1. #20741
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    I have a somber question for you, and for any patriotic Russian who is reading this.

    It took a full military defeat and an occupation for Nazi Germany to come to their senses, snap out of Nazism and turn into a peaceful prosperous country. Similar story for Japan. But because of MAD, the worst military outcome for Russia can be "we fought entire West and it ended in a draw". So how can Russian people snap out of "we're orcs from Mordor" Nazi mindset y'all are now? A powerful top-to-bottom reformer ala Gorbachov could possibly do it, but he doesn't exist right now, and how would he (or she) get into power? Looks grim to me.
    Ahm, as a German, Nazism is quite alive here, I have to (sadly) say. I mean, it's leagues away from what it was in the 30es, but, as Bertolt Brecht put it;

    "Der Schoß ist fruchtbar noch, aus dem das kroch."
    (The loins this spawned from are still fertile.)

    Agree with the peaceful and prosperous part, though. Still, things like that hardly die. They just crawl back for a while.

  2. #20742
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/27/e...ntl/index.html




    Anyone defending ruSSian actions should be tried in court of justice. Or at least banned here on MMO-C
    I hope no.
    If the discussion keep civil there is no reason to ban someone, russian or not.
    Also is very important in my opinion to try in some ways to understand their point of view (even if we not agree) and explain our.
    That's the essence of our democracy and the main difference with a regime like Russia where you can't even be against the war and said it loud

  3. #20743
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    8,715
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgarw View Post
    I hope no.
    If the discussion keep civil there is no reason to ban someone, russian or not.
    Also is very important in my opinion to try in some ways to understand their point of view (even if we not agree) and explain our.
    That's the essence of our democracy and the main difference with a regime like Russia where you can't even be against the war and said it loud
    Nah. There is no reason to tolerate any of it. Especially when it comes to pure, disgusting propaganda machines like Shalcker in here. I agree that a trial is too far, but banning the lot is very much appropriate. Necessary, even.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  4. #20744
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    phasing...
    Posts
    24,199
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    No, i mean specifically Western sanctions against Russia - especially seizure of Central Bank assets.

    Which was done without any kind of UN vote.

    The rest of the world gives zero fucks... and has zero empathy... about Russian assets being seized.
    You know what also happened without any kind of UN vote?

    The invasion of Ukraine.

    We'll see soon enough.
    Are you still parsing through the articles in which I detailed Russia's interior assessments of how terrible everything is going for them?

    Or are we pretending we didn't see that, deary?

    Meanwhile China meets banks to discuss protecting assets from US sanctions and flies strategic bombers in joint mission with Russia over Pacific.

    Same could be said about Russia; a lot of things override "modern conveniences", and "territorial integrity" (however China defines it) usually comes on top over that.

    You know what's more useful than military training exercises?

    Providing military support, like arms and training... like Europe and the US is doing for Ukraine, to blow up the Russian invaders.

    China doesn't seem to want to provide that to Russia, for some reason, and seems to be largely scaling back their involvement in any way that actually matters. Almost like they aren't willing to face western sanctions to support Russia's little despotic fantasy, because China's interests serve only China, and right now all you are to them is a cheap source of oil.

    Hell, you seem intent to bandy on about China, so here's something you love: gigantic block quotes!

    Here's what China thinks about Russia, as per the words of Gao Yuanchaun, former Chinese ambassador to numerous former eastern-bloc states, including Ukraine:

    https://asiatimes.com/2022/05/rethin...aine-in-china/

    The Former PRC Ambassador to Ukraine Gao Yusheng: The Dynamics of the Russian-Ukrainian War and the Implications for the International Order

    中国驻乌*兰前⼤*⾼⽟⽣:俄乌战争的⾛势和对国际秩序的影响

    Former PRC Ambassador to Ukraine Gao Yusheng ⾼⽟⽣

    The Impact of the Russian-Ukrainian War on the International Order

    Recently, the Forum of Thirty on China’s International Finance and the Department of International Studies of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences hosted an internal video seminar to discuss how the Russia-Ukraine crisis has changed the global financial landscape, its impact on China and how China should respond.

    Former Chinese Ambassador to Ukraine Gao Yuanchuan spoke at the seminar. The following is the text of his talk including edits he made after giving his talk.

    The Russo-Ukrainian War is the most important international event of the post-Cold War period. It marks the end of the post-Cold War period and creates in a new international order.

    Russia’s position in the Russia-Ukraine war has become increasingly passive and unfavorable. Its coming defeat is already clear.

