1. #21021
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    So, what? You think the West should assassinate Putin? You think that improves anything for Ukraine or anywhere else?
    read the post above you. We can't really do shit anymore. That time/opportunity has long passed.

    While Putin dying would be satisfying, he is part of the endemic plague that is the Russian government. When he dies, there will be Lavrov in office and the nuclear codes are passed on.

    So not much optimism for a positive outcome at all, diplomatically or violently.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  2. #21022
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    Like how numerous ultra conservatives that have echoed the sentiment: Russia and China have long loomed as a threat to world security and peace because the West let it fester so. They failed to see the threat Stalin and China would pose and let them be after WW2 instead of deposing their governments and annexing them into Western democracies.
    One more time...No one was like "Hey Russia is super-cool" after WW2... but nobody was in much of a position to do anything about them either. Invading Russia is, histroically, a bad idea even when you're not coming out of a World War.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  3. #21023
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    And for those saying sanctions aren't working, this comes from people with Russia. Professors and the like.

    Russia is massively dependent on imports from the US and EU. 67% of its medicines are imported and of those 'made in Russia', 80-85% of the ingredients are imported as well. Imports in the auto parts market compose 95%; games and toys 92%; shoes 87%; telecommunications equipment 86%; clothing 82%; perfumes, cosmetics and detergents 57%, and so on. Russia doesn't even produce its own nails. The collapse in new car sales is even worse than it was in the 98 crisis.
    Shlacker's take on this is that anything Russia needs that it currently must import they will quickly and easily find a way to replicate, no matter how complicated, exacting, or how much infrastructure is required to create it... despite being actively engaged in a war, shut off from a huge chunk of outside trade, and with a crumbling economy. Basically, that their sales of oil to China and India will give them the requisite... well, you name it- resources, infrastructure, manpower- to replace anything Russia needs.

    Meanwhile, anything that the EU (or anywhere else, but let's focus on the EU) needs that currently comes from Russia (pretty much just energy) he maintains that they will be utterly unable to replace, and that the entire rest of the world, in all its interconnection, with all its resources and money and manpower, will be utterly unable to either replace or move away from that which Russia supplies them. Despite... you know, the rest of the world not being at war, not facing crushing sanctions, and not undergoing active economic collapse.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  4. #21024
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    One more time...No one was like "Hey Russia is super-cool" after WW2... but nobody was in much of a position to do anything about them either.
    plenty of things could have been done. And for what it is, in the decades since, not much has seemed to happen that overly concerns the public. But now we are paying the price, pretty much. Over the years/decades people that warned of the inevitability were just rebuked as conspiracy theorists.

    You know Zelenksy himself is one of those naysayers? Joe Biden warned him Russia was going to genocide him, and he brushed him off.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/bide...rce=reddit.com

    President Joe Biden said Friday that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy didn't want to hear US intelligence that indicated Russia was about to invade Ukraine.

    Biden made the comments while speaking to donors in Los Angeles, California, about his continued support for Ukraine, according to The Associated Press.

    "Nothing like this has happened since World War II. I know a lot of people thought I was maybe exaggerating," Biden said, according to the outlet. He added the US had data that showed Russian President Vladimir Putin was going to invade.

    "There was no doubt," Biden continued. "And Zelenskyy didn't want to hear it."

    Prior to launching a full-scale invasion on February 24, Russia spent weeks building up its troops on the Ukrainian border, prompting speculation over whether or not they were preparing to invade, an allegation the Kremlin denied.

    In late January, after US officials said it was likely Putin would invade soon, an unnamed Ukrainian official told CNN that Zelenskyy had told Biden to "calm down the messaging" about the invasion because it was creating a panic.

    On Monday, US Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines said that Biden even declassified intelligence about Russia's invasion in an attempt to convince skeptical allies it was actually going to happen.

    Since the war began, the US has provided tens of billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine, including thousands of weapons.

