1. #20301
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    @Kallisto Please stop this Turkish treatment of Kurds. My uncle is Kurd. My cousin whom we grew up together married a Kurdish guy and had a kid a year ago. My dean at the university was a Kurd. I had Kurdish classmates. Kurdish students, girlfriend. Kurdish teachers. Kurdish colleagues. We live here together. My brother is a teacher in Sirnak city. PKK is something else, why cant you understand that?

    Now, WHen I heard Erdogans talk, as usually he is just making politics for votes. That is no way to talk in international matters. He is a fucking scumbag and I will see the day he stands trial for high treason in Turkey then Haque for crimes against humanity.

    However, Swedens support is obvious for PKK. It is there. As a normal citizen I do not approve what Sweden does. Erdogan could have worded it differently butthe way he speaks is what gets the votes for him. And again he is a scumbag trying to milk the situation.

    Again, I am really happy that Sweden and Finland joins, but even I would ask that question as a normal turkish citizen. Would not you? Those extradition requests might be political plots or whatever, but as I said Sweden has been supporting YPG,PKK or whatever for the longest time. Please separate those Kurds and my cousin or my brother in law.

    And Turkey will absofuckinglutely say Yes for Sweden and Finland. It is just Erdo playing for domestic votes.
    I think it is a logical request to have Sweden condemn PKK at the highest level. I don't see how they can extradite anyone to Turkey as it is now though. There is absolutely no guarantee of a fair trial in Turkey and the extradited persons can easily make such a case and stall in courts till the cows come home. Ofc Sweden could move to extradite knowing that would happen which would be a fine solution internationally but possibly problematic for Sweden when it comes to local politics (have no idea how strong a pro-PKK kurdish presence there is)?
    I don't see any chance for supposed Gulenists being extradited from Sweden, Finland, the US or anywhere else. I think a chance of the YPG being condemned as a terrorist organization by the US and other NATO members is improbable. Also cannot see Turkey getting back in the F-35 program until it picks a side between NATO and Russia. What can happen is some solid committments for other investments that can boost the economy up.

  2. #20302
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    For someone who keeps claiming everything is on schedule and going accordink to plan, Putin sure is firing a lot of high-ranking generals.

    Well, not that many. Ukraine's killing the rest.

    The ministry noted that Lieutenant General Sergey Kisel, who commanded the elite 1st Guards Tank Army, was suspended for his failure to capture Kharkiv. Vice Admiral Igor Osipov, who commanded Russia's Black Sea Fleet, has also likely been suspended following the sinking of the cruiser Moskva in April, the ministry added.

    Russian Chief of the General Staff Valeriy Gerasimov likely remains in post, but it is unclear whether he retains Putin's confidence, the update said. Gerasimov was a notable absence from Russia's huge "Victory Day" parade in Moscow on May 9, to celebrate the Soviet Union's 1945 victory over Nazi Germany in World War II.

    "A culture of cover-ups and scape-goating is probably prevalent within the Russian military and security system," the update added.

    "Many officials involved in the invasion of Ukraine will likely be increasingly distracted by efforts to avoid personal culpability for Russia's operational set-backs.

    "This will likely place further strain on Russia's centralised model of command and control, as officers increasingly seek to defer key decisions to their superiors. It will be difficult for Russia to regain the initiative under these conditions."
    The UK went on to say that Putin, increasingly upset that things are not going as well as his yes-men told him they would, is now committed to micromanaging. Assuming this is true (it likely is), Putin is now directly responsible for future failures of his "soldiers" and also directly responsible for any war crimes they commit under his direct orders.

    In the meanwhile, we continue to get intercepted calls between Russians. Spoiler alert: the soldiers know how badly things are going.

    After telling his father that “we’re all on strike here,” the soldier, named only as Andrei, says everyone “is already sick of everything” and refusing to follow orders.

    “They are all rebelling,” he says. “Tell mom to get me a medical note saying I have hypertension. Maybe then I can go home. They already sent some others back.”
    The same soldier was told by his parents not to panic, because his 90 days would soon be up. Big surprise: the soldier confirmed to his parents that the 90 days was, in fact, bullshit. He was directly told he was stuck in Ukraine (unless they forged a doctor's note, as mentioned above) until Russia won the war, plus two months.

    But if you can't fake a medical issue, there are other options.

    Nikita, who is identified as a solider speaking to his mother, expresses doubt about Ukrainians surrendering.

    "This won't end anytime soon. What the hell do I need this for? At 20 years old...I'm not at all interested in Ukraine. I need to come back and resign," he states. "I had a commander...who shot himself in the leg just to get out of here. And that was in the very beginning!"