    The main reasons why Russia is now heading towards defeat are:

    Russia has been declining ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union, a decline that is first of all a continuation of the pre-dissolution Soviet Union. It is also related to the failures of the internal and external policies of the Russian ruling clique. This process has been exacerbated by Western economic sanctions which have damaged sectors of the Russian economy. The so-called revival or revitalization of Russia under Putin’s leadership is false; it simply does not exist. Russia’s decline is evident in its economic, military, technological, political, and social spheres, and has had a serious negative impact on the Russian military and its war effort.
    The failure of the Russian blitzkrieg and the failure to achieve a quick victory signaled the beginning of the Russian defeat. The Russian military’s economic and financial strength, which are not commensurate with its status as a so-called military superpower, could not support a high-tech war costing hundreds of millions of dollars a day. The Russian army’s poverty-driven defeat was evident everywhere on the battlefield. Every day that the war is delayed is a heavy burden for Russia.
    Russian military and economic advantages over Ukraine have been offset by the resilience of Ukraine and the huge, sustained and effective aid provided to Ukraine. The generational differences between Russia and the US and other NATO countries in the areas of weapons and technology, military concepts, and modes of warfare make the advantages and disadvantages of both sides even more pronounced.
    Modern wars are necessarily hybrid wars, covering military, economic, political, diplomatic, public opinion, propaganda, intelligence, and information. Russia is not only in a passive position on the battlefield, but has lost in other areas. This means that it is only a matter of time before Russia is finally. It is only a matter of time before Russia is finally defeated.
    Russia can no longer decide when and how the war will end. Russia is trying to end the war as soon as possible so it can hold on to what it has gained. This has failed. In this sense, Russia has lost its strategic leadership and initiative.

    The next phase of the war is likely to be more violent and intense

    The possibility of expansion and escalation cannot be ruled out. This is because: the objectives of the two sides are diametrically opposed. Ensuring its sovereignty over Crimea and eastern Ukraine is clearly the bottom line for the Russian side.

    Ukraine will not concede to Russia on the issue of sovereignty and territorial integrity and will be determined to recover eastern Ukraine and Crimea through war. The US, NATO and the EU have repeatedly affirmed their determination to defeat Putin.

    US Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs John Sully recently emphasized three goals for the US to achieve in the Russia-Ukraine war.

    An independent and liberal Ukraine.
    A weakened and isolated Russia.
    A strong, united, and resolute West.

    In order to achieve these goals, the United States and the NATO EU countries have not only significantly increased their assistance to Ukraine, but the United States also passed the first post-World War II Lend Lease Act. The US has internationalized and institutionalized its assistance to Ukraine through the 41st Defense Ministerial Conference.

    More importantly, the direct involvement of the US and Britain in the war is deepening and expanding. All of this suggests that the war will be fought until Russia is defeated and punished.

    The Russo-Ukrainian War and the New International Order

    The Russo-Ukrainian War put an end to the Yalta system and the remnants of the Cold War, and the world began to move toward a new pattern and order of international relations.

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia inherited the Soviet Union’s status as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and a military superpower; Russia continued and retained much of the legacy and influence of the former Soviet Union in domestic politics, economy, society, culture and ideology; and Russian foreign policy was a blend of the foreign policies of the former Soviet Union and of the Tsarist Empire.

    (1) The central and overriding direction of the Putin regime’s foreign policy is to regard the former Soviet Union as its exclusive sphere of influence and to restore the empire through the mechanism of integration in all spheres of that area under Russian domination.

    Russia has been focused and determined to achieve this goal. Russia has never really recognized the independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity of other former Soviet states, and has frequently violated their territoriality and sovereignty. The Russian-Ukrainian war has changed this situation dramatically in terms of peace and security in the Eurasian region.

    After the independence of Ukraine, especially since 2000, the two factions in the country, which had been essentially equally divided between the East and the West leaning factions which were elected to power alternately.

    Following the annexation of Crimea and the occupation of parts of eastern Ukraine in 2014, anti-Russian sentiment in Ukraine rose and pro-Russian forces began to shrink. Most of the people in Ukraine, not only in the east but also in the south, supported the country’s entry into the EU and NATO.

    After the outbreak of the war, the situation in Ukraine has fundamentally changed. The country is united in its resistance to Russia and its salvation. It can be said that Russia has completely lost Ukraine.

    At the same time, the former Soviet Union, with the exception of white Russia, including the members of the Collective Security Treaty and the Eurasian Economic Union, have refused to support Russia. Russia’s defeat would leave it with no hope of rebuilding its old empire.

