1. #20341
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    What Russia chooses to call it to people with eyeballs glued to a TV back home is immaterial to things that will require negotiations with the Ukrainian government, when the war reaches a stage of actually coming to a halt.
    And there was no declaration of war from Russia nor Ukraine btw. So from international right point of view, I am not sure it is a "war".

  2. #20342
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I mean... Russia stepped into the ring for a fight, and now they're complaining that the guy they blindsided swung around and is punching them back. To hell with their "feelings."

    Germany's role in World War 1 as an inclusion due to a series of complicated allegiances and the rather crushing reparations they were saddled with is miles different from what Germany did in WW2 and what Russia is doing now.

    We're not at the parallel point where the dust has settled and Russia is being saddled with reparations they can't pay so as to engender financial crisis, unrest and anger within its populace driving them to hand the reins of power to nationalistic, genocidal madman, as was the case in the interim between WW1 and WW2 in Germany.

    Russia is ALREADY under the control of a nationalistic, genocidal madman who's trying to expand, testing the boundaries of what he can get away with before he's acquired enough steam to start really pushing the nations of Europe.

    We're not at the end of WW1 in our little parallel, here. We're right before the start of WW2. But most countries, rightfully so, learned their lesson last time.

    Would you have said "Fuck Hitler and the third reich's 'feelings,' they deserve every insult, slander, affront and hindrance we can levvy at them now, before they can become a real force to be reckoned with" in the late 1930s when Germany started annexing? 'Cuz that's what we should be saying to Putin, now.

    The outstanding difference is that Putin has nuclear deterrent on his side to keep other countries from interfering more directly.
    I wouldn't call the Wilhelm II very sweet and levelheaded when it came to war, so that parallel still works. My point stands though when this is over we should not let ourselves become trapped in the same mindset that led to Versailles and ultimately WWII.

    I'm also not saying we should appease putin, I'm saying we need to create an environment where russia got beaten up but not humiliated in the aftermath. Which is ALSO a lesson learned from WWI.

    I think Macron's words were ill timed, but in essence not incorrect: "Beat the russians, but don't humiliate them afterwards", might have been a better way of saying it.

  3. #20343
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yeah...

    In all seriousness I don't think appeasement is appropriate but we shouldn't go full Versailles on Russia either.
    You are correct. We should go full post WW2 Germany on Russia.

  4. #20344
    Versailles gets a lot more blame than it deserves. It was the Great Depression more than anything that led to WW2.

    Weirdly, the US was loaning money to Germany prior to the great depression which was then used to pay reperations.

  5. #20345
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    The Ukrainians are really not happy with Macron at the moment with his latest statement about not humiliating Putin.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61691816

    Tell you what, Macron, why don't you appease him by giving him 20% of France?

    - - - Updated - - -

    20% of comrades without running water are lucky. Means they not have to pay for expensive toilets and sinks.

    https://archive.ph/Pd6u5

    More on how the sanctions are sending Russia back 30 years. Even sinks, toilets and taps are becoming hard to get.
    Russia is playing dirty with their wheat blockage. World is heading to a colossal food crisis. It will become much more apparent next winter. People seek compromise even if it is a sacrifice Ukrainians' to make.

  6. #20346
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    My first thought when I read that was, so he means don't repeat Versailles? Sounds sensible to me, and the, very predictable, response was exactly as expected. I don't mind giving the russians a bloody nose, but we need to guard against a sentiment of revanchism to take root.
    In what world is that even a consideration? Russia itself is under no threat, no one is going to tell Russia to disarm if they lose this conflict.

    Russia losing means their army goes home (alive or in a box) and that's the end of it.
    Once the Russian Army is out of Ukraine I expect a fair bit of the more impactful sanctions to drop, as the EU wants to relieve pressure off their own economy. While keeping some meaningless embargos that don't actually have much impact to put up a show to the public as still being somewhat against Russia.