    Ukraine successfully held off invasions of some of its largest cities, including the capital of Kyiv and Kharkiv, but fighting continues in the eastern Donbas region, where Russian forces have refocused.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  5. #21025
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    One more time...No one was like "Hey Russia is super-cool" after WW2... but nobody was in much of a position to do anything about them either. Invading Russia is, histroically, a bad idea even when you're not coming out of a World War.
    The funny part of it is... Russia's history in major military conflicts has generally been one of "get their asses kicked until the enemy chases them so far back into the destroyed Russian interior until winter does the fighting for them and they can rally back." Like, if Napoleon or Hitler had just sat at the border instead of pursuing I think Russian military history would have gone far differently.

    Speaking of which, assuming this spills over into winter... wonder how well those Russian troops are going to fare in basically the same situation they relied on to defeat invading nations before.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #21026
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The funny part of it is... Russia's history in major military conflicts has generally been one of "get their asses kicked until the enemy chases them so far back into the destroyed Russian interior until winter does the fighting for them and they can rally back." Like, if Napoleon or Hitler had just sat at the border instead of pursuing I think Russian military history would have gone far differently.

    Speaking of which, assuming this spills over into winter... wonder how well those Russian troops are going to fare in basically the same situation they relied on to defeat invading nations before.
    They can't beat mud but snow is Russian comrade.

  7. #21027
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    plenty of things could have been done.
    Like what?

    Be specific.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The funny part of it is... Russia's history in major military conflicts has generally been one of "get their asses kicked until the enemy chases them so far back into the destroyed Russian interior until winter does the fighting for them and they can rally back." Like, if Napoleon or Hitler had just sat at the border instead of pursuing I think Russian military history would have gone far differently.

    Speaking of which, assuming this spills over into winter... wonder how well those Russian troops are going to fare in basically the same situation they relied on to defeat invading nations before.
    Well, thing of it is though...in order to do what YUPPIE thinks they should have...they would have to invade.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  8. #21028
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Like what?
    Be specific.
    I'm not advocating that America should have just nuked China and Russia. But it's worth remembering besides the pragmatism in not losing more in a final conventional assault, America nuked Japan as a show of "you fuck with this and this happens to you." It appropriately scared everyone at the time.

    America should have just capitalized on that fear to annex Russia and China or intimidate and control them. Instead, we slept and *they* got nukes and here we are.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  9. #21029
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    I'm not advocating that America should have just nuked China and Russia. But it's worth remembering besides the pragmatism in not losing more in a final conventional assault, America nuked Japan as a show of "you fuck with this and this happens to you." It appropriately scared everyone at the time.

    America should have just capitalized on that fear to annex Russia and China or intimidate and control them. Instead, we slept and *they* got nukes and here we are.
    Jesus fucking Christ man, go back to school. Or away from a computer and do something in real life. Seek help.

  10. #21030

  11. #21031
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    And this is why sanctions won't work:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/22/a...mic/index.html
    So EU/USA should not sanction Russia, because ruskies will eventually find different partners, but at a loss?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-06-22 at 06:28 AM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  12. #21032
    And for those of you that claim America reshaping Russia and China post-WW2 would have been wrong and Imperialist:

    Remember Japan and Germany used to be unspeakably evil warmongering nations of cannibals and absolutely xenophobic psychopaths destroying everything in their path like Russia now. They're cool since WW2 and produce the toys and memes you like now because we reformed them internally.

    That nice reformation is basically what should have happened with the other communist threats when we had the chance, if "annex" or "reform" sounded too ominous

    We could have had world peace short of the Middle East. Now we have a modern Hitler committing genocide with nuclear warheads as leverage.
    Last edited by YUPPIE; 2022-06-22 at 06:35 AM.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  13. #21033
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I said "seeing", i said nothing about "supporting".

    You see plenty of examples of people here perfectly willing to endure hardships to benefit of their country/ideology - and yet you're incredulous at Russians daring to do the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It's still higher price then a year ago, and way beyond profitability margin.
    When the USA invaded Irak for BS reason, plenty of American were not happy about it (even if the WMD had existed, you would have find people not happy about it). Cheering for its own nation to invaded another is morally low, very low. Think about that.

  14. #21034
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    So EU/USA should not sanction Russia, because ruskies will eventually find different partners, but at a loss?
    The people saying "Russia's economy won't collapse that hard!" really seem to be burying the lede on the whole "economy collapsing" part of that sentence.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  15. #21035
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    yeah that, my bad in "granddaughter" but I meant whoever this is:

    MAY 29th, 2022:

    "Russian President Vladimir Putin has long sought to shield his family and children from the public eye, shrouding their identities and whereabouts in secrecy even before the West began seeking to sanction them.