    In order to gain the international status and influence of the Tsarist Empire or the former Soviet Union, break the existing international order, change the geopolitical map of the Eurasian continent and the world.

    Russia is obsessed with regrouping the former Soviet states and restoring its alliance or empire. This is in contrast to the US position. This is a fundamental confrontation and conflict with the US. This is the main conflict and sticking point in Russia’s relations with the US.

    To a large extent, the conflict between the two sides on this issue is a continuation and remnant of the Cold War between the US and the USSR, and has a certain ideological color. It also has a certain ideological color.

    Through this war, the confrontation and struggle between Russia and the US in the context of the American Empire ended in a total defeat for Russia. It has ended the post-Cold War or the continuation of the Cold War.

    (2) Possible points of the evolution of the international order after the Russo-Ukrainian war

    Russia’s political, economic, military and diplomatic power will be significantly weakened and isolated. Russia will be significantly weakened, isolated and punished. Russia’s power will weaken even more. Russia may be expelled from some important international organizations and its international status will be significantly reduced. Russia’s international status will be significantly reduced.
    Ukraine would be removed from Russia’s orbit and sphere of influence (if Russia still has a sphere of influence) and become a member of the great European family. A member of the European family, i.e., a member of the European Union.
    Other former Soviet states may experience new and different degrees of de-Russianization. Some countries will move more actively to strengthen their ties with the West.
    Japan and Germany, while completely free from the constraints of the defeated countries of World War II and accelerating their armament development, will more actively strive for the status of political powers. Japan and Germany will be more active in seeking the status of political powers. However, they will not break away from the democratic camp, nor will they completely abandon the policy of peaceful development.
    The US and other countries will push hard for substantive reform of the UN and other important international organizations. If they are blocked, they may also start a new one. Both may exclude some countries, such as Russia, by drawing ideological lines of so-called independence.
    High praise from your "friends" indeed.

    And if you disagree with that assessment of the situation... I dunno, take it up with China.

    As example see Ukraine being unwilling to let go of this dream right this very moment.
    ...the dream that they aren't still some soviet vassal state?

    Because they seem to be maintaining that dream a lot more readily than Russia's "dream," that they'd invade and Ukraine would concede territory in a few days, that their economy wouldn't be plunged back a decade, that their military wouldn't be shown to be an international laughing stock, that NATO members wouldn't materialize on their borders and that tens of thousands of their men wouldn't be blown to pieces.

    However, no matter how hard Russia dreams that... it's not coming true. Hell, China doesn't even believe that dream of yours.

    Not seeing anything like that in your link.

    Right, magic technologies that will create matter from pure energy, sure.

    You could be generating natural gas from atmospheric CO2 and water! They have all the right elements! ...at x1000 cost.

    And Russia is going to build the factories to repair its damaged equipment, generate medical supplies, create infrastructure to create highly specialized microchips, build shipyards to replace ships, and build factories to build airplane parts right? All as their economy collapses and their supply lines run thin?

    Cuz alternate sources of energy are easier for other countries who aren't under crushing sanctions to manage than it is for Russia, who is, to whip up all the things they're already hurting on. Three. Months. In.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-05-28 at 09:00 AM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  5. #20745
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You know what also happened without any kind of UN vote?

    The invasion of Ukraine.



    Are you still parsing through the articles in which I detailed Russia's interior assessments of how terrible everything is going for them?

    Or are we pretending we didn't see that, deary?




    You know what's more useful than military training exercises?

    Providing military support, like arms and training... like Europe and the US is doing for Ukraine, to blow up the Russian invaders.

    China doesn't seem to want to provide that to Russia, for some reason, and seems to be largely scaling back their involvement in any way that actually matters. Almost like they aren't willing to face western sanctions to support Russia's little despotic fantasy, because China's interests serve only China, and right now all you are to them is a cheap source of oil.

    Hell, you seem intent to bandy on about China, so here's something you love: gigantic block quotes!

    Here's what China thinks about Russia, as per the words of Gao Yuanchaun, former Chinese ambassador to numerous former eastern-bloc states, including Ukraine:

    https://asiatimes.com/2022/05/rethin...aine-in-china/



    High praise from your "friends" indeed.

    And if you disagree with that assessment of the situation... I dunno, take it up with China.



    ...the dream that they aren't still some soviet vassal state?

    Because they seem to be maintaining that dream a lot more readily than Russia's "dream," that they'd invade and Ukraine would concede territory in a few days, that their economy wouldn't be plunged back a decade, that their military wouldn't be shown to be an international laughing stock, that NATO members wouldn't materialize on their borders and that tens of thousands of their men wouldn't be blown to pieces.

