Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gorsameth]

Of course not, don't be silly. Unless you think that diplomacy by definition means appeasement, otherwise nobody here thinks Ukraine should give up more territory.

There is no diplomacy to be had until Russia is out of Ukraine. Putin sure isn't going to put 'we will give up all our gains and go home in shame' on the table. And if he were to its as simple as him ordering the withdraw.

[YUPPIE]

I don't like the notion of diplomacy and business resuming as usual if Russia simply leaves Ukraine in a mundane way.

They HAVE to pay for everything they've done for the next 50 years or so, maybe even a hundred or more. You don't murder thousands and decimate whole cities in modern times and just resume the status quo if you lose your warmongering gambit.

[DarkTZeratul]

They HAVE to pay for everything they've done for the next 50 years or so, maybe even a hundred or more.

Yeah, no. This isn't how international relations work, at all, for a whole host of reasons. That's not justice, that's vengeance, and grossly disproportionate vengeance at that.

[YUPPIE]

Yeah, no. This isn't how international relations work, at all, for a whole host of reasons. That's not justice, that's vengeance, and grossly disproportionate vengeance at that.

they decimated entire cities and raped and murdered their way through swathes of civilians. If Russia can come back from this in no time as you claim, that's a sign anyone can do that and get off the hook if they surrender at some point. Even if you see it as vengeful to sanction them to regress into a third world country, you don't just do what they've done and get a slap on the wrist.

but Joe Biden has promised Russia will assuredly be a pariah state, at least

[Kallisto]

they decimated entire cities and raped and murdered their way through swathes of civilians. If Russia can come back from this in no time as you claim, that's a sign anyone can do that and get off the hook if they surrender at some point. Even if you see it as vengeful to sanction them to regress into a third world country, you don't just do what they've done and get a slap on the wrist.

but Joe Biden has promised Russia will assuredly be a pariah state, at least

We let countries off the hook all the time for this kind of shit. Or if they're on the correct side supply them and look the other way. Case and point Saudi Arabia in Yemen is basically doing everything Russia is doing in Ukraine with a decade's worth of experience. African nations who are warring each other or have civil wars are also doing similar actions.

International politics gives zero crap about morals.

[YUPPIE]

Saudi Arabia

America is not friends with SA. That is all.

And some of the scarier politicians in the US have hinted giving their monarchy the "stick" over the carrot in time.

[Draco-Onis]

America is not friends with SA. That is all.

We give them weapons, help them commit genocide, cover up their crimes, visit them to beg for things on a regular basis, what else would you call it?

[YUPPIE]

We give them weapons, help them commit genocide, cover up their crimes, visit them to beg for things on a regular basis, what else would you call it?

a pragmatic partnership held up by right-wing politics in the US.

[Draco-Onis]

a pragmatic partnership held up by right-wing politics in the US.

All of our "friendships" are pragmatic partnerships, we spy, steal and screw our "friends" on a regular basis.

[YUPPIE]

All of our "friendships" are pragmatic partnerships, we spy, steal and screw our "friends" on a regular basis.

just to stay on topic in correlation to Russia in regards to Saudi Arabia: their royalty's time is indeed coming eventually so I would not write them off as getting off the hook as an excuse for Russia to be able to slink away for their atrocities in Ukraine.

[Kallisto]

a pragmatic partnership held up by right-wing politics in the US.

So every friendship in international politics ever

[Draco-Onis]

just to stay on topic in correlation to Russia in regards to Saudi Arabia: their royalty's time is indeed coming eventually so I would not write them off as getting off the hook as an excuse for Russia to be able to slink away for their atrocities in Ukraine.

They will eventually get their come upon is not really a good line however that is not the point. Since morality is not a factor here what Ukraine needs to figure out is their limit because the western unity will likely not survive the next election cycle.

[YUPPIE]

because the western unity will likely not survive the next election cycle.

because Trump will get re-elected?

[Draco-Onis]

because Trump will get re-elected?

While that might happen that's not it, the world is now focused on domestic issues (recession, inflation, high interest rates, markets crashing). Ukraine has taken a backseat to all these concerns, people are "tired" of hearing about the war.

[YUPPIE]

people are "tired" of hearing about the war.

well, that's wrong and evil as well. That's what enables imperialist cunts like Putin to do as they please and then before you know it, he's on your doorstep.

Also the way you phrase that makes it seem like this Ukraine crisis isn't a *huge* tragedy where thousands are being raped and killed by the day but merely a novel flavor of the year spectacle for the West. And more importantly, it means those billions in dollars being invested into Ukraine by America is not a big deal either.

[Draco-Onis]

it means those billions in dollars being invested into Ukraine by America is not a big deal either.

It isn't we flushed trillions of dollars down the drain in Afghanistan, the money going to Ukraine isn't free it's a loan.

[Kallisto]

well, that's wrong and evil as well. That's what enables imperialist cunts like Putin to do as they please and then before you know it, he's on your doorstep.

Also the way you phrase that makes it seem like this Ukraine crisis isn't a *huge* tragedy where thousands are being raped and killed by the day but merely a novel flavor of the year spectacle for the West. And more importantly, it means those billions in dollars being invested into Ukraine by America is not a big deal either.

The world defence spending is roughly $2 trillion. Of which the US last year spent $0.9 trillion. Nearly half of the world's defence spending. The amount that's gone to Ukraine for weapons in US budget is next to nothing.

[Ripster42]

The world defence spending is roughly $2 trillion. Of which the US last year spent $0.9 trillion. Nearly half of the world's defence spending. The amount that's gone to Ukraine for weapons in US budget is next to nothing.

It's not next to nothing, but it's not exactly expensive for what it does. To be cynical, we're not going to be paying for ukraine's medical costs from this war for the next 40 years, while inflicting those costs on russia, along with a serious degradation in their existing military stock piles. It'd be a bit ironic though, if this did for russia what @Skroe was always joshing them for: force them to get rid of all their old crap and actually modernize. Probably not though.

[YUPPIE]

Russia has said multiple times they would have no choice but to use nukes if forced into a complete societal collapse through sanctions.

With that threat in mind, are we actually enforcing any meaningful sanctions at all? The ruble is still going strong, and a report stated more people bought Russian oil than ever since they waged war on Ukraine this year, China has also pledged unwavering faith to Russia.

It feels like sanctions for how much they’re mentioned are useless and all talk.

[Kaleredar]

force them to get rid of all their old crap and actually modernize. Probably not though.

Well, them being actively engaged in a war while their economy collapses, the rest of the world shuts them off and qualified individuals flee their country probably isn't good for "modernizing."