    The idea that Russia would be humiliated through tough terms by the international community after a loss is based on nothing. (not counting the humiliation Russia has already inflicted on itself by showing the entire world they are no longer a superpower).
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #20347
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    Wana know what is realy funny. Ukraine forces are right now using Chuikov strategy of hugging the enemy, so russans cant use artilery in a city.
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  8. #20348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Wana know what is realy funny. Ukraine forces are right now using Chuikov strategy of hugging the enemy, so russans cant use artilery in a city.
    Seems to be working so far.

  9. #20349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Wana know what is realy funny. Ukraine forces are right now using Chuikov strategy of hugging the enemy, so russans cant use artilery in a city.
    I have zero doubts they'd shell them anyways. It'd be Ukrainian soldiers and urban warfare fodder from LPR.
    Using the LPR helps pad their numbers.
    No Russians were in the city during the attempted renovation of the city's infrastructure to meet current standards in Russia.
    No Russians were hurt in the making of this atrocity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  10. #20350
    What appears to be the first damaged T62M.

  11. #20351
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Fuck that. We should absolutely try to humiliate Putin. Maybe he will finally do the right thing and kill himself if the West laughs at him enough.
    With how anti-gay most of Russia is someone should deepfake Putin taking a bunch of dicks. They would probably be more willing to get rid of him over that instead of just getting a bunch of their kids killed and destroying their economy.

  12. #20352
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    My first thought when I read that was, so he means don't repeat Versailles? Sounds sensible to me, and the, very predictable, response was exactly as expected. I don't mind giving the russians a bloody nose, but we need to guard against a sentiment of revanchism to take root.
    That sense is already there, it will undoubtedly prevail no matter the outcome of this war and this whole being attacked from all sides idea is so deeply ingrained in Russian culture that "a repeat of Versailles" should not be the discussion to be had.

    Yes. I said it. Let's assume Russia wins this war, they will still want more, if only to punish those who dared to oppose. To punish all countries that helped Ukraine.

    If you don't put the dog down now, he will bite you tomorrow.

    What you need to do is break Russia. Much like Germany after WW2. Defeat them to such an extent that there is no doubt at all that the mother of beatdowns is going to happen if they don't seriously reflect on the bullshit they've pulled since WW2 and change their ways. Due to the natural paranoia in Russian culture, we have accomodated their bullshit for over 30 years now. It's time to end this. They started the fight, we better make sure we're the ones that end it.
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  13. #20353
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    With how anti-gay most of Russia is someone should deepfake Putin taking a bunch of dicks. They would probably be more willing to get rid of him over that instead of just getting a bunch of their kids killed and destroying their economy.
    Lots of this stuff running around. A real power(bottom) couple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  14. #20354
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Dvornikov didn't deliver.

    The, apparent, new one has been in Syria as well. Setting aside funny business, last I heard replacing the overall commander of a theatre without a good cause wasn't the best idea ever though.

  15. #20355
    do another general get iced? ooooof

  16. #20356
    Another general is reported to have been iced, but it want Dvornikov. He apparently just got fired because he wasn't winning.

    With the current state of the Russian army, I doubt anyone could satisfy Putin and win.

  17. #20357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Another general is reported to have been iced, but it want Dvornikov. He apparently just got fired because he wasn't winning.

    With the current state of the Russian army, I doubt anyone could satisfy Putin and win.
    The executions shall continue until morale improves!
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  18. #20358
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Another general is reported to have been iced, but it want Dvornikov. He apparently just got fired because he wasn't winning.

    With the current state of the Russian army, I doubt anyone could satisfy Putin and win.
    Putin will soon try to raise Zhukov from the grave in his attempts to win. Only for Zhukov to turn on him. Not because of Morals or anything like that.

  19. #20359
    Spain is reportedly going to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, the first western tanks to be supplied.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/spai...-pais-reports/

    It is meant to be around 40 older model tanks but still a lot more advanced than what Russia has in terms of thermal optics, gyrostabilisers etc
    Last edited by Corvus; 2022-06-06 at 02:59 AM.

  20. #20360
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    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

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