worth a shot. Especially given their success of 2014 with relatively little to no real reprecussions.

    Typical of such regimes.
    Well, you can't say no to a guy like Putin, or you better like forced work in Siberia.

  19. #20019
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Well, you can't say no to a guy like Putin, or you better like forced work in Siberia.
    This is the historical tragedy of Russia, an enchanted circle of fate they can't break out of. It was always the same thing, whether it's Czars, Empresses, Chiefs, General Secretaries or Presidents - position name changes, but it ends up being same shit all over again.

    Putin is not an exception, just the usual. Same goes for the system.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  20. #20020
    Over 9000! Lahis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The cope is strong in the copeviet union. Russian state tv is boasting they have stopped a Ukrainian breakthrough into the Belgorad region of Russia.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/...e4z1rafJg&s=19

    I know alcohol poisoning is strong in Russia, but shouldn't they have enough brain cells left to realise that perhaps claiming they stopped Ukraine invading Russian land is a sign things aren't going well?
    Their story has always been how Ukrainian Nazis will destroy all of Russia, so they can easily claim that as a victory.

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