    However, no matter how hard Russia dreams that... it's not coming true. Hell, China doesn't even believe that dream of yours.




    And Russia is going to build the factories to repair its tanks, generate medical supplies, create infrastructure to create highly specialized microchips, and build airplane parts right? As their economy collapses?

    Cuz alternate sources of energy are easier for other countries who aren't under crushing sanctions to manage than it is for Russia, who is, to whip up all the things they're already hurting on. Three. Months. In.
    But here I thought Russia did not try to end the war in 3 days because they did not say so ! As per @Shallcker. But it seems that even the chineses think that it is what they tried to do.

  6. #20746
    The war in Ukraine has fallen off the front pages here for the most part. Understandable, but in the absence of anything particularly newsworthy there it's easy to think that not much is happening. Johnson said recently that Russia is making 'palpable progress' in Donbas, and has just captured the strategically important town of Lyman. It seems that despite significant losses and the failure of its initial strategy, Russia is slowly making ground with plan B.

  7. #20747
    You guys know what? I'm starting to think Shillcker is actually a false flag operator, because he is literally the biggest reason (next to Putin) my opinion of the russian people has gone down the toilet.

  8. #20748
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    The Continent of Orsterra
    Posts
    11,863
    Its kinda satisfaying to watch russan streamers suffer:


    Their internet is also being realy shit right now and i have a felling russan security service is watching them.
    Also from what i have seen they also defend their country and being all idealistic.
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  9. #20749
    Of course China is in for their own interests. They will keep things friendly enough with Russia, because they themselves are eyeing Taiwan and other goals in their sphere of influence. They will need that UN veto and someone to watch their back when they will inevitably decide to go for it.

    They also assuredly would like to create some sort of counter alliance to give West a pause and entice others to join and Russia is an important piece in that.

    Now, that's not to say they are happy about the whole mess - I am sure CCP is not exactly happy about Putin starting this, simply because it's both way too soon and because inadvertently it put the West into consolidation and preparation mode ahead of schedule.

    So right now China is forced to try to walk the fine line of neutrality-ish on the whole thing. They are not quite ready yet for their own BS. On the other hand I have no doubt China will give a hand to Russia if things are dire, because they have no interest in Russian regime collapse or worse some sort of coup or course reversal happening that would align Russia with the West (or at least chill it the fuck down).
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2022-05-28 at 10:31 AM.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  10. #20750
    China isn't going to lift a finger to save Russia - a broken Russia is even better for them because they would be utterly dependent on China and China could just bend them over and have their way with them.

    Prior to this, I am sure they were looking at Russia to help them out against the West, but given how badly Russia has performed, how they have wrecked their armed forces in the process and can't replace their lost vehicles because of sanctions on critical components, they'd be of very little help to China in the event of anything happening. No doubt China realises that they would in effect be on their own.

    And Taiwan has been watching Ukraine's heroic resistance with interest as well. They are learning the lessons from it. China is probably not happy about that either.

  11. #20751
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Your news outlets were already saying "Russia is running out of missiles" back in March; missiles still fly to this day.

    Donbass is getting routed as we speak. Kherson and Melitopol are switching to roubles.

    Western help to Ukraine is laughable and makes no difference.
    Over 2400 vehicles have been destroyed and of 2400 there are 410 tanks that got deleted thanks to javelin, NLAW, and others. Your Helicopters are getting destroyed thanks to stinger and other MANPADS. your planes are nowhere to be seen other than a few meters above the ground. So by the looks of it the western help is really good. Oh, I forgot to mention all the howitzers that Ukraine have been getting.

    also "Donbas is getting routed as we speak. "
    Really? you took ur entire army that was around Kyiv (mind u they retreated because they couldn't do anything) plus all the other armies that retreated or couldn't hold their ground brought more reserve just to just to take a single area and u still cant.

  12. #20752
    Hmf...On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine..and it's been 3 months ongoing from what was initially touted as a conflict that won't last much longer than 3 days.

  13. #20753
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Hmf...On 24 February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine..and it's been 3 months ongoing from what was initially touted as a conflict that won't last much longer than 3 days.
    Nearly 30k dead ruzzki orcs. Shillcker: "everything is going as planned".

  14. #20754
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgarw View Post
    I hope no.
    If the discussion keep civil there is no reason to ban someone, russian or not.
    Also is very important in my opinion to try in some ways to understand their point of view (even if we not agree) and explain our.
    That's the essence of our democracy and the main difference with a regime like Russia where you can't even be against the war and said it loud
    If I started to post how purging jewish people from the face of the planet in death camps was a good thing, would you try to see my side of the matter instead of reporting me here/to police? Mind you, that kind of talk is punishable by law in many european countries for example.