    Now, new details have emerged about the personal life of one of his two identified daughters thanks to a joint investigation published Thursday by the Russian news outlet Important Stories and the German news site Der Spiegel.
    Have you seen the pictures of them? They aren't his daughters they are female clones of him.

  16. #21036
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Have you seen the pictures of them? They aren't his daughters they are female clones of him.
    yeah sorry I'm not really the kind of person that cares for how others look. In this context, I'm more concerned with why they aren't forced back into Russia or used as bargaining chips. You saw in the headline they are covertly going back and forth to the hated West to satisfy their hedonism, right? Intercept that shit and capture them.
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

  17. #21037
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    So EU/USA should not sanction Russia, because ruskies will eventually find different partners, but at a loss?
    Europe is essentially sanctioning itself. Retarded plan to start with imho. Low income families are paying the price, not Russia. Even if they sell the barrel 70usd, they are still making a killer profit.

    I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again: If the current economic situation continues, governments will fall. We'll see people moving away from the center and torwards the left/right. This will start in September from Greece.

    Sanctions are NOT a viable plan, all I am saying.

  18. #21038
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Europe is essentially sanctioning itself. Retarded plan to start with imho. Low income families are paying the price, not Russia. Even if they sell the barrel 70usd, they are still making a killer profit.

    I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again: If the current economic situation continues, governments will fall. We'll see people moving away from the center and torwards the left/right. This will start in September from Greece.

    Sanctions are NOT a viable plan, all I am saying.
    Should we let Ukraine alone then ?

  19. #21039
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Europe is essentially sanctioning itself. Retarded plan to start with imho. Low income families are paying the price, not Russia. Even if they sell the barrel 70usd, they are still making a killer profit.

    I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again: If the current economic situation continues, governments will fall. We'll see people moving away from the center and torwards the left/right. This will start in September from Greece.

    Sanctions are NOT a viable plan, all I am saying.
    Russia making a profit in their sales of oil, meaning that they can still sell this one, singular export for more than it costs to produce it... does not mean their economy is actually staying afloat. Which is why it's predicted to lose decades of economic growth due entirely to sanctions, let alone the money they're throwing into a burning pit while they founder in Ukraine.

    Oil was all well and good to run a society in... the early 1800s. Modern society needs things like... computers... microchips... medicine... telecommunication equipment... things Russia can't replace and lack both the infrastructure and relevant knowledge to create and manufacture, and things that the rest of the world will continue to innovate on with or without Russian involvement.


    As for "but why is Europe sanctioning Russia? Why can't they just let Russia be to do whatever they want and just invade whomever? Sanctions are hurting Europe too!" it's because they've learned from letting errant dictators gallivant over Europe that the eventual price- economic and in human lives- is far higher than some temporary economic hardship.

    Maybe they figure that these temporary economic hardships they face will be far superior to letting Ukraine just fall to Russia, let alone wherever Russia wants to go and invade after that. Think of it this way: if you told the nations of Europe "hey, so basically we're about to reenact WW2, but this time you can choose to suffer some inflation to crush Germany right at the start and this whole Hitler thing never happens..." how many of them do you think would say "What? High gas prices? Forget it! Bah, bring Hitler 2.0 on."
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #21040
    Can we talk about the latest in war crimes than economics or "what could have been" for a change? 40 minutes ago:

    Russians are hunting down gay people in Ukraine and raping and castrating them(?)

    War crimes are a barbaric byproduct of conflict and combat. In an era of near incessant news coverage, the phrase has become a catch-all for heinous acts committed by soldiers and contractors in military theatres across the globe.

    Officially defined by the United Nations as “violations of international humanitarian law (treaty or customary law) that incur individual criminal responsibility under international law,” during the almost four months of Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine an unfathomable number of accusations have been levied against the terrorist intruders.

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/06/...e-can-imagine/
    "Truth...justice, honor, freedom! Vain indulgences, every one(...) I know what I want, and I take it. I take advantage of whatever I can, and discard that which I cannot. There is no room for sentiment or guilt."

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