    The soldier's mother then says that someone has to "defend Russia," The Daily Beast reported, adding: "They will just kill us all, it'll be World War Four and Russia will lose!"

    The soldier goes on to say that people in his brigade are "are just disappearing on their own. Some of them vanished without a trace, some were taken prisoner, some are hiding, some are already in Russia."

    The Daily Beast reported that in another intercepted call released on Friday, Ukrainian officials claim that a wife of a Russian soldier told him to "fall off a tank" to get out of the war.

    "There's no way out," she said. "Otherwise you will be there until September...They will not swap you out, because everyone is refusing. You just don't need to shoot yourself in the leg, because who the f*** knows how that would end. Or let someone whack you on your side."
    So let's take a poll. If a Russian, so afraid to die for a worthless cause, gets a self-inflicted injury including intentional friendly fire, does that still count as a Ukrainian victory? They didn't push the soldier off the tank, but they made him fall.

    This is also the part where I am supposed to mock the Russia Stronk soldiers whimpering like babies and calling to their mothers...but let's be honest, these are people who know they're being sent to their deaths without ammo, food, or a plan. Sticking with the lack-of-plan well past your required service for a cause you don't support isn't brave, and isn't patriotic. It's just stubborn and mean-spirited. I'm not cut out for murdering innocent people, but if I were in their place, I'd be calling my parents too if I wasn't already dead (probably shot in the back by my superior officer as I sprint for the treeline). The Nazis weren't brave for defending death camps. The Confederates weren't brave for defending slavery. And the Russians who are committing war crimes (again, possibly under Putin's direct orders) aren't brave for murdering unarmed civilians lined up and shot on the road. They're devaluing human life by ethnicity.

  3. #20303
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The UK went on to say that Putin, increasingly upset that things are not going as well as his yes-men told him they would, is now committed to micromanaging. Assuming this is true (it likely is), Putin is now directly responsible for future failures of his "soldiers" and also directly responsible for any war crimes they commit under his direct orders.
    So...what you're saying is that a dictator, in a bunker, is personally meddling with a war he started and not being a tactical genius? I think I've seen that movie before. Seriously the parallels.

  4. #20304
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    So...what you're saying is that a dictator, in a bunker, is personally meddling with a war he started and not being a tactical genius? I think I've seen that movie before. Seriously the parallels.
    Yeah it's getting ridicolous at this point.

    I have a hard time comparing Hitler and Putin, the former did after all set up extermination camps and Putin is making Hitler look like a tactical genious, altho he didnt come up with the strategy that won over France.

    Putin's legacy will be absolute shit.

  5. #20305
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it is a logical request to have Sweden condemn PKK at the highest level. I don't see how they can extradite anyone to Turkey as it is now though. There is absolutely no guarantee of a fair trial in Turkey and the extradited persons can easily make such a case and stall in courts till the cows come home. Ofc Sweden could move to extradite knowing that would happen which would be a fine solution internationally but possibly problematic for Sweden when it comes to local politics (have no idea how strong a pro-PKK kurdish presence there is)?
    I don't see any chance for supposed Gulenists being extradited from Sweden, Finland, the US or anywhere else. I think a chance of the YPG being condemned as a terrorist organization by the US and other NATO members is improbable. Also cannot see Turkey getting back in the F-35 program until it picks a side between NATO and Russia. What can happen is some solid committments for other investments that can boost the economy up.
    All valid points and I completely agree.

    With the justice system that AKP fucked so hard, it is nothing but a place to officially persecute people. Anyone they want to silence they just do it. Off the prison with you. The amount of prisons built in the recent years is mind blowing. I always hated any religious group and especially
    Gulenists since childhood as I had a real close experiences with them. They are another scumbag organization who uses religion for their own end and they were really good buddies with AKP uup until the positions in the government offices filled up and money ran dry. I strongly believe that coup was designed by Erdo and his men. They were able to deceive mongoloid gulenists and all that shit happened.

    Buying s400 from russia is another idiocy of erdogan. It is retarded. The reason is valid tho. It is the refusal of America selling patriots to Turkey. So I also blame USA here. Still buying s400 then not even being able to set it up is fucking idiotic. It is another proof of erdogan just playing domestic and trying to just save the day. He doesn't and cannot make a long term policy. He is not capable of it. Waste of tax money.

    He sold everything that hardworking citizen built over the 100 years. And there is literally nothing else left to sold. Economy is going worse and worse everyday. They cannot stop it. They have recently started to pud padlocks on basic human needs goods on supermarkets, like diapers, baby food, milk etc. His days are numbered. He cannot win the next election in legal ways.

    What I want as a normal citizen is the condemnation of PKK and cease of support. I have no knowledge about Finland though. WHat could be the reason for no for Finland. And as I said, Turkey will say yes. Erdogans way of talking is just to get votes, his voter base likes bully talk. Maybe when the first voting comes, Turkey may veto for the show but the second time it will pass. Erdogan will play it as a victory and show of strength. There are elections next year. He will all kind of shittery.

  6. #20306
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    Maybe when the first voting comes, Turkey may veto for the show but the second time it will pass. Erdogan will play it as a victory and show of strength. There are elections next year. He will all kind of shittery.
    First vote already did come and yes, they did say no.

  7. #20307
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Yeah it's getting ridicolous at this point.

    I have a hard time comparing Hitler and Putin, the former did after all set up extermination camps and Putin is making Hitler look like a tactical genious, altho he didnt come up with the strategy that won over France.

    Putin's legacy will be absolute shit.
    Yeah I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the same either, but there seem to be some similarities. ('some' is an understatement )

  8. #20308
    The similarities are those you find between every militaristic authoritarian ruler and/or dictator.

    So obviously Hitler and Putin have a lot of stuff in common.
    Or Kim and Putin
    Or Kim and Hitler, etc. etc.
    Or Erdogan and Putin, actually.

    The only thing that differs most of the time is how *far* they go. Most of them use the same tactics however. It's just that some have the power to reach out geopolitically
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-20 at 08:15 AM.

  9. #20309
    Putin is not Hitler, he's like a little baby compared to that when it comes to scale, extremism and capacity. And Russian army is far from Wehrmacht - there is no ideology and there is no leadership worth a damn there. It's just a horde led by thieves who robbed themselves and their boss blind.

    Then the stakes for Russia or even Putin are far from the same as for Nazi leadership in those final days of WW2.

    Putin will disappear in a year or two and Russia will remain Russia for another 100 years, until maybe they somehow manage to break out of the same leadership curse under different titles and flags they suffer from hundreds of years.

    I personally do not hold my breath on the latter, ultimately it's how Russia ticks and the system is way too integrated and adept at temporarily changing faces when needed, like in 90s.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  10. #20310
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Putin is not Hitler, he's like a little baby compared to that when it comes to scale, extremism and capacity. And Russian army is far from Wehrmacht - there is no ideology and there is no leadership worth a damn there. It's just a horde led by thieves who robbed themselves and their boss blind.

    Then the stakes for Russia or even Putin are far from the same as for Nazi leadership in those final days of WW2.

    Putin will disappear in a year or two and Russia will remain Russia for another 100 years, until maybe they somehow manage to break out of the same leadership curse under different titles and flags they suffer from hundreds of years.

    I personally do not hold my breath on the latter, ultimately it's how Russia ticks and the system is way too integrated and adept at temporarily changing faces when needed, like in 90s.
    There is something nazi going on in background, but unlike Hitler, Putin didnt groom the young into those due to lack of time (only 3-4 years).
    Yeah the special classes in school they have in russa.
    He is using people from poor areas as soldiers and this has bitten him into ass, as those soldiers are to stupid.

    Its like recruting peasants for war in middle ages and giving them some old army armor and sending them against proffesional soldiers who do war for living.
    If they attacked like this 8 years sooner, Ukraine will have a much harder time to defend as they gave them time to prepare.
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  11. #20311
    Quote Originally Posted by dextersmith View Post
    I'm really out of the loop. Why are Ukrainian soldiers surrendering? Is Russia winning now?
    They were in a city that was surrounded by Russian soldiers, but the rest of the places that Russians are, they are losing almost every engagement.

  12. #20312
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it is a logical request to have Sweden condemn PKK at the highest level.
    It's a logical request but it is also a silly request. Sweden has condemned PKK many many times and was the first country after Turkey to classify them as a terrorist group, something which led to PKK being one of the prime suspects when Sweden's prime minister was assassinated in 1986. Sweden has also extradited a bunch of PKK members to Turkey over the years, but it's always been done according to the rule of law and with solid information to base individual cases on rather than just by request, which is why this sweeping extradition demand is so egregious. Here's what Sweden's foreign minister has to say about it:

    https://twitter.com/AnnLinde/status/1527571415012089856

  13. #20313
    Elemental Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    For someone who keeps claiming everything is on schedule and going accordink to plan, Putin sure is firing a lot of high-ranking generals.

    Well, not that many. Ukraine's killing the rest.
    Those are not mutually exclusive. How much you wanna bet Putin is posthumously (prehumously?) firing the generals that died?


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  14. #20314
    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    There is something nazi going on in background, but unlike Hitler, Putin didnt groom the young into those due to lack of time (only 3-4 years).
    Yeah the special classes in school they have in russa.
    He is using people from poor areas as soldiers and this has bitten him into ass, as those soldiers are to stupid.

    Its like recruting peasants for war in middle ages and giving them some old army armor and sending them against proffesional soldiers who do war for living.
    If they attacked like this 8 years sooner, Ukraine will have a much harder time to defend as they gave them time to prepare.
    Problem is not with soldiers, it's with command.

    Soldiers' job is to execute lawful order, not plan wars or operations. The cannon fodder they send there comes with no sufficient training, equipment, information and orders amounting to "do stuff whatever" or go assault that location and may the force be with you.

    And then the whole "lawful" part is not exactly Russian army curriculum strong point either. Not surprising either because the army there is survival of the fittest, where even lower ranking officers and even sergeants can act with impunity towards rank and file soldiers. So no wonder when this horde is unleashed they act as animals trying to survive.

    Basically age old issue with Russia where command is busy with power plays, intimidation and robbing the funds, rather than actually managing their forces.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  15. #20315
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    I don't know what to think here.

    If this is real then maybe someone should just teach those russians about basic stuff.

    (NOTE: I don't know how reliable Euromaidan press is but this sounds like something the russian army would do)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Euromaida...54308115042305

  16. #20316
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Those are not mutually exclusive. How much you wanna bet Putin is posthumously (prehumously?) firing the generals that died?
    Maybe? The fact that he's firing the higher-ranking ones I think is a bigger deal. But yes, he's already declaring the soldiers he sent to war to be not soldiers so he doesn't have to pay the families benefits. It would not surprise me if he did the same with officers.

  17. #20317
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it is a logical request to have Sweden condemn PKK at the highest level. I don't see how they can extradite anyone to Turkey as it is now though. There is absolutely no guarantee of a fair trial in Turkey and the extradited persons can easily make such a case and stall in courts till the cows come home. Ofc Sweden could move to extradite knowing that would happen which would be a fine solution internationally but possibly problematic for Sweden when it comes to local politics (have no idea how strong a pro-PKK kurdish presence there is)?
    I don't see any chance for supposed Gulenists being extradited from Sweden, Finland, the US or anywhere else. I think a chance of the YPG being condemned as a terrorist organization by the US and other NATO members is improbable. Also cannot see Turkey getting back in the F-35 program until it picks a side between NATO and Russia. What can happen is some solid committments for other investments that can boost the economy up.
    While demands from USA are simply irrelevant to the matter at hand, under these conditions, we should block Sweden indefinitely from joining NATO. If they do not

    1 - extradite PKK leadership in Europe
    2 - stop funding PKK/YPG
    3 - stop spearheading anti-Turkey efforts in Europe
    4 - remove arms embargo

    Then there is not point having them in an one-for-all/all-for-one alliance that we are part of. Others are free to defend Sweden outside of NATO framework. People keep mentioning USA has a similar take on YPG. That's true, but USA isn't trying to join NATO, Sweden is. The moment when they need something from Turkey, similar demands will be made.

  18. #20318
    Elemental Lord PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I don't know what to think here.

    If this is real then maybe someone should just teach those russians about basic stuff.

    (NOTE: I don't know how reliable Euromaidan press is but this sounds like something the russian army would do)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Euromaida...54308115042305
    First they were digging ditches in the Red Forest, now they're fortifying berms with ammonium nitrate?

    The memes practically write themselves.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  19. #20319
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    While demands from USA are simply irrelevant to the matter at hand, under these conditions, we should block Sweden indefinitely from joining NATO. If they do not

    1 - extradite PKK leadership in Europe
    2 - stop funding PKK/YPG
    3 - stop spearheading anti-Turkey efforts in Europe
    4 - remove arms embargo

    Then there is not point having them in an one-for-all/all-for-one alliance that we are part of. Others are free to defend Sweden outside of NATO framework. People keep mentioning USA has a similar take on YPG. That's true, but USA isn't trying to join NATO, Sweden is. The moment when they need something from Turkey, similar demands will be made.
    What do they need to demand from Turkey? Turkey has nothing they need or want.. dont think otherwise.

  20. #20320
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    First they were digging ditches in the Red Forest, now they're fortifying berms with ammonium nitrate?

    The memes practically write themselves.
    I know comparing them to Orks is a meme, but trying to make sandbags out of explosives is one of the Orkiest things I can think of.
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