    Funnily enough, that kind of talk is harshly punished, but this modern version of a purge is A-OKAY here. There is no room for tolerance for straight up 1000 word essays for nearly each and every post to misdirect, divert and outright lie in defence of a genocide.

    And a flood of disinformation is certainly not civil. Ever.
    Last edited by Saradain; 2022-05-28 at 12:26 PM.

  15. #20755
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Your news outlets were already saying "Russia is running out of missiles" back in March; missiles still fly to this day.

    Donbass is getting routed as we speak. Kherson and Melitopol are switching to roubles.

    Western help to Ukraine is laughable and makes no difference.
    Economy on the verge of defaulting, tens of thousands dead, equipment losses the country hasn't faced since WW2, all of it against a neighbor that any other western country would've crushed in a week if they'd wanted to.

    Literally invaded on 3 fronts and got held back.

    Kherson and Melitopol occupations will fail for the simple reason that Russia blew its load. They'd been relying on the fear of invasion by them to stop Ukraine from crushing the insurgency in Donbas already, now they have nothing to threaten them with. Are they going to invade again or make more hollow nuclear threats? Ukraine will fight until the end for their territory.

  16. #20756
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    And a flood of disinformation is certainly not civil. Ever.
    This. Even if we ignore all the rest of the bs and forum rule breaking, what defense is there for clear Kremlin propaganda to run on this site?

  17. #20757
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    This. Even if we ignore all the rest of the bs and forum rule breaking, what defense is there for clear Kremlin propaganda to run on this site?
    If one stays in character 100% of the time there is nothing that the mods can do.

  18. #20758
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgarw View Post
    I hope no.
    If the discussion keep civil there is no reason to ban someone, russian or not.
    Also is very important in my opinion to try in some ways to understand their point of view (even if we not agree) and explain our.
    That's the essence of our democracy and the main difference with a regime like Russia where you can't even be against the war and said it loud
    We've heard all we needed to hear at this point. There is nothing to be gained from tolerating their presence, tbh. Civil discussion includes having something to discuss. Making points, having arguments. Whatever you think is going on with those Putinistas, it's not a two-way conversation. It's not a discussion. It's them waiting for you to take a break to breathe so they can throw in their propaganda. And when you think you're retorting or presenting a counter argument, all they do is think about when your next pause is so they can throw in some more bullshit at you.

    This, is decidedly not a civil discussion. It's not a discussion at all. It's spam.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  19. #20759
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    If one stays in character 100% of the time there is nothing that the mods can do.
    An opposing perspective should always be welcome. If for no other reason that it gives others someone to yell at.

  20. #20760
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Industrial heart of the USSR... now torn apart
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    It is impossible to reform great powers from outside without defeat that can impose conditions on them. And MAD makes such defeat impossible in turn.

    So, yeah, you got to wait for reformer and sprinkle a lot of favors for decades before things turn around; negative sanctions simply never work if target isn't extremely eager to return to your "civilized family".

    So the only outcome in Ukraine is going to be conditions imposed upon it. And given Ukrainian losses - unless you see how it can turn things around - those conditions will get worse with each passing day as war continues.
    No, of course the fate of Ukraine will be decided on the battlefield, I wasn't talking about Ukraine at all. I was talking about Russian people remaining in Russia and not fleeing. These people, normal in other aspects, are now in their majority supporting murder and genocide of a neighboring nation, and are blaming problems created by their leaders on the imaginary entity called "West". Russian Federation was never a great power, Soviet Union was. But most Russians don't even think about that, they're in a delirious imperialistic enrage, and their problems will worsen until they calm down. But how will they do that? I don't see a realistic way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Ahm, as a German, Nazism is quite alive here, I have to (sadly) say. I mean, it's leagues away from what it was in the 30es, but, as Bertolt Brecht put it;

    "Der Schoß ist fruchtbar noch, aus dem das kroch."
    (The loins this spawned from are still fertile.)

    Agree with the peaceful and prosperous part, though. Still, things like that hardly die. They just crawl back for a while.
    Yes it's nearly impossible to kill an ideology, but there's a huge difference between a few fringe madmen who dream of genociding "wrong" people while everyone else views them as morons, and a whole nation where the genocidal ideology is official and people who disagree have to keep quiet or they get into trouble. Germany went from the latter to the former, but Russia is stuck for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •